Update on the T210 Jackson

Archive · #1 11-15-2005, 03:43 AM

Posted By: Hal Lewis

The Reserve HAS BEEN LOWERED.

You CAN see this on the Ebay page even if you had not previously bid on it.

Also, the bidding was previously up to $175k...

but now is down to $150k...

so I think the Reserve is BELOW the $175k bid and that bidder decided NOT to rebid. Yet.

http://cgi.ebay.com/1910-T210-OLD-MILL-JOE-JACKSON-ROOKIE-CARD-PSA-2-GOOD_W0QQitemZ8721941321QQcategoryZ31718QQrdZ1QQcm dZViewItem

Archive · #2 11-15-2005, 07:18 AM

Posted By: Jay Miller

I know there are only about ten copies of the Jackson known. My question is how does this one compare in "look" to other copies that people have seen. I know Corey's copy is only graded authentic but it is much more visually appealing. The image that Trevor posted was much nicer.

Archive · #3 11-15-2005, 08:10 AM

Posted By: barrysloate

According to the population reports the highest one PSA graded was a 2, and SGC hasn't graded any to date. That puts this one at the top of the list.

Archive · #4 11-15-2005, 08:21 AM

Posted By: Douglas

There are two PSA 2 T210 Jacksons.

Doug

Archive · #5 11-15-2005, 09:45 AM

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Gee, I wonder who was so interested in finding out the reserve that they falsely bid $1,000,000 and then withdrew it?

Archive · #6 11-15-2005, 10:14 AM

Posted By: Julie Vognar

and publish the resdults here?

Archive · #7 11-15-2005, 10:50 AM

Posted By: zach

It is a nice card but the other PSA 2 one is far superior. This one's borders are kinda going orange, the other psa 2s are bright red. BTW whoever is putting in a super high bid then taking it out should be banned from ebay. A reserve is placed so we don't know how high to bid and your only suppose to take out your bid if you bid the wrong amount which im sure isn't the case in the auction.

Archive · #8 11-15-2005, 11:02 AM

Posted By: Richard

It is possible that the seller lowered the reserve by 1 cent just to keep people guessing. If the seller really wants to only sell at the original reserve, and wanted to try to keep the integrity of the reserve intact (ie - keep the stupid people from stupid bidding while knowing that they will never hit the reserve), then that would be a good way to do it.

Well, at least that's what I would do.

Archive · #9 11-15-2005, 11:12 AM

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Zach, I agree. How pathetic and obsessed would you have to be to break the rules for no good reason other than pure selfishness?

Archive · #10 11-15-2005, 11:30 AM

Posted By: Cat

For some, determining the reserve is a bit pathetic and obsessive, but there seems to be at least one board member within this thread (and perhaps more) that has the means and a certain desire to purchase the card. In that instance determining the reserve is meaningful. It helps show that the true value, if the seller is trying to determine "value" without a completed sale, is "puffed up." It already appears that the bidding process on this one is a house of cards since it seems logical that the $188,000 bidder canceled his bid due to a drop in the reserve.

Archive · #11 11-15-2005, 11:37 AM

Posted By: Hal Lewis

Exactly.

If the seller now lowers his reserve to 125,000...

how do we know that all of the bidders in the $140k+ range won't ALSO rescind their bids as well???

The only way to know is to LOWER the reserve to the seller's REAL BOTTOM LINE (since obviously the previous reserve was NOT the lowest he would go).

Then again, the seller could CARE LESS what we think... and I would do the same thing if I was the seller. Set the reserve high and PRAY that someone tops it!!

Archive · #12 11-15-2005, 11:52 AM

Posted By: Cat

If he continues to drop the reserve, further bidders will fall, until he gets to your bid. In a sense what he has done may be brilliant. He has enticed bidders, who may not have the means to put in fallacy bids, and then someone like yourself comes in with a higher bid over those fallacy bidders and when he drops the reserve below your price, you decide to stick with your bid. But, I am not sure why this strategy would be better than a straight up reserve (cheaper EBay fees?)?

This auction reminds me of the time in November of 1963 when I was standing on this grassy knoll in Dallas, Texas....well, nevermind.

Archive · #13 11-15-2005, 11:58 AM

Posted By: Hal Lewis

I hope he gets to my bid!

I'll buy that card all day long for $100,000!!

Archive · #14 11-15-2005, 12:01 PM

Posted By: Hal Lewis

Maybe.

Archive · #15 11-15-2005, 12:14 PM

Posted By: Cat

Unfortunately, I think this seller has pretty high hopes.

Archive · #16 11-15-2005, 12:24 PM

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Well, I can tell you that I can afford the card and wouldn't resort to breaking an ebay rule (and violating the seller's intention in setting up his own auction on his terms). Is it so wrong to treat people the way you would want to be treated yourself? To find out the reserve in a backhanded way to advance your own position and get the card in a dishonest manner -- is even more pathetic.

Archive · #17 11-15-2005, 12:50 PM

Posted By: Cat

Jeff:

There are so many flaws in your reasoning, I shouldn't even respond. But, answer me these two questions: 1) What EBay rule was broken? The system allows a bidder to bid and cancel. There is no doubt that it is not in the spirit of the intent of the process, but lives within the rule; and 2) What are you talking about "get the card in a dishonest manner?" I personally do not see a way to attain this card without exchanging cold hard currency at a price the seller allows. Attaining as much information as possible, especially since all appearances indicate that he is not even going to sell the card at this auction, is just smart, not dishonest. EBay gives a lot of advantages to sellers, especially for a site that is supposed to be based on an auction format, so I personally have no ill feelings towards buyers that try to help there position.

For the sake of argument, my net worth is several times what the reserve price is for the card, but in my mind I CAN'T afford it. But then again, I can't afford $1,500 suits even though I may have the cash in my pocket.

Archive · #18 11-15-2005, 12:57 PM

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

The reason for withdrawing an ebay bid is if an error was made in inputting the bid amount, not to fabricate a reason to find out a hidden reserve amount, period. Why should one bidder receive information that the rest of the bidders in the ebay community are not privy to? And who are you to say that the seller doesn't really want to sell the card? If you don't like ebay's rules, don't use ebay. But don't start claiming that ebay gives sellers unfair advantages and that permits a bidder to bend the rules to his advantage to 'even things up.' Ever read Crime and Punishment?

Archive · #19 11-15-2005, 01:06 PM

Posted By: Charlie O'Neal

Why is everyone making such a big deal about not knowing what the reserve is. Here's a thought for the people that are actually interested in the card... email the seller and ask what the reserve is. If you are really not intested or can't afford the card what does all the bickering about the auction going to help? It seems that all the you are trying to do is put a black cloud over a legitmate auction.

Archive · #20 11-15-2005, 01:16 PM

Posted By: barrysloate

Well said Charlie.

Archive · #21 11-15-2005, 01:31 PM

Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

Auctions by their nature can be a dirty business. At the major auctions houses (e.g., Sothebys, Christies), it is perfectly legal for the auction house to have the house bid an item up to the hidden reserve, even though there are no real bidders at those house bids. The reason, of course, is to give the audience the impression that there is real interest at those bids, in the hope of enticing a bidder to reach the reserve who otherwise might not. I have always had a problem with the ethics of this practice, but it goes on ALL the time. Who's to say that sellers on ebay who run private auctions like the one currently being run for the T210 Jackson do not do the same thing. They have a hidden high reserve, get some friends to place bids below the reserve, and hope other prospective bidders are duped into believing there is real interest at those levels. This practice in my view is just as unethical as a bidder intentionally entering a very high bid in order to flush out the reserve, and then retract that bid. While I'm sure ebay proscribes bids by bidders who do not intend to buy the item, the system does allow such bidding to take place. How does anybody know that that isn't going on in this case? I'm not saying it is, but how can we know for sure? My point is that if an ebay seller wants to conduct an auction that minimizes any sort of shenanigans on either side, then he should just announce the reserve and make public the bidders' user IDs.

Archive · #22 11-15-2005, 01:54 PM

Posted By: barrysloate

Corey- While I agree in spirit with everything you just said, the only point I might make is that fake reserves and shill bidding can entice unwary bidders into going higher than they should in many cases, but I would like to think that at the 150K level bidders have their feet on the ground and have thought out exactly what they are doing. That's an awful lot of money to bid based purely on trying to guess the reserve. But I agree that these private auctions are dreadful because anyone can register under two different names and just bid his own auction up since nobody has a clue if anyone else is really participating.

Archive · #23 11-15-2005, 08:47 PM

Posted By: Julie Vognar

And i really don't think it's a mortal sin to sneak a peek at the reserve, nor do I see how this will assure the peeker the card...

Archive · #24 11-15-2005, 10:11 PM

Posted By: Anson

I'm just thinking about how nice it would be to have $150,000 of disposable income to bid on the card.

Oh well, it's fun to watch.

Archive · #25 11-15-2005, 10:21 PM

Posted By: Julie Vognar

Climbing again....

Archive · #26 11-19-2005, 02:35 PM

Posted By: Julie Vognar

..that the bidders are just playing with the seller--even those who are seriously interested in the card--because the consensus is that the reserve is too high.

Anyone agree? Disagree?
Well, we'll find out tonight. 9:55-12:55 in the continental U.S. If it's $175k I'm pretty surfe it will make it--unless, of course, people ARE just playing with the seller.

Archive · #27 11-20-2005, 11:53 AM

Posted By: Scott Gross

7 Hours; 10 min:

$172,100

Archive · #28 11-20-2005, 02:12 PM

Posted By: barrysloate

I'm going to guess that with 30 seconds left it still will not have met the reserve, but when it is over it will have sold. My guess for the final price: alot.

Archive · #29 11-20-2005, 02:19 PM

Posted By: Cat

I don't think I have seen another card with 20,000 page views. If I understand the counters correctly, if I click on that page 10 times it only counts once as long as it is from the same computer. If I go to a separate computer (separate IP address) it would register a second hit even if I use the same EBay handle. In other words the counters count IP address hits not handle hits. But anyway, that's a lot of views. It obviously has attracted many thousand non-card collectors.

I am going to guess that it ends right where it is at and doesn't sell.

Archive · #30 11-20-2005, 02:25 PM

Posted By: barrysloate

Cat- Looks like we'll have to wager a vanilla milk shake (my standard bet) on whether or not it sells.

Archive · #31 11-20-2005, 03:18 PM

Posted By: Steve

My question is how many here feel like the seller and think this card should have been a 3? ANYONE?

Steve

Archive · #32 11-20-2005, 03:40 PM

Posted By: JudgeDred (Fred)

Maybe a PRO "3".

Archive · #33 11-20-2005, 03:43 PM

Posted By: Cat

Barry...

Vanilla Milk Shake it is. Unfortunately we live on opposite coasts, so it could be a while before one of us collects.

Archive · #34 11-20-2005, 04:06 PM

Posted By: Julie Vognar

2 hours+ left, and everyone is pussyfooting around, nobody bidding 175 (likely reserve...?). Hope not. Hope it sells!

Archive · #35 11-20-2005, 07:02 PM

Posted By: Alan

looks like someone owes someone a milkshake. didnt make the reserve

Archive · #36 11-20-2005, 11:13 PM

Posted By: Julie Vognar

..............

Archive · #37 11-20-2005, 11:33 PM

Posted By: Alan

but it all honesty, did you ever really think it would sell? i think of the listing as an advertisement, i.e. "just so you card collectors know, i have this card." they set a pretty high reserve on that card and then if they got lucky and it sold, then they would be happy. but now at least, people know about the card. if you are trying to "create" the next t206 honus wagner, then you need to get the PR/spin/hype machine working early. See, ever since I was a kid, I knew what the Honus Wagner card was. Growing up, if someone asked me what the most valuable card was, I could tell them that it was the Honus Wagner card. heck, they used to sell reprints of the card in my elementary school. some company, the name of which escapes me now, used to have a book catalog that they handed out to us at school, and we could go home and together with our parents we could order books. invariably, EVERY kid would want the baseball card book because it had reprints of famous cards in it. so you'd place your order for some books and if you were lucky, your parent bought you the wagner reprint too. come dec, the books/wagner would be delivered. let's be honest. there are PLENTY of cards scarcer than the wagner. the story told about why the wagner card is so rare is an outright lie. it is a LEGEND. and you can't kill a legend. the wagner card sits in the hall of fame. to me, forever, the king of all cards will forever be the t206 wagner. and that's that.

Archive · #38 11-21-2005, 03:49 AM

Posted By: barrysloate

Oh well... milk shakes don't travel well in the mail, so feel free to have one on me and send me the bill. Just what was the point of that auction? Wouldn't you imagine that at 172K there was a tad of a profit in there for the owner of the card?

Archive · #39 11-21-2005, 04:36 AM

Posted By: Hal Lewis

Barry:

I was wondering the same thing... but maybe the seller (who is selling it on consignment for someone else) is going to try to use "Second Chance" to sell it for $172k now.

Archive · #40 11-21-2005, 04:54 AM

Posted By: barrysloate

Hal- You might be right. Maybe the seller was trying to set a market value without being obligated to sell it. But it's always harder to sell using "second chance." That buyer's rush of adrenaline is gone and the buyer always becomes more wary and less likely to pull the trigger. You never know.

Archive · #41 11-21-2005, 05:17 AM

Posted By: Jay Miller

Tough to sell what I believe is a $100K card (or less) for $172K. Bidding meant nothing when bidders knew they were below the reserve.

Archive · #42 11-21-2005, 05:23 AM

Posted By: Hal Lewis

I agree Jay...

but I have to admit that there are probably tens of thousands of people across the World who will run across this auction and see that the reserve was not met...

and just assume that the card is therefore worth MORE than $172,000.

In other words...

this was a GREAT ADVERTISING MOVE for the owner of the card.

We should put ALL of our cards up on EBay for PRIVATE AUCTIONS with $1,000,000 reserves...

and then shill them up to $950,000!!!

Maybe some foreign investor will then feel like he is getting a deal when he buys them all for $750,000 each!!!

Archive · #43 11-21-2005, 06:06 AM

Posted By: Jay Miller

172,000 lira maybe; $172,000 no.

Archive · #44 11-21-2005, 06:43 AM

Posted By: Robert {Bigb13}

I think the Psa Authentic looks better than this one and that went for $92,000. Rob

Archive · #45 11-21-2005, 07:01 AM

Posted By: pete ullman

What is any card "worth?" It is worth what any buyer feels it's worth to him/her. I don't feel this card is worth anywhere near $170 K.

But I often purchase cards at a price I feel is acceptable to me...regardless of book value.

That was kinda exciting though, eh?

Good luck on that plank Hal.

pete in mn

Archive · #46 11-21-2005, 07:05 AM

Posted By: Hal Lewis

Thanks!

Refreshing to see a real reserve and not a ridiculous one!

Granted, $35k is high for the card...

so hopefully NOBODY else will bid on it!!!

Archive · #47 11-21-2005, 07:08 AM

Posted By: pete ullman

r u going for a t206 set hal?

Archive · #48 11-21-2005, 07:17 AM

Posted By: Hal Lewis

No, only HOF's.

No interest in Doyle or Magie(ee), etc.

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