ethical question

[Peter_Spaeth]

Let's say you're a dealer or regular seller. You sell someone a graded card. A year or more later, the card is outed by clear evidence as having been altered, and the seller requests a refund. Let's assume you didn't know it was altered when you sold it. Should you refund or is it now the buyer's problem? Looking for people's thoughts on the ethical issue, not a legal analysis over whether the buyer would have a claim for rescission under mutual mistake or a related doctrine.

[Throttlesteer]

Liability would reside with the TPG. Sellers aren't necessarily experts and generally dont examine all of their graded cards with a loupe. That's what TPGs are supposed to be doing.

[bnorth]

Personally I would refund the $ because not refunding would make me feel like a POS. I would also make sure everyone knew I done the right thing to help my business grow.

Then again IF I was the one altering the cards and submitting them I would tell the sucker to pound sand. Then I would just act like nothing happened because most collectors are lemmings at best.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Throttlesteer

Liability would reside with the TPG. Sellers aren't necessarily experts and generally dont examine all of their graded cards with a loupe. That's what TPGs are supposed to be doing.

And the seller could take the card back and deal with the TPG himself. Why as between innocents in the transaction does that burden lie with the buyer not the seller who sold a bad card, even if unwittingly?

[edhans]

Originally Posted by Throttlesteer

Liability would reside with the TPG. Sellers aren't necessarily experts and generally dont examine all of their graded cards with a loupe. That's what TPGs are supposed to be doing.

I couldn't disagree with this more. The seller is entirely responsible for the product he sells. That product is the card, not some third party's opinion. Even in a perfect world, where the grading companies had a shred of competence or ethics, it is the seller's responsibility to warrant the product he sells. If an item proves to be misrepresented, the seller should refund, no questions asked. In the graded card scenario, he would likely have some recourse against the grading company.

[vintagetoppsguy]

I would not refund the buyer. Here's why and I'll use a similar example.

Let's say you make your living buying and selling cars. You purchase a car through the auto action with the intention to resell it for a profit. A year later, the car has a transmission problem, however the car does have the remainder of it's factory warranty. Do you refund the buyer, or would you expect the buyer to deal with manufacturer? I think the answer is obvious to any logical person.

The buyer of the card should deal with the TPG regarding their guarantee, just as the buyer of the car should deal with the manufacturer regarding the warranty.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I would not refund the buyer. Here's why and I'll use a similar example.

Let's say you make your living buying and selling cars. You purchase a car through the auto action with the intention to resell it for a profit. A year later, the car has a transmission problem, however the car does have the remainder of it's factory warranty. Do you refund the buyer, or would you expect the buyer to deal with manufacturer? I think the answer is obvious to any logical person.

The buyer of the card should deal with the TPG regarding their guarantee, just as the buyer of the car should deal with the manufacturer regarding the warranty.

Suppose the car had a defective transmission when it was sold. Same analysis? Not advocating for any position here, just trying to flesh out the question.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Suppose the car had a defective transmission when it was sold. Same analysis? Not advocating for any position here, just trying to flesh out the question.

Ok, let's assume the car had a bad transmission at the time of sale. Whether the seller really was unaware or did know and just wanted to make a quick buck, the answer is still the same either way. The car has a warranty - a guarantee - and its up to the owner (the new buyer of the car) to resolve warranty issues with the party that makes the warranty (guarantee). This is the way it works in everyday life. I'm not sure why we look at cards differently.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Ok, let's assume the car had a bad transmission at the time of sale. Whether the seller really was unaware or did know and just wanted to make a quick buck, the answer is still the same either way. The car has a warranty - a guarantee - and its up to the owner (the new buyer of the car) to resolve warranty issues with the party that makes the warranty (guarantee). This is the way it works in everyday life. I'm not sure why we look at cards differently.

Does it work that way in real life? There are lemon laws in many states entitling buyers to return defective vehicles.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Does it work that way in real life? There are lemon laws in many states entitling buyers to return defective vehicles.

True, but only after all warranty claims have been exhausted.

[SMPEP]

There's a variety of scenarios to consider:

First, if you were the original submitter to the TPG, then you absolutely should take the card back no matter what and go after the TPG. You brought the altered card into the hobby by accident. (NOTE: I assume by accident in this case, because let's face it, if you were the person who did the undetected alteration - you're not accepting a return no matter what. You have no honor or ethics and have already demonstrated that.) If you are the original submitter to the TPG though, you have direct claim on the TPG, and the TPG should pay for their mistake. That's who really bears the ultimate responsibility in every case.


If you were a purchaser and then reseller of the card, then I think It's important what you disclosed in the auction.

I've seen a lot of sellers on Ebay say" No returns on graded cards." In that case I think it's fair not to accept the return. You made your policy clear to the buyer. The buyer knew they should rely on the TPG opinion. The buyer knew you would not accept a return. So, they made an fully informed choice on the purchase.

If the seller hasn't stated this policy (and is not within your usual return policy time frame), then that's a gray area. As someone who only buys or sells TPG cards by accident (because they were part of a lot of cards for example), I do not know how to evaluate cards the way a TPG does. As a seller, I would rely that the TPG got it right, and would sell it as such. I would have no idea that it isn't a legitimate grade. I also may not know who I bought that card from, and even if I did, I'd have no way to know if that seller would take the card back. So, in my opinion, I don't think accepting or rejecting the return is CLEARLY right or wrong in this case. I'd say that's up to the individual seller and their conscious and business model.

Cheers,
Patrick

[Hxcmilkshake]

I would work with the buyer as I wouldn't want to lose a customer. First I'd tell him to go thru the TPG if that fails I would refund him probably. Or make some kind of deal with him.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[frankbmd]

Who has added value to the card?

A. The Card Doctor

B. The Card Doctor's Enabler

C. The Third Party Grader

D. The (Second, Third, Fourth, Fifth, etc) Reseller

E. All of the Above

Ethically I think most would give D a pass and therefore E would not be correct.

For A, B, or C to suggest that any party in D should be responsible for a refund is not ethical in my opinion.

If there are 12 innocent resellers following the chain back to A, B or C would be a monumental task involving multiple individuals who are not culpable, legally or ethically.

I keep records of my collection including purchase prices, sellers, buyers, cert numbers, etc. pedominantly for my present collection. I have some information related to BST sales, but for the most part once a card is no longer part of my collection, much of the records kept for that card are deleted. I think auction house archives do a better job in record keeping than I going backward, but I would predict that most collectors in the hobby do not, nor are they ethically challenged.

[TMKenKen]

There is no way that I would feel legally or ethically obligated to do so. Every sale/exchange/trade to another hobbyist or buyer I make as someone who is not in the business of being a dealer or broker is AS IS. I make no express or implied warranty as to condition or authenticity. Buyer is on his own to make that determination. More than likely I was stuck in the first place, and I suspect, without direct privity of contract with the TPG, I may have difficulty getting the TPG to refund me. More importantly, without direct privity if I have the legal right to do so, then my Buyer does so as well.

As someone, maybe many, pointed out the burden should lie with the TPG as it is aware that all future owners of the graded card are relying upon the inspection, authentication and grading. All BFP's holding the card should be able to avail itself of the guaranty. I am not certain that disclaimers, statutes of limitation etc. create that legal liability however.

Now, if I were aware before I sold, that is another issue, but that isn't the premise here.