The Goodwin Plank and Magie are TRIMMED!

[atx840]

Bringing this one back from the past.

[Runscott]

Chris, I didn't realize that it had been roughed up in order to get the numerical grade. That's something that would not have happened prior to the birth of slabbing

I just took the Speaker out and looped the borders very carefully - no problems at all. It's amazing how much better these old cards look without any plastic in the way.

[wonkaticket]

Ahhh the factory cut Hunt Plank (roll eyes)...to slab PSA 3 to Ebay to profit land...

[martyp]

Originally Posted by danmckee

Hi Mike and thanks for posting.

Yes you are correct, I don't know any of this for certain. I do know that handling tobacco cards for years and buying many raw collections that a legit angle cut has always had the opposite angle cut on the other border.

That is why I was hoping Jim R or Tim C or Ted Z could comment on what they know of the cutting practice. I may be mistaking but I thought 1 or all of them did some research on that part. Tim C maybe?

thanks again for the interesting comments
dan

Dan, you got me thinking about how Mike's question and your comment about the other border. What if this card was the bottom card on the sheet and all the cuttins was from the top down. Were there bottom borders on the sheets that had to be cut off like the Topps cards or did the bottom edge of the sheet become the bottom edge of the card?
Marty

[FrankWakefield]

"It's amazing how much better these old cards look without any plastic in the way." Sounds to me like Scott has his eyes open, looking at cards, instead of looking at slip numbers. A few years ago I started saving those little slips. Maybe one day some collectors will zero in on the slips, and forgo the cards that some of us collect.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by martyp

Dan, you got me thinking about how Mike's question and your comment about the other border. What if this card was the bottom card on the sheet and all the cuttins was from the top down. Were there bottom borders on the sheets that had to be cut off like the Topps cards or did the bottom edge of the sheet become the bottom edge of the card?
Marty

Yes, the sheet would have had a margin on all 4 sides.

Steve B

[Exhibitman]

Dan: I don't know about the Cobb; I haven't seen it in person. I am not comfortable definitively opining on a card from a scan in a slab.

Chris: by "crap" I meant from a quality control standpoint, my point in context being that we've all seen T206s that were so badly miscut or misprinted that they can only be viewed as failures of quality control, and if those got out why is it impossible to conceive of a properly printed P150 Plank getting out.

As for a non-parallel cut, it could happen if the sheet slipped in the cutter, depending on the cutting device used. I have a number of Topps cards that are not quite parallelograms in shape.

[travrosty]

Eventually people will collect the holders, and the cards won't be inside.

It will be like gold, they will be in an off-site location, and the holders with the grade can be proudly and prominently displayed in people's homes, but with no cards in the holders.

It will be just a receipt of ownership per se that you own the card and the card is stored somewhere else for you, in a central repository. But the holder with the name of the card and grade on it will make one's chest swell with pride, because that's what matters.

People will say, "Did you see my latest acquisition? Isn't it a beaut? Cobb holder - bat off shoulder.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

"It's amazing how much better these old cards look without any plastic in the way." Sounds to me like Scott has his eyes open, looking at cards, instead of looking at slip numbers. A few years ago I started saving those little slips. Maybe one day some collectors will zero in on the slips, and forgo the cards that some of us collect.

I always de-slab the cards I 'think' are a permanent part of the collection, but save the slips, just in case. I find that buying a beauty like this Matty in a 1.5 holder, then de-slabbing, is quite a bargain. They sold me the slip, I bought the card

[frankbmd]

If I was going to start a packaging company and knew that 0% of the population would want my product, then I would go broke.

If I was going to start a packaging company and knew that 100% of the population would want my product, then I would package each item once.

But if I was going to start a packaging company and knew that 50% of the population would want my product and 50% wouldn't want it, and if I knew there was a resale market for what I was packaging, and if I made the packaging in such a way that it could be removed so that I could repackage the same item time and time again, I would be far better off in the long run.

Just a thought hopefully not too far off topic.

[jerrys]

T206Plank.jpg

[FrankWakefield]

Travis, that is a great Cobb holder!!! I wonder what it'll book for in 5 years.

Scott, Nice Matty. He'll fit much better in a 15 pocket sheet that way.

[slidekellyslide]

I do not collect graded cards and don't even pay much attention to that side of the hobby, but can someone show me another card with a bottom edge like that with half rounded corners that did not get an Authentic grade?

[ScottFandango]

have you EVER made a post that doesnt deal with "trimmed cards being in a TPG holder"?

you have to bee the biggest broken record on this site..

we know you HATE TPGs and they only slab trimmed cards...

geesh...broken record

[FrankWakefield]

Time for ScottFandango to have his real name with each of his posts, I think.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ScottFandango

have you EVER made a post that doesnt deal with "trimmed cards being in a TPG holder"?

you have to bee the biggest broken record on this site..

we know you HATE TPGs and they only slab trimmed cards...

geesh...broken record

Don't shoot the messenger. I think Dan has raised issues worth discussing, given that no factory-cut Piedmont Plank has previously been documented (to the best of my knowledge); that we know nothing about provenance; and that the lower left corner on the large scan looks funky to some of us.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

I do not collect graded cards and don't even pay much attention to that side of the hobby, but can someone show me another card with a bottom edge like that with half rounded corners that did not get an Authentic grade?

I have a few, none in TPG holders I'm pretty sure, but I'm very confident all of them would grade if I bothered. This Phelps has a lower right corner that's similar. The diamond cut makes it look like less of a sharp transition from edge to corner than it actually is. And I'm positive it's not trimmed.


It's not in a holder because well, it's obviously a solid G grade. And a holder won't change that or make it clearer to someone.

I'd want to see the Plank in hand before I'd be willing to committ to trimmed/not trimmed. I do however have a problem with the Plank getting a 70. Based on the grades the cards I've sent in have recieved. I think 50, maybe 60 on a good day.

The Cobb - I had a bit of a look just now at the scan, and using my less than totally scientific method (Holding a straightedge up to the flat monitor) That top left corner isn't anywhere near as bad as it looks. While it looks truly awful the difference between the corner and the rest of the top edge is only a pixel or two. So call that another one I'd have to have in hand to feel sure calling it a mistake.

I wish I had the money for either of them.

Steve Birmingham

[gnaz01]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

Time for ScottFandango to have his real name with each of his posts, I think.

I agree Frank, we need Leon on this one!

[FrankWakefield]

Gotta be careful, Greg. Leon might call you a cry baby.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

Gotta be careful, Greg. Leon might call you a cry baby.

ScottFandango's name is Scott Fandango.

[ullmandds]

That was funny!!!!

[68Hawk]

I'll only speak from my limited experience using a guillotine cutter through my batchelor course work nearly 20 years ago....(a printing industry batchelors in graphic design and interactive media).

Firstly, so many things affect the cut. The number of sheets you load, the paper itself (which can be denser/wetter than desired, or variable in the fibre quality etc.), the sharpness of the blade, the handler themsleves and their own abilities etc, the condition of the stock paper before you put it under the cutter (eg. you can bump edges when trying to shift large format sheets across a factory room), and many others.

So many on this site seem to want to make an argument based on the assumption of perfect conditions resulting in perfect results. Any variation and the X files music starts up.
Truly, the more amazing thing is what a great job these early printers did producing a product as approx. uniform as it ends up, considering high print number runs and the fact these were 'giveaways' with the product - NOT the scarce highly priced collectable we consider it today. Each sheet and card would not have been handled with the trembling hands of today's t206 crazies.

Regarding angle cuts on one side, as you cut and turn the paper for the next cut, it's certainly possible to not butt the card stock uniformly enough up against the holding edge (or bump it without noticing) and create an angle cut on one side.....I did it myself a time or two when rushing. You might also have a single sheet midway within the stack that isn't uniform and don't realize it until seperation.

Also, importanly, paper that perhaps wasn't dried correctly before printing will continue to dry over subsequent years. And not always uniformly. You can get shrinkage that will 'suck up' the edges and create an out of square sheet giving a distinct dog ear appearance.

And to dog ears, while I agree some are clear tell tales of later re-cutting, some are just the process of aging/worn/played with/pressed in card holding binders of the era. I own a number of tobacco cards with cricket themes that had been held in a binder that clamped over the 4 corners tightly resulting in a flattening and 'elongating lengthening' perspective to each corner.
You can do it yourself with some card stock (don't use a valuable trading card :-). Just press down and out a number of times on a corner and you can lengthen it. Now imagine paper stock that gets a little weakened with handling, and the effect is even easier to have occur, naturally.

Overall, the argument to me runs simply to what can I see and prove, and what will I conject based on my limited knowledge.
I can't prove God exists through an absence of widely accepted observable evidence. But I can show through fossil records that not all the animals and everything else was created over a 6 day period. Neither of those statements gets me any closer to a positive position of how the earth began, they just are what they are.
If I know Jim Morrison hated Sesame Street but came across his auto on a Sesame Street album......if all the indications I could measure suggested the auto was authentic I wouldn't deny that likelihood just because of a storyline that might suggest otherwise. I would have to trust that on that day, things were different and the signing happened contrary to what I might expect.

If SGC pored over the card, and I'm sure they did for hours and hours, then their opinion of what they saw on the edges and corners led them in all they know on the topic to conclusively say that the card wasn't hand cut. Now the hows and the wherefores of this card coming into existence and having the slightly less than perfect angles and such isn't a story they see need to mess with.....they're just telling you what they are willing to certify to.
They would have sweated over it, and I'm pretty comfortable knowing that.

[carrigansghost]

Morrison hating Sesame Street, now that would be a revelation. I think in his cryptic writings on " An American Prayer", clearly show his love for the show. Oops sorry, just getting ready for the 1st.

And now back to our real news.....

Rawn

[gnaz01]

Originally Posted by Leon

ScottFandango's name is Scott Fandango.

Sorry Leon, seemed too good to be true.

Sorry Scott, now I know

[E93]

68 Hawk,
Thank you for the great info.
JimB

[glynparson]

In my opinion Those cards are an abomination. My problem with 3rd party grading is it was supposed to clean up the hobby and root out all the card doctors. But I think All it really did was get rid of the hacks and make the good ones rich. I feel tHIS IS ESPECIALLY TRUE at PSA AFTER THE PAY RATE FOR GRADERS WAS SLASHED BY ABOUT 50-75%. i ACTUALLY THINK MANY EARLY PSA GRAded cards are less messed with however they tend to be " overgraded" by the unrealistic standards of today. A true qualified grading service would be a blessing but it wont happen.



Sorry bumped caps lock button.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I agree with you re early PSA grades. In the early days of grading it was still possible to find a fair number of high grade, unaltered raw cards. At some point, with a relatively efficient market, the supply of those diminished as more and more were graded. So if there continues to be a steady influx of high grade cards coming out of the grading services, it seems reasonable to infer that more and more are altered in some way.

[RGold]

Peter, since my email is still down, Bryant's downtown for real KC BBQ, Oklahoma Joe's in the suburbs for generic BBQ, and Jack's Stack on the Plaza for upscale fine dining BBQ. Some also like Gate's.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by RGold

Peter, since my email is still down, Bryant's downtown for real KC BBQ, Oklahoma Joe's in the suburbs for generic BBQ, and Jack's Stack on the Plaza for upscale fine dining BBQ. Some also like Gate's.

Bring a defibrillator if you go to Bryants.

The Jack Stack out in Martin City is the best barbecue in the KC area, in my opinion - hands down. The rib sampler plate is pretty amazing.

[travrosty]

1995 SCD auction from the national showed this Plank,

It looks oversized to anybody?

Since it was raw when it was sold, could it have been cut down and put in a slab? Other possible oversized ones out there could have followed suit?

Does anybody know where this card is today? Can the experts weigh in?

The description says it is factory miscut by putting a bowed sheet into the cutter.

[MikeU]

Originally Posted by Runscott

To date, they have allowed PSA to stand alone on a pedestal with their Wagner 8 debacle. Why would SGC take a chance at climbing up (down?)

To the masses, the Wagner is not a debacle, it is the pinnacle of the hobby, the lead in marketing and a 1 of 1 that can not be dethroned.

Can the Plank be the only other $1M+ card in the hobby? Sounds like a climb up.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by MikeU

To the masses, the Wagner is not a debacle, it is the pinnacle of the hobby, the lead in marketing and a 1 of 1 that can not be dethroned.

Can the Plank be the only other $1M+ card in the hobby? Sounds like a climb up.

Big difference between the two, as many of us have stated several times already: The Wagner was known to be trimmed when slabbed; SGC believes the Plank is factory-cut plus, there isn't a Plank in existence that will compare to a NM Wagner. The Wagner stands alone.

Every collector on this board completely understands that we, the informed, are the minority when it comes to card opinions. Why else would the Cincinnati duo get so much airplay when to us they are obviously scammers? But if you believe the author of 'The Card', even most of the prior owners of the Wagner realized it was trimmed. Would anyone in their right mind buy such a card without doing just a little bit of research?

Okay, I repeated myself because you quoted me , but I'm done with this subject - we're all just preaching to the choir at this point.

[jp1216]

OT - but WOW. Just received the Goodwin catalog in the mail yesterday!!! Beautiful for those T206 collectors! Better than the 'T206 Collection' book IMHO. Every (authentic) card - in order - displayed in SGC holders with info on each card. Love it....

[irishdenny]

Originally Posted by danmckee

Based on that bottom edge, they should have stuck with their decision before they saw it then. They would have been more accurate.

"Bravo... Bravo"