T213-1s and T206 Carolina Brights (Fraud/Fakes) by Daniel Desmond

[Leon]

Are these real?

[ullmandds]

i think so?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

look good to me fwiw

EDIT: Wait, the front of the coupons font looks like T206. Either there's a type I don't know about or soething's weird here. I know there are black letters as well as blue, but even those don't look remotely the same as T206 printing.

EDIT 2x: OK just found a Hunter T213 with print that looks the same as T206.Apparently the T213-1's look this way. Super rare apparently, if real. Ignore my uninformed opinions please!

[Sean]

They absolutely appear to be real IMO.

[that T206 Guy]

So why do some Have Blue Lettering and Some Have Brown Lettering?

[Steve D]

Originally Posted by that T206 Guy

So why do some Have Blue Lettering and Some Have Brown Lettering?

T213-1's have brown lettering, while T213-2 and T213-3 have blue lettering.

Steve

[Luke]

I'd be pretty suspicious given the recent fake backs being made of each. I'd have a lot of questions (first question is always "Where are all the Piedmonts?"). I don't love the CB. I'd want to see it in person and take some high res scans. The telltale with the fakes is the ink never sits quite right on the paper and just looks wrong up close.

Worries aside, they do look good. If I had to say good or bad just based on those scans, I'd say good.

[that T206 Guy]

Originally Posted by Steve D

T213-1's have brown lettering, while T213-2 and T213-3 have blue lettering.

Steve

I see.

So they were Released in Batches like 1952 Topps.

Can the Same Players be Found with Both Blue and Brown Lettering?

Or Does Each Player just have one Color or the Other?

[tedzan]

Hi Leon

Here's my Chase (CB) and the one you show looks authentic.


.



The 6 guys with 1910 COUPON are are confirmed....and, they look too beat to have been re-backed. They're good.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Luke]

If you compare Ted's Carolina Brights Chase (great cards btw) to the one in the original post, you can see what I am worried about. The ink on the back is not deep and dark like Ted's. It's possible the Chase in the OP is legit and it is just faded or has a lot of surface wear. But its also possible that it's a fake that never had the ink applied as fully as a real one. I'd have to see it up close to make a determination.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by that T206 Guy

I see.

So they were Released in Batches like 1952 Topps.

Can the Same Players be Found with Both Blue and Brown Lettering?

Or Does Each Player just have one Color or the Other?

Type- 1s were produced around 1910 and have brown ink. Types 2 + 3 were produce in 1914 and 1919 and have blue ink.

Any players that were in the first and second sets would feature both colors of ink. The Evers in the first post is one example.

[that T206 Guy]

Originally Posted by Sean

Type- 1s were produced around 1910 and have brown ink. Types 2 + 3 were produce in 1914 and 1919 and have blue ink.

Any players that were in the first and second sets would feature both colors of ink. The Evers in the first post is one example.

Great info and Thank You Sean.

I learn so much on this Site

[realbigfatdog]

Chase for sale???



Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[Leon]

Originally Posted by realbigfatdog

Chase for sale???

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

No, I don't think so. They aren't mine.

[realbigfatdog]

Bummer, lol

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[mrvster]

be careful on the c. brights .......I would question it.....I agree with Luke, I thought the same thing!!..ink on back doesn't look right to me...their is someone mixing fake"rare" backs with coupons (ask bryan L) they are making great fakes apparently lately, only way to tell is in person or tpg , (hope this helps my friend

[ullmandds]

Well obviously I prefer the ones with darker strikes on the reverse I have also owned coupons and rare back t206 is with lighter backs so that is not a giveaway

[mrvster]

100 % agree with you....there are def some with lighter and faded ink ones....

its tough to tell from the scans without seeing in person, looks almost good in the scan to me, but I am suspect on this one...

someone, from what bryan L was saying, was taking real fronts and "lightly sanding the backs down" and re printing rare backs

scammers are assholes!

[Sean]

Leon, are you in a position to touch the Coupons? Since they are much thinner than other cards, perhaps you can tell that way.

I own one Coupon Type-1. When I handed it to my girlfriend (who has handled hundreds of T206s) she immediately said "fake." I had to explain to her that it wasn't a T206 and was supposed to be thinner.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Sean

Leon, are you in a position to touch the Coupons? Since they are much thinner than other cards, perhaps you can tell that way.

I own one Coupon Type-1. When I handed it to my girlfriend (who has handled hundreds of T206s) she immediately said "fake." I had to explain to her that it wasn't a T206 and was supposed to be thinner.

Yes I think it would be impossible to fake the stock of a type one coupon!

[Luke]

The same guy that was (is?) making the Carolina Brights fakes was also making some pretty good looking Type 1 Coupon fakes.

[buymycards]

A loupe would provide an answer pretty quickly, but if you don't have the cards in hand, that won't work, along with Sean's suggestion of checking the card stock.

I think they are OK, but it is a little unusual to come across this many Type I's that don't have the circle of paper loss on the back.

[bigfish]

Looking at the fronts and the backs... I can’t see the same type of creases on the backs. These are thin cards. I would be skeptical based upon this fact.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by bigfish

Looking at the fronts and the backs... I can’t see the same type of creases on the backs. These are thin cards. I would be skeptical based upon this fact.

I am always skeptical.

[Rhotchkiss]

If they are fakes, they are real good fakes. Also, why make fakes with paper loss on (rare) backs and/or crease the cards; I suppose this makes them look more “authentic” but at risk if seriously devaluing. Of the fakes made by “this guy”, did they typically have back damage and/or were/are they beaters?

Does anyone know the name of the counterfeiter?

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

If they are fakes, they are real good fakes. Also, why make fakes with paper loss on (rare) backs and/or crease the cards; I suppose this makes them look more “authentic” but at risk if seriously devaluing. Of the fakes made by “this guy”, did they typically have back damage and/or were/are they beaters?

Does anyone know the name of the counterfeiter?

its way more common for fakes to be beaters.

[Luke]

Both, weirdly. Some were really low grade and bad fakes, while others were nice looking VGish cards. Some were attached to thin paper in an attempt to kind of hide the backs. On the nice ones, the edges lined up perfectly even though the back was a fake printed on a different type of paper.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

its way more common for fakes to be beaters.

Are you sure Pete? I though all counterfeit cards are perfectly centered examples of super star players worth a lot of $. I suppose next you will tell me people forge autographs of common players.

[Vintagecatcher]

Leon's examples also seem to have "rounded corners" which look very uniform between the examples which aren't present with Ted's examples.

Patrick

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Are you sure Pete? I though all counterfeit cards are perfectly centered examples of super star players worth a lot of $. I suppose next you will tell me people forge autographs of common players.

i meant fakes like t213 I's!!! Although this issue is super prone to being found in bad creased condition. If they're fake...they're very good in appearance...but I cannot believe the thin stock can be faked very well?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Vintagecatcher

Leon's examples also seem to have "rounded corners" which look very uniform between the examples which aren't present with Ted's examples.

Patrick

I do have to say that the rounded corners argument isn't a perfect one. I recently bought a large lot of T206's with nearly perfectly and identically rounded corners. They were just fine. They had been rubber banded together for years and so had worn in what looked like a suspicious manner, but it made perfect sense.

[that T206 Guy]

Originally Posted by Sean

Leon, are you in a position to touch the Coupons? Since they are much thinner than other cards, perhaps you can tell that way.

I own one Coupon Type-1. When I handed it to my girlfriend (who has handled hundreds of T206s) she immediately said "fake." I had to explain to her that it wasn't a T206 and was supposed to be thinner.

Are they "Cracker Jack" Thin?

[Sean]

I don't know, I've never held a raw Cracker Jack.

[Leon]

1914 Cracker Jacks are almost paper thin similar to T213-1 Coupons. The 1915 Cracker Jacks and T213-2 and T213-3 Coupons were on heavier card stock.

At least one of these pictured IS real But can you tell which?
.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Leon, please tell me you changed the thread title and it didn't originally say T213-1 If it did I'm an even bigger boob than I originally thought

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Leon, please tell me you changed the thread title and it didn't originally say T213[B]-1[/B If it did I'm an even bigger boob than I originally thought

Title hasn't been changed. If it were changed (on any post) you would see a little "edit" tag at the bottom of the post.

[Luke]

I'm looking at these cards again but this time on my phone and realized I can actually zoom in better than on my desktop. I dont really like any of them with the exception of Lennox now that I have a closer look. But I'd be too skeptical of them all to want to buy Lennox.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Leon, please tell me you changed the thread title and it didn't originally say T213-1 If it did I'm an even bigger boob than I originally thought

Originally Posted by Leon

Title hasn't been changed. If it were changed (on any post) you would see a little "edit" tag at the bottom of the post.

Great, so I'm a huge boob.

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by Luke

I'm looking at these cards again but this time on my phone and realized I can actually zoom in better than on my desktop. I dont really like any of them with the exception of Lennox now that I have a closer look. But I'd be too skeptical of them all to want to buy Lennox.

Hi Luke, is it the fronts or the backs that concerns you? Or both?

[Luke]

The backs. The fronts look like real T206s. I've examined a few of these fakes and the fronts are always real.

[that T206 Guy]

Originally Posted by Leon

1914 Cracker Jacks are almost paper thin similar to T213-1 Coupons. The 1915 Cracker Jacks and T213-2 and T213-3 Coupons were on heavier card stock.

At least one of these pictured IS real But can you tell which?
.

Wow, I have a 1915 Cracker Jack that is Super Thin.

I didn't think Cards could get any Thinner.

I didn't know the 1914 was Thinner than 1915.

Thanks Leon

P.S. Are there any other Tobacco Sets that are "Thin" or are Most the Thickness of a T206 (Which is Still a lot Thinner than Post War Cards).

[rdixon1208]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Great, so I'm a huge boob.

I like huge boobs

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

LOL, so I got that goin' for me, which is nice.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by that T206 Guy

Wow, I have a 1915 Cracker Jack that is Super Thin.

I didn't think Cards could get any Thinner.

I didn't know the 1914 was Thinner than 1915.

Thanks Leon

P.S. Are there any other Tobacco Sets that are "Thin" or are Most the Thickness of a T206 (Which is Still a lot Thinner than Post War Cards).

Yes, but if I told ya' I would have to kill ya'!! And relatively speaking I don't think T206 card stock is thin with respect to other cards of the period. Now if you get a T216 with a Virginia Extra back, that is a very thin one too.

[RCMcKenzie]

They look okay to me. I remember reading a Lipset article from like 40 years ago that they all can be faked. They have fake Vermeer's in museums. These look okay to me fwiw. Are there any nice looking fake T213-1 Bob Rhoades for sale?

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Are there any nice looking fake T213-1 Bob Rhoades for sale?

Do you prefer the fake to be a beater, or mid-grade?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

Do you prefer the fake to be a beater, or mid-grade?

LOL....get all you can and recoup!! The hobby doesn't care about fraud all it cares about is PWCC shipping cost, don't ya' know?

Hint- 2 of the 7 listed above are real, ALL have real T206 fronts, skinned (except the 2), with inkjet printer printed backs.

[judsonhamlin]

I'll guess Starr and Lennox are real

[SetBuilder]

The fake backs lack crisp lines. From the scan, some of the lines look slightly blurred.

If they sanded the backs off, they destroyed the sizing layer in the process, making the paper porous, which would cause a slight amount of bleeding.

[SMPEP]

Originally Posted by judsonhamlin

I'll guess Starr and Lennox are real

+1 - those were my guesses as well.

Cheers,
Patrick