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  #91  
Old 10-30-2006, 12:28 PM
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Default opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?

Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Wait, I think I get it!
The crease formerly was on the card, but now it is gone, because someone removed it, right?
So no one can see it - well, because it is gone.
So what? The grading companies must have different color holders to distinguish between creases that are gone and those that were never there?
Wait, I still don't get it!

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  #92  
Old 10-30-2006, 12:40 PM
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Default opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?

Posted By: cmoking

Warshawlaw wrote: "This is the "hanging chad" of grading. If PSA divines that the mark was made by some creative kid, it gets slabbed. If "KarnakPSA" decides it was made by someone trying to deceive, it get rejected. Stupid, indefensible distinction. "

From my experience, PSA will grade any cards that has been written on as MK (assuming they see it and it wasn't erased). I was not aware they made any differentiation at all like what warshawlaw is talking about here. Edumacate me please.

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  #93  
Old 10-30-2006, 12:49 PM
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Default opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?

Posted By: davidcycleback

In this hobby, people generally have two major 'condition' critereon for pricing a card:
authenticity and condition grade.

If a genuine card is altered-- recolored, trimmed, wrinkle pressed out-- the card
will still be authentic.

Assigning a condition of grade is dependant on whether or not the card has been altered.
A recolored card can't be considered Mint no matter how nice it looks. In fact many will
consider the card Poor or ungradable. Whether you think it's dumb or smart or silly or
good, a 'Near Mint' card that is known to have had a crease pressed out will be valued
lower than a Near Mint card that has had no alteration. If these two cards are laid side
by side, I know of no collector who would pay the same about for each card knowing one has
had a wrinkle removed-- and everyone removing a wrinkle knows this.

Fraud is when you intentionally hide information that you know would lower the
value of the card. If you have a Mint card and don't disclose what you did to the
card because you know the buyer would pay less if you did disclose, that's fraud.

For defining fraud, don't be concerned about whether this or that counts as or 'alteration'
or if this type of alteration is good or bad, focus on whether or not the alteration
effects the market value of the card and wehther or not the seller is hiding it
specifically because he knows disclosure will lower the value.

If one person thinks recoloring a 1953 Topps Mickey Mantle is evil and another thinks
the recoloring enhances the card and is morally good, they both have to disclose the
recoloring at sale as they both know recoloring lowers the market value for the card.
For defining fraud, the question of whether restoration is morally good or
morally bad is irelevant.

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  #94  
Old 10-30-2006, 12:49 PM
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Default opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?

Posted By: Cobby33

Sometimes, they grade a card "but for" the mark and qualify it with a "MK." Example, if a card would have gotten a "6" without the mark, it would get a "6 (MK)."

Sometimes, PSA grades a card with a mark as the grade it would have gotten, but for the mark, knock it down a grade AND qualify it with a "MK." I.e., if a card would have otherwise gotten a "6," it gets a "5 (MK)."

Sometimes, they just knock it down a grade (or not), without an "MK."

Somtimes, they give a "MK" to a card without a mark (as they just did to me).

By the same token, PSA (and others) generally give "AUT" or "A" to cards that have otherwise been altered. Sometimes they give beaters that are not altered, an "A" or "AUT."

Absolutely no consistency internally, nor across the various grading companies.

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  #95  
Old 10-30-2006, 12:56 PM
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Default opinions- is taking a crease out really altering?

Posted By: cmoking

"Sometimes, they just knock it down a grade (or not), without an "MK.""

If this is true, it is news to me. I thought they labeled all cards with marks as MK. Of course, it is possible they made some mistakes and didn't see the MK.

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