Bud Selig thinking of reinstating Aaron as HR king

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Posted By: Al

Just heard that Selig is so disgusted with the steroid issue that he is considering making Hank Aaron's HR record the official MLB record again.

Anyone have more info?

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Posted By: leon

Now there's a good debate. I have no other info and mixed feelings. On one hand I think it's great but on the other, if he does that, doesn't that open Pandora's box?

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Posted By: D. Bergin

Selig should put an asterisk next to his reign as MLB Commissioner.

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Posted By: jay wolt

Selig turned a blind eye towards all the juicing since the
game was doing well at the cash register.
Now he's disgusted since all the heat is on.

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Posted By: barrysloate

If that's the case then Bonds cedes the single season record to McGwire, who is also a cheater, therefore Roger Maris is once again the single season home run champ! This could get pretty interesting.

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Posted By: JimB

I agree with Jay's sentiments. Selig should be banned from baseball. What a hypocrite!
JimB

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Posted By: Doug

If they do that where does the line get drawn? Are they going to give Ty Cobb the all time hit record back because Pete Rose is banned for life from baseball? Are they going to remove the pitching records of players that admitted to scuffing/doctoring the ball? It think it would just cause a huge mess.

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Posted By: Phil

The worst part of all this is that Selig made $14.5 million last year as Commissioner......I believe only 2 baseball players had an annual salary higher than him. And what has he done to earn that $$ ?

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Posted By: quan

selig should've taken PED's...worst.idea.ever.

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Posted By: Bob Pomilla

Have to agree with the direction Leon and Barry are going with this. Would the all-time home run record be the only one affected? Wouldn't a lot of other people have legitimate gripes as to being steroid-cheated out of records? The line gets drawn where?

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Thats a great idea!

I hope he goes through with it and eliminates all the records by those who have done so much to damage the game.

Now he's earning his $17mm salary!

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Posted By: Dave Hornish

So I guess Selig has investigated and verified every record holder from the so called pre-Steroid era never doped or did anything illegal and deserves to have the unvarnished, untainted title? Puh-lease.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Bob- it does open up a can of worms regarding all-time records. For every home run hit, there is one given up. Do you take home runs away from Bonds's total? And if you do, can the pitcher who gave one up also have it stricken from his record. Boy, what a mess!

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Steroid usage during ones career is shaping up as a disqualifier for the Hall of Fame and it should be a disqualifier from holding any records as well.

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Posted By: Marty Ogelvie

I think it just makes big mess, messier.

There is already an understood asteric beside Bonds, McGwire and Sosa's names in the record books.

You either pull and Commissioner Landis and ban 'em from baseball for life or you simple allow baseball historians to decide their fate. You don't need to put an asteric in the record books besides Bonds name, its already there!

marty

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Posted By: Cat

Selig's a moron. All he has done is assure that he will stay in the public eye, which will not be kind to him.

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Posted By: Erick Lewin

Talk about pandoras box...



Think about this: If he was to do this, shouldn't he have to void the results/ outcome of every single one of Bonds games, as well as any other known steroid user? People only think of the personal records and accomplishments. But, outcomes of every single game for every team for the past 15-20 years may have been skewed by a hit that someone got while useing PED's. Or a strikout that some juiced up closer got to end a game against a clean hitter.... Every single team has had and I'm sure still has at least a few people using PEDS.

Here's the kicker....They still don't test for HGH! For all we know maybe 60-80% of guys in MLB are using HGH, or some similar complex, or new cutting edge undetectable substances.

It is my belief that we have now entered the "Steroid AGE". No longer should we refer to the "steroid era" as a thing of the past that we are emerging from. I'm sad to say that I think there are always going to be some cheaters and that the drug technology will always be a few steps ahead of the testing technologies.



As for Selig:


Selig is a clown making ridiculous money. He's nothing more than a puppet for the owners and the media. He never opened his mouth when business was good. Baseball people should get together, out this guy and hire a new commisioner. Also, restructure the commisioner office and give the newcomer actual power, and hire someone with firm convictions other than money. Just as they did with Landis back in the day.

E. Lewin

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Posted By: Steve F

Frank Wakefield, You're right... It was insensitive. This is a bit less harsh and sadly, less relevant

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Posted By: MVSNYC

"I think it just makes big mess, messier.

There is already an understood asteric beside Bonds, McGwire and Sosa's names in the record books."


...Agreed.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

1- That's unfair to the Rainman and to Dustin Hoffman.

2- Double asterisk the whole damn mess... Bonds, McGuire, Sosa, and Selig.


I'd love to be Commissioner. The game would return to being America's game, the fan's game. Idiot owners could pay as much as they want out in salaries, but we'd have ticket price caps, and concession price caps. (Where's that Miller High Life guy from the commercials? I'd have him as an Assistant to the Commissioner!) We'd have a bit more of revenue sharing to balance out the franchises. We'd go back to a minute between innings. Games would return to two hours and fifteen to thirty minutes. Media control of who plays when would vanish. All odd WS games would be day games... do something to help B.A.T. to take care of the old guys, and then we'd fix the Hall. I'd do the job for 1% of what Selig gets. Oh, and did I mention the passes that would be waiting at the turnstiles for Net54 folks?

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Posted By: Anthony S.

I'm sure this would be a completely objective decision on Bud's part, and would have nothing to do with the fact that he is close friends with and idolizes Henry Aaron.

Interesting quote from sports columnist, Bruce Jenkins, who is no Bonds fan, back in 2006:

"Meanwhile, labels of fanciful innocence are attached to every edge-seeking player from, say, the mid-'50s through the mid-'80s. I can't tell you how many times I've heard retired players mention Willie Mays or Henry Aaron in amphetamine conversations not as a criticism or indictment, but as a perfectly casual, almost affectionate reminder of the fact nearly everyone wanted (and still wants) a little pick-me-up. I visited too many clubhouses to be bothered in the slightest by such talk; "speed" has long been an integral part of the game. Just wondering, though: As we put a dunce cap on McGwire as he comes up for election with the sainted Tony Gwynn and Cal Ripken, do we really know for sure neither of those two icons ever took a little something to enhance performance?

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Posted By: MVSNYC

speaking of Willie, does anyone remember the Bob Costas interview a few months back with Mays & Aaron? towards the end of the interview, Willie carried on a bit about asking the doctor for "something" to keep his enegry up during his playing days, he said he had no idea what they were giving him, but he took it...intersting.

who really knows the truth on any of these guys (Gwynn & Ripken included)...who really knows?

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Posted By: J Levine

I love taking things one step further...Aaron is not HR king. Give that title to Josh Gibson. If he is going to get rid of the steroid users, why not stop there...how about the segregation of baseball?

Joshua

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Posted By: Red

"speaking of Willie, does anyone remember the Bob Costas interview a few months back with Mays & Aaron? towards the end of the interview, Willie carried on a bit about asking the doctor for "something" to keep his enegry up during his playing days, he said he had no idea what they were giving him, but he took it...intersting.

who really knows the truth on any of these guys (Gwynn & Ripken included)...who really knows?"



I guess it all depends on what the rules were for such things at the time they took the substance. There had to be steroid use prior to their use being an issue.

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Posted By: JDRUM

The asterisk is already there, Bud just can't see it. Like all the steroid abuse that has been going on under his reign. What an overpaid tool.

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Posted By: Fred C

Selig must have done something positive during his tenure as commissioner. Can anybody think of anything? I think he's got to go down as the George Bush of baseball commissioners.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

not that i'm a huge Bud supporter, but i think some of you have forgotten the good things that have happended on his watch...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bud_Selig

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I hate the steroid guys but it's just not realistic to wipe away the stats as it just becomes too much of a slippery slope. That being said, keeping them out of the HOF would suit me just fine.

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Posted By: John H.

Much as I despise all of this steroid nonsense and the idiot players involved, Bud can't expunge the records that have been set. That would be the ultimate in craziness. As the last post said, you just have to keep the losers out of Cooperstown. That's the ultimate punishment.

The record book has become a joke and it's on Selig's watch. It's a tragedy that the game whose historical numbers mean more than any other sport's now includes meaningless records in many key categories.

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Posted By: Jerry

He's Ugly too!

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Posted By: howard

An asterisk would be meaningless to me and many others as well. No matter what the "official" record books say, I, like millions of other fans, am capable of deciding to my own satisfaction who is the legitimate holder of any particular record or title. It's true in every sport. For example, despite what the record books say I know that Roy Jones, Jr. earned a gold medal in boxing in the '88 Olympics; I know that the USA beat the USSR in the gold medal basketball game in '72 and I know that Mark Gastineau holds the single season sack record because Brett Farve gifted a fake sack to Michael Strahan in 2001.

While I believe that the steroid aided stats should stand I still regard Hank Aaron as the HR King until he is supplanted by some clean kid several decades down the line.

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Posted By: Dave Hornish

Even without the who took what argument, it's asinine since all baseball stats have to "prove out"; Each year balances when all the stats are added up. You cannot change that fact no matter how many asterisks you put in there.

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Posted By: marshall barkman

Talk about a bunch of nonsense in regards to the whole matter. Everyone knows that Ty Cobb,Mickey Mantle, Michael Jordan,Joe Namath,Magic Johnson and so on were all off the charts in one way or another. Mantle was a total booze hound and womanizer and gambled constantly, Ty Cobb was even worse! Jordan gambled so much that he was suspended from hoops and then took up base-ball for a couple of years. Magic has the aids virus because he obviously had no respect for his wife.

I'm tired of folks bashing today's ballplayers and yet say nothing about the older players. Does anyone think for a second that Ty Cobb or Babe Ruth would not have enhanced their game if they could have? Baseball has turned into this wimpy finger pointing game where if a player does anything wrong on or off the field instantly folks start screaming off with his head.

The best player to ever play the game was a notorious gambler, a known racist, womanizer and abuser of women, but if you find his T206 with his name on the back it will be fought after as if he were god himself.

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Posted By: keyway

Did he say anything about giving the single season Home Run record back to Maris? If you do one you must do the other. It's sad that we will never know who should be deserving amoung the current players. What a mess baseball is in. Frank

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Posted By: marshall barkman

Frank...you said "What a mess baseball is in". Baseball is just a extension of this country. What a mess this country is in.

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Posted By: keyway

Just read where Selig says that A_Rod has shamed the game. I wonder what the hell he thinks he has done. Moron.

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Posted By: John K

You can simply remove the stats of Bonds, Sosa, McGuire, Alex and restore the truth to the Home Run records. This is not quantum mechanics; if the stats don't "prove out" it will not mean that baseball will disappear into a black hole and into another dimension. Just because one can't eradicate all the evils of the game, doesn't mean one can't put things right with baseball's most hallowed ground. Aaron is the all-time record holder and Maris/Ruth hold the legitimate records for the single season (162/154) and they should be recognized as such by MLB.

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Posted By: dennis

What a mess baseball is in". Baseball is just a extension of this country. What a mess this country is in.

gotta add......what a mess the whole world is in

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Posted By: Don

This is an easy one to solve. Ban all proven PED users. Then make the decision that all banned players will not appear in MLB official records and are also ineligible for The Hall. Sorry Pete. If you get reinstated, then your records and eligibility are reinstated.

Baseball has zero credibility until it deals decisively with this issue, just as Landis had to deal decisively with the gambling issue. Sorry Buck.

And the official MLB record holders are:

Aaron 755
Maris 61
Cobb 4189

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Posted By: Mark L

As has been mentioned on other threads, steroids and HGH introduce a whole new dimension of cheating. I see no reason why MLB should not officially say that it regards Maris's and Aaron's records as more legitimate than those of Bonds. It doesn't make a heck of a lot of difference, but it does accord with what most sensible people think.

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Posted By: Jimmy

Now, that is a very good idea, with all the bad news in baseball

This would get some attention

Thanks for the post

Jimmy

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Posted By: john/z28jd

Selig doesnt have to do anything because people who want to believe one record is right will believe it already no matter what he or anyone else says. I don't credit Nolan Ryan with the single season strikeout record but baseball does. All you have to do is look in the baseball encyclopedia and you will see it is wrong. I really don't care what they say just like I don't believe the Hall of Fame voting is right and the players that are in it are the best.


I talked to a friend the other day about Bonds being the all-time home run king and I said to him,if youre crediting the steroids for Bonds hitting a unknown certain amount of homers then you also have to credit them for the insane walk totals he received and add those homers onto his total at a rate of at least one every 18 AB's he lost. Then you have to realize with no steroids allegations he would've definitely played last year,maybe the Giants maybe as a DH. If he was closing in on the all-time home run record when you add in those totals then he would obviously play this year and how would you know when he would stop playing if he was close? Those same steroids that youre claiming helped him home run total,also hurt his AB's total and his years played total,two big ways a person hits homeruns. Basically until you can find a way to figure out how many home runs he lost as opposed to how many he gained you have no clue how many he would've hit clean. You know baseball colluded to limit him to 762 despite the fact he would've made every team better last year and this year,and maybe further,thats the only thing youre certain about.

If you really want to point fingers during his 73 home run season,point to his armor pad on his elbow that allowed him to crowd the plate and the ridiculously small strike zone the umpires gave him all year,if he didnt swing it wasnt a strike and that year he only swung at good pitches. I don't think people really understand what he did that year,he had no fear of being backed off the plate and he had probably the best pitch selection I've ever seen,coupled with a strike zone the size of a notebook. You give anyone that much respect and that much discipline for an entire season and they will do damage. Steroids didnt give him that body armor,small strike zone and amazing patience.

As far as Aaron,give me proof that he never did a thing wrong when he had ways to get better that werent legal at the time as well,steroids and uppers arent a new thing. This guy set a career high in homers at the age of 37,hit 40 homeruns at the age of 39 and went downhill pretty quick after setting the record,one of the most revered records in sports. You dont think he possibly couldve looked for help as he got older and neared the record and once he reached it he was satisfied and able to play by the books and come back to earth.Name another guy who hit a career high in homers that late in his career and still hit 40 homers afterwards...Barry Bonds come to mind? Anyone else...nope,and supposedly Bonds only did it with help. To say youre 100% certain on anyone is only a happy thought because you cant be proven wrong without any tests that say otherwise.

In closing,if for some reason you read this far,read the first paragraph again and believe whatever you want to believe,a book that has facts that are obviously wrong,can't tell you what's right,just ask Matt Kilroy.

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Posted By: marty q

to me it's very simple, if you can ban pete rose for life, then ban all the cheats for life and any record breaking feat is now null and void, but that list needs to come out, the other 103 players, not fair to the innocent ones, above anyother baseball is a numbers game, keep those numbers sacred. im my mind roger maris is still the single season holder and hank aaron is the all-time holder, someone should interview the maris family now and ask how they feel, i betcha they feel alot differently than 1998 i"ll tell you that....if you have proof of a cheater you cannot hold a major leauge record of any kind. period !!!


And the official MLB record holders are:

Aaron 755
Maris 61
Cobb 4189

i don't agree with cobb, rose did not take any ped's. just my 2 cents..he was a gambler not a steroid cheat. but the rules say he should be banned, and so should they...

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I think we should move it back to Gavvy Cravath.

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Posted By: Fred C

HR ascension order, beginning in 1872 -

1872 - 1879 Lip Pike (20)
1880 - 1881 Charley Jones (23)
1882 - 1882 Jim O'Rourke (24)
1883 - 1884 Charley Jones (40)
1885 - 1886 Harry Stovey (57)
1887 - 1888 Dan Brouthers (74)
1889 - 1894 Harry Stovey (122)
1895 - 1920 Roger Connor (138)
1921 - 1973 Babe Ruth (714)
1974 - 2006 Hank Aaron (755)
2007 - 2008 Barry Bonds (762)*

I just don't see the astersiks because regardless whether or not a player was juiced, they actually hit the HR or drove in a run, scored a run, struck someon out regardless of their PED usage. In some ways I think they should release all 100+ players that failed the test but maybe MLB sees it as something that would really hurt baseball. What happens if we find someone like Griffery Jr (or someone else so revered) ends up on that list. Do we really want to know this?


500HR Club Members that are on the all juiced team:

McGwire
Palmiero
Bonds
A-Fraud
Sosa

There are 24 members (Sheffield is at 499) of the 500HR club. Over twenty percent (that we know of have been juiced). Other possibilities include (players from this era):

Griffey Jr
Manny
Thome
Thomas

If the above 4 + Sheffield make the list then that would mean that 40% of the club would have been juiced.

That's a lot of asterisks just for HRs.

What about pitchers? There's Clemens...

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Posted By: Bobby I.

Again, totally disgusted as stated previously but just happened to notice something yesterday that you might find interesting. In the history of baseball there have been only 15 instances where a player has hit 100 HRS in a consecutive 2 year period. A-Roid appears on that list twice and can anyone guess the period? What a surprise 2001-2002 and 2002-2003. Others of note: Sosa 3 times, McGwire twice, Ruth twice, Griffey twice, Bonds 3 times, Foxx once, and a few otheres. Point being virtually 70% of this stat was generated within the past 10 years, if someone fails to draw the corollary that steriods increase power production they are as blind as Selig. Proven and admitted PED users have to have all career stats removed from the record books, period no discussion. If a few users have been able to sidestep discovery then so be it but you have to take a stand. Just look at that list all but Ruth, Griffey and Foxx should be eliminted.

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Posted By: Erick Lewin

If Selig ever tried to ban certain stats of PED users, why wouldn't he have to go back through all eras and ban other cheating players stats. PED's are just one form of cheating.

Throughout baseballs history there have been players cheating and looking to find an edge in any way they can. From spitballs, scuffed balls, pine tar, juiced balls, sharpened spikes!,corked bats etc...The list is endless. For some reason people tend to talk about these forms of cheating with just a wink or a nod, and don't think it's as severe of a form of cheating. Why not? Maybe a corked bat with a clean player provides the same amount of extra force to a hit ball as a non-corked bat with a juiced player? Why do these old timers get a pass on all the methods they came up with to cheat the game? The old time players used whatever were the best methods of cheating for their generation as players today are doing now. Does anyone honestly believe that no old time legendary players wouldn't have usded steroids or ther PED's if given the opportunity.

I believe there shouldn't be any asterisks or erasing of records from the books, because of all the problems that arise with the idea. There will always be an unwritten known asterisk with certain guys. For me personally, I will just look as this era by itself and realize I can't compare the numbers to older generation ballplayers. I will look at this generation by itself and just look at who was the best of this time-period. Because, that's all we can do. We can't compare these guys to past generations.

And, To anyone who thinks that 103 list should come out: Even if it does, it's only the tip of the iceberg. That's just who got caught in one year, for one ANNOUNCED drug test that the players knew was coming. If the true list of everyone ever came out, it would truly be shocking and completlely devastating. There is no way to ever be certain that anyone from the past 15-20 years or more have been clean.

Sorry for the long-windedness.

E. Lewin

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Posted By: D. C. Markel

As someone who used to read a lot of Bill James and passionately studied Sabermetrics, I feel the whole concept of Home Run King is way overblown and should be ignored. If you look at the all-time list of Slugging Percentage Leaders, which is a better indication of hitting for power based on the number of at-bats, the statistics may be surprising, (except for Ruth of course) - especially when you see where Mantle, Mays and Aaron rank:

1. B Ruth .690
2. T Williams .634
3. L Gehrig .632
4. J Foxx .609
5. B Bonds .607
6. H Greenberg .605
7. M Ramirez* .593
8. M McGwire .588
9. J DiMaggio .579
10. A Rodriguez* .578
11. R Hornsby .577
12. V Guerrero* .575
13. T Helton* .574
14. L Walker .565
15. A Belle .564
16. J Mize .562
17. J Gonzalez* .561
18. J Thome* .560
19. S Musial .559
21. M Mantle .557
21. W Mays .557
22. H Aaron .555
22. F Thomas* .555
24. C Jones* .548
24. R Kiner .548

In short, MLB needs to just downplay HR King and make a big push to hype the idea of "Slugging King".

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Posted By: Don

"And the official MLB record holders are:

Aaron 755
Maris 61
Cobb 4189

i don't agree with cobb, rose did not take any ped's. just my 2 cents..he was a gambler not a steroid cheat. but the rules say he should be banned, and so should they..."


The point I was making is that anyone banned has their stats removed from MLB records. I realize that might not be quite the same issue for someone like Pete Rose, but it would be an objective solution to the problem. Hence my "sorry Pete" comment because since he's banned, his records must be removed also.

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Posted By: Vintage Clout

Where do we draw the line in the sand? I am certainly no fan of Bonds, Clemens, McGuire, etc. but you CANNOT simply erase records from the book with "white out"! Keep in mind that of approximately 750 Major League players, you can bet that "at least" 500 or 2/3 are taking performance enhancing drugs and it is NOT because these players want to set records...there is simply too much money involved not to. Therefore, a significant number of pitchers are included in this group which enhances THEIR performance and quite possibly leveling the playing field. I was speaking with an ex-minor league pitcher a few months ago and was informed that taking "HGH" over several months will instanly add 3 - 5 miles per hour on the average professional level fastball!

It is certainly got out of hand and Selig did absolutely NOTHING all along to "push" for more testing and severe punishments......now he wants to be a hero.....give me a break! Unfortunately, I think it is going to get worse and I truely worry about the future of our National Pastime.

Regards,
VC

P.S. - Kudos to players like Jeter, Maddux and Griffey (especially Griffey who needed HGH in the twilight of his career more than anybody but refused to compromise his integrity!) who continue to be PERFECT representations of everything our National Pastime should stand for!