I got a big announcement!

[Peter_Spaeth]

The post may not have been worded artfully, but I must be missing why the OP is taking so much grief here?

[Bpm0014]

Mostly for this line: The guy that sold the stuff, and the guy that bought the stuff don't know crap!

[slidekellyslide]

I think Richard may have been really excited to make this post and it did not come off how he wanted it to. I think we'd all be excited to come across a million dollar hoard of cards. Looking forward to seeing what this collection contains.

[Leon]

I think you nailed it.

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

I think Richard may have been really excited to make this post and it did not come off how he wanted it to. I think we'd all be excited to come across a million dollar hoard of cards. Looking forward to seeing what this collection contains.

[obcbobd]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The post may not have been worded artfully, but I must be missing why the OP is taking so much grief here?

+1.

[Snapolit1]

I thought it was pretty clear that the OP was gloating at his good fortune in now having gained access to a large valuable collection now in the hands of folks who didn't know the value of what they had. And he was going to make as quick a buck as he could at these folks expense. Didn't think that was too hard to discern. Does it make him the worst guy in the world? No. But hardly something I would be bragging publicly about.

There were also details in the post that didn't make a whole lot of sense. 1000s of T206 cards someone is having trouble finding.

Maybe the purchaser isn't such a dummy after all and is playing someone else here.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The post may not have been worded artfully, but I must be missing why the OP is taking so much grief here?

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

I think Richard may have been really excited to make this post and it did not come off how he wanted it to. I think we'd all be excited to come across a million dollar hoard of cards. Looking forward to seeing what this collection contains.

Our hobby is often cursed by the unfortunate truism that stuff trumps integrity.

No one likes to see a card they sold, back on the market and resold for multiples of the purchase price, which I would characterize as the "flipper's" dream resulting in not only "quick bucks", but big bucks. Dealing with a flipper, who pretends to be a collector, can lead to this type of seller's remorse.

Richard states he is a collector and not a flipper, but........

when he announces his intent to purchase a large collection of "stuff" from an unknowlegable seller with resale for profit as an objective, I think the buyer pool, myself included, was put off. His unartful wording in the OP seemed to suggest a buy low, sell high MO (modus operandi).

Richard was excited and openly honest, if not artful.

Is their risk in Richard doing this? Yes

Is there work and time spent reselling multiple small lots? To be sure.

Would other members of the Board do the same thing, if presented with the same opportunity? Oh yeah!!!

An openly honest flipper is better than one who deceives his intent, IMO.
If members of the board are able to purchase some of Richard's cards reasonably, this dust up will soon be forgotten.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Our hobby is often cursed by the unfortunate truism that stuff trumps integrity.

No one likes to see a card they sold, back on the market and resold for multiples of the purchase price, which I would characterize as the "flipper's" dream resulting in not only "quick bucks", but big bucks. Dealing with a flipper, who pretends to be a collector, can lead to this type of seller's remorse.

Richard states he is a collector and not a flipper, but........

when he announces his intent to purchase a large collection of "stuff" from an unknowlegable seller with resale for profit as an objective, I think the buyer pool, myself included, was put off. His unartful wording in the OP seemed to suggest a buy low, sell high MO (modus operandi).

Richard was excited and openly honest, if not artful.

Is their risk in Richard doing this? Yes

Is there work and time spent reselling multiple small lots? To be sure.

Would other members of the Board do the same thing, if presented with the same opportunity? Oh yeah!!!

An openly honest flipper is better than one who deceives his intent, IMO.
If members of the board are able to purchase some of Richard's cards reasonably, this dust up will soon be forgotten.

Frank did you get permission to make an honest post filled with common sense? Those type of posts have no business in this thread or usually on the forum.

[slidekellyslide]

Well honestly I'm not sure how someone accumulates a million dollar collection without having some knowledge of the value of the collection. And it's not like Richard said they had no clue, they just might not know the T206 variations and such. I'll be honest if I went to a show and saw a rare T206 variation at the price of the regular card I would not alert the dealer, I'd just buy it. And so would you. It is not your job to educate the seller.

[Bruinsfan94]

Please add me to the negative list.

Brian Clifford.

[basesareempty]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

well honestly i'm not sure how someone accumulates a million dollar collection without having some knowledge of the value of the collection. And it's not like richard said they had no clue, they just might not know the t206 variations and such. I'll be honest if i went to a show and saw a rare t206 variation at the price of the regular card i would not alert the dealer, i'd just buy it. And so would you. It is not your job to educate the seller.

+1000

[mechanicalman]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Well honestly I'm not sure how someone accumulates a million dollar collection without having some knowledge of the value of the collection. And it's not like Richard said they had no clue, they just might not know the T206 variations and such. I'll be honest if I went to a show and saw a rare T206 variation at the price of the regular card I would not alert the dealer, I'd just buy it. And so would you. It is not your job to educate the seller.

Of course I would buy said card in your example.

I just wouldn't go on a public forum and announce my good fortune to have stumbled upon a seller who "doesn't know crap" before I even made the purchase.

Perhaps a nuance, but a meaningful one.

P.S. I'm sure I'm now on the negative list, but that's OK. I'll wait until cards have been sold to another flipper, cleaned, graded, consigned, shilled, and then sold for the highest dollar before I jump in.

[KMayUSA6060]

What stood out to me was the OP's intent to point out that the original seller, and buyer that is the current seller, each lack knowledge on what they are selling. By pointing this out, bragging about it on a public forum, and insinuating that others have the opportunity to get in on this potential steal of a deal, it gave off a very negative connotation. The OP may not have intended for such a negative perception to be had, but it's how it came off. Meanwhile, throughout the thread, he dug himself into a bigger hole with his responses to people's comments. I can understand the excitement in a potential great deal and how that could lead to a less artful - as others have put it - original post. However, he had time to respond with more poise and clarity, and failed to do so. Therefore, I think many are still disbelievers in this thread.

For those that watch the show American Pickers, you'll know that there is a negative perception of Frank's deals compared to Mike's. Throughout my research to see how the show operates (essentially are the negotiations pre-determined or are they legitimate), I've read multiple forums where people talk about how Frank rips people off. He almost always low-balls people, purchasing stuff at prices that allow him to make double, if not triple his money. Quite often, Mike will inquire about an item, the owner will tell him he can have it for $XXX (let's say $200), but Mike will educate the buyer and share with him that the item is actually worth $XXXX ($1000, let's say), and offer the seller $400-500 for that item.

My point of bringing American Pickers up, is there are ways to get a good deal, without taking advantage of someone. The original post gave off the impression of a person looking to take advantage of an uneducated person. Now, shame on the seller for being uneducated with an investment, but I also don't know the full story and it's not my place to judge; it could be a situation where a friend is financially assisting a friend. Regardless, if the intent is not to take advantage of a seller, than the tone in the original post and throughout the thread by the OP's responses was set improperly. This is why I felt the need to post early on my concerns.

[scottbdoug]

Originally Posted by KMayUSA6060

What stood out to me was the OP's intent to point out that the original seller, and buyer that is the current seller, each lack knowledge on what they are selling. By pointing this out, bragging about it on a public forum, and insinuating that others have the opportunity to get in on this potential steal of a deal, it gave off a very negative connotation. The OP may not have intended for such a negative perception to be had, but it's how it came off. Meanwhile, throughout the thread, he dug himself into a bigger hole with his responses to people's comments. I can understand the excitement in a potential great deal and how that could lead to a less artful - as others have put it - original post. However, he had time to respond with more poise and clarity, and failed to do so. Therefore, I think many are still disbelievers in this thread.

For those that watch the show American Pickers, you'll know that there is a negative perception of Frank's deals compared to Mike's. Throughout my research to see how the show operates (essentially are the negotiations pre-determined or are they legitimate), I've read multiple forums where people talk about how Frank rips people off. He almost always low-balls people, purchasing stuff at prices that allow him to make double, if not triple his money. Quite often, Mike will inquire about an item, the owner will tell him he can have it for $XXX (let's say $200), but Mike will educate the buyer and share with him that the item is actually worth $XXXX ($1000, let's say), and offer the seller $400-500 for that item.

My point of bringing American Pickers up, is there are ways to get a good deal, without taking advantage of someone. The original post gave off the impression of a person looking to take advantage of an uneducated person. Now, shame on the seller for being uneducated with an investment, but I also don't know the full story and it's not my place to judge; it could be a situation where a friend is financially assisting a friend. Regardless, if the intent is not to take advantage of a seller, than the tone in the original post and throughout the thread by the OP's responses was set improperly. This is why I felt the need to post early on my concerns.

well said

[slidekellyslide]

Maybe this is a topic for a different thread, but how much responsibility do we have to educate sellers? The American Pickers scenario is different in my opinion because these guys are for the most part dealing with collectors/hoarders and not dealers. In that situation you should never take advantage of someone.

I purchased a Dogs Head cigarette package at a local antique show for $50 knowing full well it was worth ten times that amount. How much responsibility did I have to notify the dealer that I was going to make a lot of money by flipping that?

There is a tag sale company in my town that seems utterly clueless when it comes to certain items. I purchased a $1000 Notre Dame v Nebraska football program out of their dollar box. Is my moral compass off?

It is my understanding that Richard is buying these cards from a dealer of some sort and not just some hapless collector shelling out big bucks for million dollar collections.

[Snapolit1]

My parents live half the year down in Florida in one of those classic massive condo communities. I've often thought how fun it would be to put an ad in the local paper offering to buy vintage cards from seniors. Set up a handful of appointments every time I go down there. Grandpa kicks the bucket and Grandma takes a shoe box out of the closet and doesn't have the foggiest notion what it's worth. (Or "doesn't know crap" one could say.) I've though about how I would respond if all of a sudden Grandma pulls out a 52 Mantle. What if she's happy with $100. What if she says "you're a nice young man . . just take them." What do you do in that scenario? I'd like to think my response would be " . .wow. . .these are worth a lot of money. . . . . I think you should talk to [fill in the name of reputable auction house]. Let me help you get a lot of money for these . . . ."

Whenever I see those ads in the paper "Looking to Buy Cards" I always immediately translate it to "Looking to Buy Cards From Someone Who Doesn't Know Crap about the value of what they have."

[Eggoman]

Being "semi-retired', I assist families dispose of collections & partial estates due to MANY different circumstances. When I am invited into your house as a "professional" in that capacity, I will be as upfront and honest as I possibly can be.

I will tell you what I know about what you have. When I don't know something, (which is OFTEN), I will find out for you and tell you when I do know.

However, when I ATTEND an Estate Sale, Garage Sale, Flea Market, Antique Shop, Thrift Shop, etc. I DO NOT feel the need to be that honest.

If you put a price on an item, you are telling me that THAT is what you want for that item. If you feel that you know what you are doing and end up "give away" something for pennies on the dollar because you didn't do your homework - SHAME ON YOU!

MY thoughts...

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by Eggoman

Being "semi-retired', I assist families dispose of collections & partial estates due to MANY different circumstances. When I am invited into your house as a "professional" in that capacity, I will be as upfront and honest as I possibly can be.

I will tell you what I know about what you have. When I don't know something, (which is OFTEN), I will find out for you and tell you when I do know.

However, when I ATTEND an Estate Sale, Garage Sale, Flea Market, Antique Shop, Thrift Shop, etc. I DO NOT feel the need to be that honest.

If you put a price on an item, you are telling me that THAT is what you want for that item. If you feel that you know what you are doing and end up "give away" something for pennies on the dollar because you didn't do your homework - SHAME ON YOU!

MY thoughts...

I think that's a fair distinction. I certainly don't go into a clothing store and say "gee, you could be asking a whole lot more for that suit pal."

[Bruinsfan94]

Originally Posted by Eggoman

Being "semi-retired', I assist families dispose of collections & partial estates due to MANY different circumstances. When I am invited into your house as a "professional" in that capacity, I will be as upfront and honest as I possibly can be.

I will tell you what I know about what you have. When I don't know something, (which is OFTEN), I will find out for you and tell you when I do know.

However, when I ATTEND an Estate Sale, Garage Sale, Flea Market, Antique Shop, Thrift Shop, etc. I DO NOT feel the need to be that honest.

If you put a price on an item, you are telling me that THAT is what you want for that item. If you feel that you know what you are doing and end up "give away" something for pennies on the dollar because you didn't do your homework - SHAME ON YOU!

MY thoughts...

That is pretty much 100% true right there.

[KMayUSA6060]

Originally Posted by Eggoman

Being "semi-retired', I assist families dispose of collections & partial estates due to MANY different circumstances. When I am invited into your house as a "professional" in that capacity, I will be as upfront and honest as I possibly can be.

I will tell you what I know about what you have. When I don't know something, (which is OFTEN), I will find out for you and tell you when I do know.

However, when I ATTEND an Estate Sale, Garage Sale, Flea Market, Antique Shop, Thrift Shop, etc. I DO NOT feel the need to be that honest.

If you put a price on an item, you are telling me that THAT is what you want for that item. If you feel that you know what you are doing and end up "give away" something for pennies on the dollar because you didn't do your homework - SHAME ON YOU!

MY thoughts...

Absolutely agree.

[Snapolit1]

I guess the OPs situation is somewhere between the hired appraiser and the store price situation. If he has stumbled upon a million dollar collection that some guy just bought and believes that the guy who bought it doesn't know the value of what he has . . . well that's neither of the above situations. I agree if someone posts a card for $100 on ebay and its really worth a $1000, I'd have no issue buying it. But if I walk into my neighbor's house and see a rare painting on the wall and say to him "hey, I'll give you $200 for that painting . . ." knowing full its some rare Andy Warhol that my neighbor is totally ignorant to, I think that's unethical.

[scottbdoug]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Maybe this is a topic for a different thread, but how much responsibility do we have to educate sellers? The American Pickers scenario is different in my opinion because these guys are for the most part dealing with collectors/hoarders and not dealers. In that situation you should never take advantage of someone.

I purchased a Dogs Head cigarette package at a local antique show for $50 knowing full well it was worth ten times that amount. How much responsibility did I have to notify the dealer that I was going to make a lot of money by flipping that?

There is a tag sale company in my town that seems utterly clueless when it comes to certain items. I purchased a $1000 Notre Dame v Nebraska football program out of their dollar box. Is my moral compass off?

It is my understanding that Richard is buying these cards from a dealer of some sort and not just some hapless collector shelling out big bucks for million dollar collections.

A used item is only worth what someone is willing to pay, and a seller can try charge what he thinks he can get or what he thinks the item is worth. To you, flipping items is easier than perhaps myself as I dont sell stuff and I have no network of buyers that you may have. So the buyer strictly speaking has no obligation to point out that they have a network of other buyers who would pay a lot more than what he is selling the item at presently.

Now saying that, I believe that a seller who is buying does have an ethical obligation to point out to someone that the item they are selling is worth more if that more falls within the 25%-33% that sellers buy things for to resell later. Would you feel comfortable buying a card that easily sells for 1000.00 and the person is selling it for 5.00 at a garage sale? I wouldn't. But I would say to him I will buy the card for 250.00, as that is approximately the value of it.

[slidekellyslide]

I buy stuff at garage sales all the time for a buck or two that routinely sell for $100+. I feel no obligation to educate sellers. I've spent decades learning the values of items. I can tell you which Atari 2600 cartridges are rare, I can tell you which vintage Newsweek and Time magazines are in demand, I can tell you which vintage Star Wars figures are rare. If a seller prices his items for sale and it's a good deal I will buy it. I would never lie to someone though if they asked me what something was worth, and I hate going to garage sales where nothing is priced and the seller wants you to "make an offer".

[Eggoman]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

I buy stuff at garage sales all the time for a buck or two that routinely sell for $100+. I feel no obligation to educate sellers. I've spent decades learning the values of items. I can tell you which Atari 2600 cartridges are rare, I can tell you which vintage Newsweek and Time magazines are in demand, I can tell you which vintage Star Wars figures are rare. If a seller prices his items for sale and it's a good deal I will buy it. I would never lie to someone though if they asked me what something was worth, and I hate going to garage sales where nothing is priced and the seller wants you to "make an offer".

AGREED! Coming from ANOTHER collector/flipper who put in the time to learn about "stuff"...

It becomes a chess match of sorts... Do I, on the "buyer's side" of the table, know more than the person on the "seller's side" of the table.

The seller will CERTAINLY NOT prevent me from paying too much for something at their sale. Therefore, is it my responsibility to tell them that they have under-priced something???

I think not...

You priced it and I am willing to pay your price. However, I will NOT haggle price over something that is clearly already a bargain.

[iwantitiwinit]

Just to stir the pot a bit any update on the big announcement?

[rdwyer]

Yes, I've been doing some private sales.

[SMPEP]

I'll wade into the ethical obligation debate by mentioning my "original owner" standard.

If the person selling the 1952 Topps grey back is someone selling the cards their grandfather had as a kid, and they have no idea what they are selling, I'll educate them (and make a fair offer).

If the person selling the item is a professional card dealer who doesn't know what he has (which happens much less than it used to but some professionals would be shocked how many of these they sold), I won't say a thing and just buy it. Why? Well let me ask the dealer a question, did YOU Mr. Dealer give the original owner the fair market value of the item? The answer is No. You paid a faction of what you intend to sell it for. So the dealer put a price on the card that reflects the mark up from the price he gave the original owner.

In my mind, if anyone deserve the windfall profit, it's the original owner, not the dealer who didn't know what he was buying (and therefore didn't make a fair offer in the first place).

So if my professional knowledge is better than your professional knowledge Mr. Dealer, I EARNED that extra value. You didn't. And you still get the profit that your knowledge and skill earned from your original purchase. The original owner has a right to be peeved because he was taken advantage of - but not by me. It's the dealer that screwed him.

Cheers,
Patrick

[richieb315]

Cards arrived quickly. Thanks

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by rdwyer

Yes, I've been doing some private sales.

Has the guy located his 1000s of T cards or does he need another month?

[Leon]

The OP has asked to lock this thread so it is being locked. Thanks....