@1921 Lefty Grove Photo

[FirstYearCards]

Hopefully it's okay to post this here Leon, if not please remove.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/370863758539...84.m1423.l2649

I'm trying to date this photo, but can't veryify the uniform. The Martinsburg claim and the 1921 Groves(notice spelling which is good) writing don't make sense either. Baltimore would be a better team choice to me. I'm interested in purchasing for my personal collection, but would like more info. Photos rarely interest me, but I'm sure some of you could offer a little more insight.

Thanks, Bill.

[Leon]

The seller is a board member and very experienced at photos. I would believe the description. Of course no one is perfect so there is always a chance it's different.

[Cardboard Junkie]

Is that "Lefty" in your avatar, Leon? Cool Card! Dave.

[RCMcKenzie]

Baseball-Reference has Grove on Martinsburg only for the 1920 season.

[Zach Wheat]

Where is Brad when you need him?

Z Wheat

[RCMcKenzie]

Here is "Groves" (far right) from an excerpt of a 1921 Baltimore photo.

[CobbvLajoie1910]

Nevermind.

[CobbvLajoie1910]

Originally Posted by Cardboard Junkie

Is that "Lefty" in your avatar, Leon? Cool Card! Dave.

Its Carl Hubbell.

[thecatspajamas]

Bill,
I would e-mail or PM Rhys (same username for Net54) and I'm sure he would be glad to explain his reasoning. The posted scan is too small for me to make out whether he has an 'M' on his cap (though the image may be too washed out in that area to tell anyway). The back of the photo does have 1921 and Baltimore pencilled on it, but every image I can find of Baltimore players from either 1920 or 1921 has the black portion of the sock extending all the way down. I don't have an image of any Martinsburg players for either of those years, so I don't know that that proves anything definitively, but there may be some other supporting evidence for Martinsburg that I can't see or am overlooking. Either way, Rhys is a good guy, and I'm sure can shed more light on it than I can second-guessing him.

And if you would, please post your findings back here, because now you've got my curiosity up

[RCMcKenzie]

Did y'all ever learn anymore about this one. It seems like the pencil notation of '1921 Baltimore Groves' could possibly correct, which would still make it a nice photo.

You would probably get more replies on the memorabila board. Maybe Rhys is seeing an insignia on the hat that looks like an M. To me, It looks similar to the Baltimore uniform with a warm-up jacket and ankle sleeves.

[prewarsports]

Hi

I have had many researchers trying to help with this photo. What I can confirm 100% is that it is pre Philadelphia and absolutely is not Baltimore based on the uniform. The date on the back is a file date and should not be confused with the date of the actual image. It has to be either Martinsburg or a young Grove wearing some type of odd uniform very early in his career (barnstorming or something). I wish I could be more help, but I honestly have had several researchers working with me on it and the evidence points to Martinsburg but nothing is concrete. It is a very early Gorve no doubt about it.




FYI, we will have the best selection of early Hall of Famer photographs ever assembled in our Auction next Month at

www.RMYAuctions.com

Including some additional early Grove images including a 1926 by Louis Van Oeyen!

Rhys

[leftygrove10]

Sorry. I did not see this thread earlier. The seller was originally trying to sell this photo saying that it was a Baltimore Orioles uniform. I emailed him and told him that I didn't think it was an Orioles uniform. For one, the Orioles uniform has the Oriole bird on the cap.

I offered my opinion that this photo was actually a Philadelphia Athletics uniform likely from 1925.

He is now saying that it is a Martinsburg Mountaineers uniform. Lefty played for Martinsburg in 6 games in 1920. He was then sold/traded to the Orioles. I have not seen a Martinsburg Mountaineers uniform from 1920. I have seen other Martinsburg uniforms that have an M on them, but they were not from 1920.

I stand by my original opinion that this is a 1925 Philadelphia Athletics uniform. I will post some pictures below to let you make up your own mind.

[leftygrove10]

The first photo below is the photo of Lefty from eBay.

The second photo is a picture of Connie Mack and his son Earle from 1925. This shows a Philadelphia Athletics uniform from 1925 along with a sweater/jacket that appears to be the same as what Lefty is wearing in the eBay photo.

You can find this picture at the link below, which indicates that this picture was taken in 1925.

http://www.three-eye.com/galChiDailyNews.html

The third photo is a picture of Lefty that I believe was taken in 1925.

[leftygrove10]

Here is a picture of Lefty in a Philadelphia Athletics uniform with the elephant logo. If the eBay photo is from 1925, then that uniform should be very similar to this one.

[Dto7]

1920 Martinsburg Mountaineers

[RCMcKenzie]

Rhys,

I'm looking forward to the inaugural RMY. Will be bidding on the 19th century stuff.

On this photo, I was wondering if you could post an enlarged scan of the cap. It's very hard to see from the scan. The cap does not look like the ones in the Martinsburg photo. It looks like there is a line like in the Philly pics that Brad posted.

[Texxxx]

The cap looks more like the Philly cap but the socks are wrong.

[leftygrove10]

Originally Posted by Texxxx

The cap looks more like the Philly cap but the socks are wrong.

The fact that Lefty has different socks in the one picture above doesn't bother me. Here is another picture of Lefty in the Athletics elephant uniform with more similar socks to the eBay picture. While you can't see the elephant logo in this picture, you will see that the hat is the same as the picture above.

[leftygrove10]

The 1939 Salutation Exhibit uses the same picture as the R315 above, but with a better view of the hat.

[leftygrove10]

Here is a 1933 Worch Cigar. The uniform in this picture shows the A on the uniform. The hat likely has an A on it as well. But here you can see more similar socks to the eBay picture. So the Athletics were known to wear socks like those shown in the eBay picture.

[leftygrove10]

Here are enlargements of the picture of Connie Mack and his son Earle from 1925 and the eBay picture of Lefty Grove. I think the jackets and hats are the same in the two pictures. Both would have been issued by the team, so it makes sense that both would be the same.

The players in the 1920 Martinsburg Mountaineers picture above are wearing dark hats -- not white hats like Lefty. Also, it appears to me that their socks are different in that picture than what Lefty is wearing in the eBay photo. The hat in the picture of Lefty does not appear to have an M on it.

Nobody has presented any evidence so far that indicates to me that this picture of Lefty is from earlier than 1925 (or even 1926). The fact that 1921 was written on the back of the picture holds no weight in my mind. Anybody can write anything they want on the back of a picture. So the date itself doesn't prove anything to me.

[nolemmings]

I agree it looks more like the A's than either Baltimore or Martinsburg given the white cap. The jacket does look to be the same as well, although that leaves the year undecided. FWIW, according to Marc Okkonnen's database, the A's would have worn socks like that-- top half dark bottom half white-- during 1921-23. They only wore socks like the one in Brad's photo in 1924. I believe Okkonen has been wrong before, but is usually pretty accurate.

The team could have worn that same style jacket for years--too bad he has it on, since Okkonen shows a dark elephant for 1921-23 and a white one for 1924-26.

[leftygrove10]

Here is a 1930 Draper and Maynard book with Lefty on the cover. In this picture, he is clearly wearing the same hat (the Athletics hat from 1925 to 1928) with the same socks as the eBay photo.

[RCMcKenzie]

Originally Posted by leftygrove10

Here is a 1930 Draper and Maynard book with Lefty on the cover. In this picture, he is clearly wearing the same hat (the Athletics hat from 1925 to 1928) with the same socks as the eBay photo.

I'm convinced. Nice work. Looks like 1925-1928 A's. Still a cool photo.

[nolemmings]

How is the pre-1925 hat different than the 1925-28 hat?

Okkonen's site is down, and I came to rely on it so much that I put his book in storage, so I can't look it up right now, but my recollection is that the caps are the same 1921-1926 (at least)--otherwise we could use that as the distinguishing characteristic without need of looking at the socks.

If the caps are the same from 1921-1926 then the Maynard Draper photo is by no means dispositive.

[RCMcKenzie]

The photo is stamped "Mar 23 1926", so I'm thinking with the hat and socks match from the Maynard book, that the stamp is probably a fair indication of it's age. I could still change my mind if y'all found more evidence to the contrary.

[leftygrove10]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

How is the pre-1925 hat different than the 1925-28 hat?

Okkonen's site is down, and I came to rely on it so much that I put his book in storage, so I can't look it up right now, but my recollection is that the caps are the same 1921-1926 (at least)--otherwise we could use that as the distinguishing characteristic without need of looking at the socks.

If the caps are the same from 1921-1926 then the Maynard Draper photo is by no means dispositive.

Lefty played for Martinsburg in 1920. He played for Baltimore from 1920 to 1924. He played for Philadelphia from 1925 to 1933. Since he started playing in Philadelphia in 1925, I haven't been concerned about what the Philadelphia uniform looked like before that. I guess one could argue that he might have been wearing 1924 left-overs in spring training of 1925.

[leftygrove10]

Here is the 1925 uniform.

[leftygrove10]

Here is the 1926 uniform.

[leftygrove10]

Here is the 1927 uniform.

[leftygrove10]

Here is the 1928 uniform. Notice that the elephant on the jersey has been replaced with the A, but the hat is still the same as 1927.

[leftygrove10]

Here is the 1929 uniform. Notice the change in the hat.

[leftygrove10]

I saved the images in the above several posts (1925 to 1929) on my computer several years ago. So I uploaded these images from my computer. It is entirely possible that the images on the website today may have been updated since these pictures were downloaded. Once again, Lefty started playing for the Athletics in 1925 so I haven't been focused on the uniforms before that.

[nolemmings]

Thanks for clearing that up Brad, and for saving those photos.

[MikeGarcia]

....it'a an AP Wirephoto from ...1938 ??

[leftygrove10]

Originally Posted by MikeGarcia

....it'a an AP Wirephoto from ...1938 ??

It does look like 1938. See link below for game on Sept 8.

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/team...p?y=1938&t=BOS

[leftygrove10]

This thread has made me want to take a sip of whisky....

[Exhibitman]

Too early for whiskey; how about some soda?

[leftygrove10]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Too early for whiskey; how about some soda?

That's nice, Adam! I saw that at the National last year, but didn't pounce on it. I think you bought it later in the day or the next day.

[leftygrove10]

If not whisky, how about some tobacco???