If you were starting a team today......

[oldjudge]

In the post season only one of the big three performed better than he did during the regular season—Aaron. Mays stunk during the post season and Mantle had a lower batting average, SLG, and OBP than he had during the regular season. He did hit 18 HRs, but he was in the WS virtually every year from his rookie season until 1964. My choice would be Aaron.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

In the post season only one of the big three performed better than he did during the regular season—Aaron. Mays stunk during the post season and Mantle had a lower batting average, SLG, and OBP than he had during the regular season. He did hit 18 HRs, but he was in the WS virtually every year from his rookie season until 1964. My choice would be Aaron.

There's more than one way to help win a World Series...

[darwinbulldog]

Mays

[obcbobd]

From the list - Mays

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by Mark17

There's more than one way to help win a World Series...

Yes, Mays' ONE way....
As opposed to Mantle's World Series-record 18 home runs, 40 RBIs, 26 extra-base hits and 42 runs.

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

In the post season only one of the big three performed better than he did during the regular season—Aaron. Mays stunk during the post season and Mantle had a lower batting average, SLG, and OBP than he had during the regular season. He did hit 18 HRs, but he was in the WS virtually every year from his rookie season until 1964. My choice would be Aaron.

The problem with this is that Aaron was only able to deliver ONE postseason championship...
And for people mentioning Williams, he never brought home a single World Series win.
What's more important in the end... stats? Or championships?
Considering this, Mantle is king.

[KCRfan1]

The Yankee teams, back in the day, were loaded with talent. Aaron and Williams didn't have the luxury that Mantle had in that respect if we're looking only at championships. Put Aaron or Williams on those same Yankee teams that Mantle played on, and both players bring home the hardware too.

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by KCRfan1

The Yankee teams, back in the day, were loaded with talent. Aaron and Williams didn't have the luxury that Mantle had in that respect if we're looking only at championships. Put Aaron or Williams on those same Yankee teams that Mantle played on, and both players bring home the hardware too.

Extremely doubtful.
The Yankees were a powerhouse first and foremost BECAUSE of Mantle.
And are you honestly going to say Aaron or Williams were as clutch??

[egri]

The Yankees had pitching depth that far exceeded the Red Sox, and Yankee management integrated the team before Tom Yawkey did. He had the first shot at Willie Mays and Ernie Banks, and passed on both.

[Touch'EmAll]

Making the assumption the careers are what they are - cannot change, just that they are all rookies at same time.

In post-season play, Hank Aaron easily tops them all: Mays BA .247, SLG .337, OPS .660 (really poor) - Mantle BA .257, SLG .535, OPS .908 - Hank Aaron BA .362, SLG .710, OPS 1.116 (now you're talkin'!)

From year #1 to year #last = Hank Aaron, bingo!

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

Making the assumption the careers are what they are - cannot change, just that they are all rookies at same time.

In post-season play, Hank Aaron easily tops them all: Mays BA .247, SLG .337, OPS .660 (really poor) - Mantle BA .257, SLG .535, OPS .908 - Hank Aaron BA .362, SLG .710, OPS 1.116 (now you're talkin'!)

From year #1 to year #last = Hank Aaron, bingo!

Who are you kidding ! ?

How about making a fair comparison ? ?

Aaron was only in two World Series (1957 & 1958)
Totals.... BA= .362, HR= 3, RBI = 9, SLG = .786 (1957) and .407 (1958)

Compare that with the 1952 and 1960 World Series totals...…
Mantle BA = .355, HR = 5, RBI = 13, SLG = .655 (1952) and .800 (1960)

Hey guy
I am fortunate (and old enough) to having seen all these stars play since 1947.
Unless you have, too, there is no way you can actually appreciate any of them.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Huysmans

Extremely doubtful.
The Yankees were a powerhouse first and foremost BECAUSE of Mantle.
And are you honestly going to say Aaron or Williams were as clutch??

If Mantle was THE reason the Yankees won so many pennants, then why did he only win 1/3 of the Yankee MVP awards during the 1951-1964 period?

Yankee MVPs:

1951 AL Yogi Berra
1954 AL Yogi Berra
1955 AL Yogi Berra
1956 AL Mickey Mantle
1957 AL Mickey Mantle
1960 AL Roger Maris
1961 AL Roger Maris
1962 AL Mickey Mantle
1963 AL Elston Howard

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by Mark17

If Mantle was THE reason the Yankees won so many pennants, then why did he only win 1/3 of the Yankee MVP awards during the 1951-1964 period?

Yankee MVPs:

1951 AL Yogi Berra
1954 AL Yogi Berra
1955 AL Yogi Berra
1956 AL Mickey Mantle
1957 AL Mickey Mantle
1960 AL Roger Maris
1961 AL Roger Maris
1962 AL Mickey Mantle
1963 AL Elston Howard

If this had any realistic bearing.... why aren't Maris, Berra or Howard considered better players than Mantle??? NO ONE being honest would even consider that, so this is meaningless. There have been discussions on here whether Maris is even HOF material, with the majority feeling he isn't (I think he is), so what relevance are MVP awards in the big picture?
When the things that are most important are considered, his World Series records and total Fall Classic victories... Mantle is tops.

[oldjudge]

I was an avid Yankee fan growing up in the Bronx. The guys I thought of as clutch players were Berra and Skowron, not Mantle. Williams or Aaron could have absolutely won as many championships or more if they were on the Yankees instead of Mantle.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Huysmans

If this had any realistic bearing.... why aren't Maris, Berra or Howard considered better players than Mantle??? NO ONE being honest would even consider that, so this is meaningless. There have been discussions on here whether Maris is even HOF material, with the majority feeling he isn't (I think he is), so what relevance are MVP awards in the big picture?
When the things that are most important are considered, his World Series records and total Fall Classic victories... Mantle is tops.

I am not saying Mantle wasn't the overall best player on his team. Just like Mays was the best on the Giants, Aaron on the Braves, Clemente on the Pirates, and Williams on the Red Sox.

What I AM saying is that 6 times out of 9, when the sportswriters voted on who was the single Yankee most responsible for them winning the pennant during that given year, they named one of Mickey's teammates instead of him.

Point is, he was on a great team surrounded by all sorts of talent, so you can't give him all the credit for his many post-season opportunities. In 1962, Mantle played only 123 games, and in 1963 he played in only 65 games, but both years the Yankees won the pennant. In other words, they could win even with Mantle not in the lineup on a regular basis.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Huysmans

Extremely doubtful.
The Yankees were a powerhouse first and foremost BECAUSE of Mantle.
And are you honestly going to say Aaron or Williams were as clutch??

Williams did poorly in his one World Series. I think he was an amazing player, but Id have to accept that he wasn't exactly "clutch" at times.


Mantle had a few good series, and a number of really poor ones. 1961, 62, 63 he batted under .200 and a few of the earlier ones weren't great either. Overall, he batted 40 points under his career average in the series.

That's not exacly "clutch" either.


Aaron in the WS batted 59 points above his lifetime average, and to eliminate the complaint that the lifetime average is reduced by the later part of his career, in 57 he was .393, 71 points above his average that year. in 58, .333 was only 7 points above that years average.


So yes Aaron was more clutch than Mantle.

[egri]

Originally Posted by steve B

Williams did poorly in his one World Series. I think he was an amazing player, but Id have to accept that he wasn't exactly "clutch" at times.

He was playing injured; the week before the series started, he was hit in the elbow during an exhibition game. Besides, he crash landed a jet that the North Koreans put 250 holes in and walked away from it. I’d say that is far more “clutch” than anything that has ever happened on a ball field.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by egri

He was playing injured; the week before the series started, he was hit in the elbow during an exhibition game. Besides, he crash landed a jet that the North Koreans put 250 holes in and walked away from it. I’d say that is far more “clutch” than anything that has ever happened on a ball field.

I knew about the plane, not about the injury.


Williams was certainly among the greatest. And did have a number of clutch moments. Batting for the title instead of sitting, Hr in his last AB....

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by steve B

Williams did poorly in his one World Series. I think he was an amazing player, but Id have to accept that he wasn't exactly "clutch" at times.

1941 All Star Game. Two out, two on, down by a run, bottom of the ninth. Not only does Williams end the game with a home run, he absolutely crushes it off the facing of the upper deck in Detroit.

1941 September 28. With a chance to sit out the double-header and finish with a .400 average (which hasn't been done in the 77 years since,) Ted earns it, going 4-5 in the first game and 2-3 in the second game to finish at .406.

1960, also September 28, in his final at-bat, Ted does what he so very much wanted to do - he ends his career with a home run.

Williams was injured in the 1946 Series, but too much of a man to alibi about it. It isn't fair to say that because he had one poor Series he wasn't "clutch."