1928 Fro Joy Babe Ruth - Authentic?

[Clutch-Hitter]

I just received this Fro Joy and am hoping to get opinions on its authenticity. At first glance out of the package, I thought something wasn't right about it compared to my authentic Fro Joy cards, but I'm in the process of testing it further.

Someone mentioned using a microscope in a previous Fro Joy thread to differentiate paper types, but since we know a black light will cause a modern counterfeit to fluoresce, will it also exaggerate various paper types, whether modern or vintage, to the point that their differences are easily recognizable? Will different types of paper look different under the black light? I'm going to use one and take some pictures.

Leon, this may be one of those. If it's fake, it's a good one!

Thanks

[Leon]

Hey Greg
I have come to the conclusion that most times, for me, it is too hard to tell if a good reproduction Fro-Joy is real or fake from a scan. Also, the head grader of BVG and I, have a theory that these cards and the Babe Ruth Candy cards might have been originally printed on different kinds of paper stocks. There are absolutely a small percentage that he and I feel are not going to be 100% either way. (of course they are one way or the other but we can't be positive) Those are ones they will not slab either. From the scan it looks sort of ok but I don't like the aging look of the paper. Definitely too hard to tell that one from a scan and maybe even in person. One thing to check is to see if the paper feels like 80 yr old paper when you rub it between your fingers. If it is course it's not a good sign. If smooth it's a better sign.

[Clutch-Hitter]

Thanks Leon. These are under the black light with authentic Fro Joy's beside the one in question. Look different to y'all?

[Leon]

I don't like it more now.

I also took the liberty of adding a visual to Greg's post, it being the E121. I hope to help show what I am talking about concerning old card paper. It's almost smooth many/most times whereas most of the fakes don't have that feel. Maybe it's the patina/uneven gloss on them?

[Jaybird]

I agree that it looks off. It is certainly flourescing more than the ones on either side. The paper doesn't look slick enough on the top of the card either (agreeing with Leon).

I think the blacklight is a good determining factor especially against a known authentic.

The printing does look alright though so it really does come down to the paper on these. Very tricky.

I need to look at mine again but I seem to remember that the edges on an authentic should all roll over and are not sharp. This is from the top looking down. I'll try and post a scan tomorrow to illustrate what I'm talking about. This would be more apparent on a NM card than a VG card.

[teetwoohsix]

I know nothing about how to tell a real from a fake with these- and the middle card sure does appear to be brighter,, but on the front middle scan, first photo without the blacklight you can see in the upper left corner that it seems to have some chipping or wear,,,,,and on my computer, the first front shot under the blacklight it seems as though the paper underneath that first layer (where it is chipped) almost has the same "tone" as the cards on each side (the known real ones).

[Clutch-Hitter]

Leon, "patina" seems right and was a good word choice. It appears a definite authentic has a brown undertone, under the white.

As far as cards being printed on various paper stocks back then, I have a set of W517's (minus four), some with several variations. The thickness, color, etc of the paper varies variation to variation.

Another thing about the card in question, the Ruth's Grip #5, is that it has a strong vintage odor.

A Ruth collector in Maryland has a set of authentic factory cut singles in Beckett holders, and his neighbor has some too. Overall, he's handled approx twenty. When I spoke to him about it, he said the paper is more like a '33 Goudey and less like a '34 Goudey. He explained why he said that, but just out of curiosity, do y'all know why?

I have an E121 type card and '33 Goudeys, so I'll get some comparison work done with them today.

A Goudey Ruth in PSA 3 is an awesome card, but even so this card is easily the most stunning I've ever owned.

[Clutch-Hitter]

Here's the card next to a Fro Joy Tunney:







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[teetwoohsix]

Hi Greg-

Wow !!! Those last few high res scans are very convincing, especially the shot under the blacklight in between two '70's fakes......maybe Leon's theory about these being printed on two different types of paperstock is correct.

My uneducated guess would be that the card wouldn't "chip" like that if it were a modern copy? And the high res scan of the corner next to the Tunney.......looks very similar.

I don't know anything about these cards, but really enjoy reading these threads and trying to learn about them, it's alot of fun. Thanks!!

Sincerely, Clayton

[Clutch-Hitter]

Thanks Clayton

Just went back to look at the pictures under the black light with the authentic ones and it seems like those two are dirtier, either that or the dark background on them makes them look a little different.

This is the first black light picture with the two authentic ones, cropped in to the part of "...Crack Fielder" that looked the cleanest and then to the "Look Out Mr Pitcher."





And cropped in to the Tunney black light comparison:

[Clutch-Hitter]

Leon, I must have been thinking out loud. BTW, I have not sent this to a grading company. Beckett-BVG has my respect for taking on Fro Joy, but they did "miss" my premium in December. I have lots of pictures of cards cropped to the border, or even more, inside their authentic holders. Nice pick-up on your Fro Joy premium; if you ever take it to Beckett, I'd like to send mine to you to take with it, if you don't mind. My fees are paid.

And now that I know what these singles look like, including the E121 type, I'm about to print a Beckett submission form for my Crack Fielder and Look Out Mr Pitcher cards.

The seller of this Grip card sold a few E121 type Fro Joy's recently, stating he or she acquired them from an east coast estate. He or she sells quite a bit of vintage stuff, plus east coast sounds like a likely spot to find some based on what I've read and heard.

Check out the other E121 type cards from this seller (not my cards below):





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My Premium

[Clutch-Hitter]

Fro Joy cards on e121 looking paper are fake, probably TCMA mid 70s productions.

Here's a fake Cobb:



The Ruth's Grip card is fake.

[Leon]

Hey Greg
I have usually thought the Fro Joys and Babe Ruth Candy cards SHOULD be on card stock that is similar to E121's. Now you are saying they are fake. Can you help me understand that? I am familiar with the notion of a rogue lithographic machine being in the hobby but have never heard of this particular card stock issue before. (besides a Beckett grader and myself thinking these cards could have been produced on different types of stock at time of mfg)

[Clutch-Hitter]

Alright, the paper is DEFINITELY different. Leon, it looked like my E121 under the light, but a nicer E121 example would have been more obvious. It's obvious from the Tunney/Grip photos that the two are very, very similar, so why would one see that and say "not sure.."(?). With my grip card, there's nothing to indicate it isn't authentic, nothing.






The problem we've had with Fro Joy singles all these years is with cards cut from fake sheets, such as the 70's cards on the ends above, fluorescing heavily under the black light.

[Leon]

Hey Greg
Nice last post. To me it really points out the paper differences. The grip card does look real. You can see the more closely placed dots. It actually looks "smoother" in the scan than the others do. That is exactly what I have been trying to say. I am not sure exactly what your question is or if I said something contrary earlier but that picture does show what I was talking about.....and also in relation to the E121 type stock. Also, I do think the lighter, bluer fluorescence is a sign of the reprint type paper. regards