Future National Locations - Same Old Story

[Jewish-collector]

There are many locations/venues that can't host the National for one reason or another:

Some venues are too small and/or don't have enough hotel rooms
Some venues are not convenient to airports
Some venues/cities the union stuff too expensive and/or other legal issues
Some venues charge too much for having events in their building
Some venues/cities are not good baseball and/or sports towns
Some venues don't want it scheduled too far in the future.
etc,... etc,... etc,...

After all of this analysis, it turns out Chicago (and Cleveland before the IX closed) were the only two cities that check all the boxes with the National committee and this is why they were alternating between these two. Now, since the IX reopened, Cleveland may or may not become a regular venue for the show. And, Atlantic City may or may not also be in the discussion. We shall see.

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by Jewish-collector

There are many locations/venues that can't host the National for one reason or another:

Some venues are too small and/or don't have enough hotel rooms
Some venues are not convenient to airports
Some venues/cities the union stuff too expensive and/or other legal issues
Some venues charge too much for having events in their building
Some venues/cities are not good baseball and/or sports towns
Some venues don't want it scheduled too far in the future.
etc,... etc,... etc,...

After all of this analysis, it turns out Chicago (and Cleveland before the IX closed) were the only two cities that check all the boxes with the National committee and this is why they were alternating between these two. Now, since the IX reopened, Cleveland may or may not become a regular venue for the show. And, Atlantic City may or may not also be in the discussion. We shall see.

I believe Tampa would check all the boxes, with the possible exceptions of the first and last. The convention center only has 200K-300K sqft. And the Riverwalk area of downtown is amazing now.

[sb1]

The one item that is the most important factor is the facility cost. They are in this business to make money and that weighs head shoulders above the other factors, all of which also have a part in the decision where to hold the event.

Many of the locations mentioned are cities with first class facilities, but odds are, they want to make good money off their facility.

[Frank A]

Originally Posted by Jewish-collector

There are many locations/venues that can't host the National for one reason or another:

Some venues are too small and/or don't have enough hotel rooms
Some venues are not convenient to airports
Some venues/cities the union stuff too expensive and/or other legal issues
Some venues charge too much for having events in their building
Some venues/cities are not good baseball and/or sports towns
Some venues don't want it scheduled too far in the future.
etc,... etc,... etc,...

After all of this analysis, it turns out Chicago (and Cleveland before the IX closed) were the only two cities that check all the boxes with the National committee and this is why they were alternating between these two. Now, since the IX reopened, Cleveland may or may not become a regular venue for the show. And, Atlantic City may or may not also be in the discussion. We shall see.

What? Do you work for the National committee. What a bunch of bullshit. There are places all over the country that can host a national quite nicely.

[sb1]

See post above...........

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by todeen

Although there is no MLB team, Spokane WA has the logistics to hold the National. We have major events here every year: Hoopfest 3 on 3 tournament, Bloomsday race, and tons of other events. Look up how many people attend Hoopfest (24k players) and Bloomsday (30k to 40k runners). Everything is walking distance downtown, and Riverfront Park and mall is a nice distraction. The Davenport Collection of hotels is top notch. Organizers could choose to hold the show in the convention center or the arena, both of which are walking distance to local hotels. And most hotels have shuttles to and from the airport, and to and from the convention center if someone doesn't want to walk. And if you want a beach day, Coeur d'Alene is 30 minutes drive away. CDA is gorgeous in the summertime.

Sent from my SM-G9900 using Tapatalk

The venue for the 2021 National - the Donald E. Stephenson Convention Center - is 840,000 sq ft. The Spokane Convention Center is 120,000. And the Spokane Arena is even smaller (32,000 on the floor).

And, unfortunately, after you get past the Davenport hotels, there's not a ton of great options.

I don't think Spokane would be a great fit at all. I'd love it to happen, though, since I live there!

[Jewish-collector]

Originally Posted by Frank A

What? Do you work for the National committee. What a bunch of bullshit. There are places all over the country that can host a national quite nicely.

This is what they have always claimed. I don't agree with them.

[Alexcards]

I never skip a National, but I'm not going to AC, decided to go to the Philly Show in September instead..... Chicago and Cleveland are great locations. I setup at the Culture Collision show in Atlanta this year and it was very well attended by both dealers and and patrons. It was run by a new group and I think they hit a Home Run.

[Exhibitman]

Could always be worse:

[jiw98]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Tampa in February. "The Winter National" Works for me. I will arrange a Net 54 event at the Mons Venus club.

A Winter National in Tampa or even Orlando would be fine with me. I'm sure that I could find some time to go in between rounds.

[notfast]

Chicago is the perfect location. Easy access to hotel, airport, food, entertainment etc.

It should be there annually.

Also, Baltimore will never happen again.

[jiw98]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Could always be worse:

The area down by the stadiums, casinos, Fox Theater, etc are much improved. A lot of activity down there. That being said, I don't think Detroit could host the national.
And, yes there are also areas in Detroit as shown in your picture. Just like any other large city.

[npa589]

Without reading any previous comments, I have long believed that if the National came to West Palm Beach, FL, it might never leave.

There is a beautiful convention center in downtown West Palm, surrounded by hotels, and across the street from Ruth Chris, and a myriad of other restaurant and shopping options (Rosemary Square). That doesn't even include Clematis street, which is just a tiny bit further, and triples your options for post card-geeking enjoyment. It's also a 4 minute walk from the intracoastal, and 15-20 minute walk (5 minute drive) to the Atlantic Ocean. There are also a couple churches nearby if you're feeling religious.

It's a straight shot from Belvedere to 95 to Okeechobee, or Belvedere to Dixie to Okeechobee. You have the Brightline train that quickly can take you to Miami and back as well. Need I say more?

:-)

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Tabe

The venue for the 2021 National - the Donald E. Stephenson Convention Center - is 840,000 sq ft. The Spokane Convention Center is 120,000. And the Spokane Arena is even smaller (32,000 on the floor).

And, unfortunately, after you get past the Davenport hotels, there's not a ton of great options.

I don't think Spokane would be a great fit at all. I'd love it to happen, though, since I live there!

Pfffft........that's nothing. Cleveland's IX Center is over 2,2 million square feet. And there are multiple floors below ground. That along with its huge surrounding parking lot, freeway access, and literally being at the end of the Cleveland Hopkins Airport runway, pretty much makes its logistics unrivaled by any other convention center I've ever heard of. What it lacks though is all the hotels, bars, restaurants, etc. being crammed all around it, within walking distance. Some would say that is a good thing as it doesn't distract and lure attendees away to other things. Others would say it's a bad thing because some people won't attend due to all those other amenities/distractions not being within walking distance.

Truth is, there is tons to do and see in and around Cleveland and the IX Center, but you really need a car. And unlike most major cities, Cleveland doesn't have anything near the traffic congestion of other cities, like Chicago. You can easily get to where you want, just have to know where you're going. And I'm pretty sure accommodations in Cleveland are more reasonable than say Chicago. The savings can easily go towards a rental car. But for those that just want a shuttle from the airport to their hotel, and can then just walk back and forth to the National, I can understand why they don't care much for Cleveland.

I know a new group came along, as I expected, to reopen the IX Center, but to my knowledge there's been no actual confirmation of booking a specific future date for holding another National there, at least not yet, correct?

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by npa589

Without reading any previous comments, I have long believed that if the National came to West Palm Beach, FL, it might never leave.

There is a beautiful convention center in downtown West Palm, surrounded by hotels, and across the street from Ruth Chris, and a myriad of other restaurant and shopping options (Rosemary Square). That doesn't even include Clematis street, which is just a tiny bit further, and triples your options for post card-geeking enjoyment. It's also a 4 minute walk from the intracoastal, and 15-20 minute walk (5 minute drive) to the Atlantic Ocean. There are also a couple churches nearby if you're feeling religious.

It's a straight shot from Belvedere to 95 to Okeechobee, or Belvedere to Dixie to Okeechobee. You have the Brightline train that quickly can take you to Miami and back as well. Need I say more?

:-)

Wow looks amazing !!! I'm down for West Palm Beach Close to SGC no reason for them not to grade on-site there.

[npa589]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Wow looks amazing !!! I'm down for West Palm Beach Close to SGC no reason for them not to grade on-site there.

Didn't even think to mention SGC...haha!

[ajjohnsonsoxfan]

The desire for more geographical options for the National seems like a great business opportunity for someone. someone? anyone?

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by Leon

Mike spoke at several of the Net54baseball dinners and laid out the reasoning for their venue choices. A lot of things have to be able to work. The size of the venue, the contract being some years out has to be able to be signed, unions, ingress and egress and cost, among the most important, as I remember.
They could still spread it out if they wanted to, imo.
One of my main issues is that tables are sold out for years, last time I checked. That just shouldn't happen.
.

Whenever this topic comes up, I like to present the (rather lengthy) posts below from a thread on this forum in 2009 from Mike Berkus. 13 years is quite some time ago, but I think what he states from an insider view are probably still the factors under consideration, and why we still have the set venue sites from that time forward.

Brian


Just a quick note to consider. I hear the same issues that are being bounced around on the thread from our National dealers and our Board of Directors, so the questions and suggestions are not new but still worthy of listening to. It would be impossible to satisfy everyone, just not possible. Families traveling to the National have totally different needs than individual collectors. We tried to work out packages in Anaheim to Disneyland, Knotts, Angel games, etc. but the groups that we did our deals with were totally disappointed with the turnout of response and do not care to work with us anymore. Response was minimal and we were advised to just let those that want to see sights, booked their tickets or times on their own. It became apparent to us that we need to concentrate on our show rather than outside venues. We do try to include all different price hotels in our block of rooms and we usually know the areas well enough to suggest food and entertainment to those that ask but few attendees ask. As for smaller cities, i.e. Knoxville, two problems exist. First, the total amount of exhibit space advertised on their website is 120,000 sq ft. This is on the first floor only, additional floors have a combination of 250,000 sq ft but broken up. We cannot house a National in that small of a facility and certainly not in broken up space and different floors. Second issue is population. We expect at least 50% of our attendance to be of a local nature, within 1 hour drive to the facility. That means that a smaller base population could mean much smaller attendance. My life would be threatened by our dealer base if I made that mistake.

Trust me on a couple of fronts. After 30 years of the National, I am somewhat familiar with the primary issues of hosting a show. The following examples are listed by priority to us, as promoters. 1) facility - must be all on 1 floor with 300,000sq ft min. 2) decorator charge - Cleveland leads in permitting dealer easy set up, that is the absolute primary reason for our repeated visits. We pay the union/decorator $45 per dealer, upfront, to turn their backs on union rules. We do not pass this charge onto the dealer and we pay it for the entire room, every booth, regardless whether the dealer uses the service or not. It is a flat fee to us and run anywhere from $23k to $28K total. Without this, dealers would pay hundreds to wait inline with their inventories and have union workers deliver the stock to each booth. 3) is local population. We would like at least 15,000 local people to join us at the show. We have a local ad and marketing budget of $50,000.00 just to encourage the sports person to either come to buy items or sell what they may have been sitting on for years. 4) local expenses to our out of towners. This includes hotel, food, parking, etc. fees that we try to keep reasonable. 5) hours of the show. We know that 2-3 days is plenty for local attendees but persons who fly in or drive a great distance want as much value for their time as possible. Also dealers need to have a full slate of hours open, to guarantee a strong financial return on their investment. We could hardly expect a VIP attendee to pay $119 for the VIP package and only have 3 days of the show, less autograph tickets, or special product sets. Also, dealers do leave early on Sunday! This is a double edge sword to us. We do not want to impose sanctions on our dealer base. We are not in the police business and the more rules we impose the more problems we all face. Our promoter team has taken it's lumps for allowing dealers to leave early. We have to close our admission booths down at least 3 hours before we are officially closed to not cheat any attendees out of their time on the show and if some booths are empty. This results in a financial loss to us with about an average of 1000 or more attendees come into the show for free. What some dealers don't realize is that many large sales have been recorded by the dealers who stay until the end. But, the bottom line of responsibility, is our job. If we put 10,000 customers on the floor at 4:40pm on Sunday, dealers would stay. We just can't find that formula to gather consumer interest after 2-3pm. We continue to try.

Well, there you have it. The instant guide for promoting a National. On one hand, there is a ton of improvement that constantly needs to be reviewed. On the other hand, we must have done one or two things right, next year in Baltimore will be our 31st annual National. We have weathered the downswing in collecting, the negative press articles, bad economies, loss of local shows and collecting base, and even the attitudes of convention centers who do not want our business. As I mentioned before, we are taking serious looks at Las Vegas, Boston, St. Louis, and anywhere on the West Coast that comes close to matching the above priorities. Baltimore is getting a very strong and positive reaction by our hobby and that is a very good sign. Sometimes it's just up to attitude that can make a difference in how succesful our show is.

Anyway, keep the passion, without it we have no hobby. Even if it's in the form of a complaint. I have grown a couple layers of thick skin over the last 30 years and can handle a lot, just as long as the National survives.

Regards,

Mike Berkus


OK, there have been some very passionate comments made and some very complimentary statements as well. I thank Jim, Rich, Leon, and others who truly care about the National and attend with a love of this hobby. Many issues concerning the show are just not known by so many people. I think that most of you, once explained, understand what can and cannot be done. All sites of the National are voted on by the dealers. No one, myself included, can select a National location without the dealers voting. Anything that happens at our show, booth fees, site selection, expenses, decorating, etc. are approved by the Board of Directors (which I am not a member), before they are put in place. Our show is owned by the dealers and everything is decided by the dealers. Once the show location is approved, my team (John Broggi, Bob Wilke, and myself) are directed to operate the show under the terms laid out by the Board of Directors. We do not make these decisions on our own. It truly matters not to me where the dealers choose our show location, I am consumed by creating the marketing, advertising, and partnerships so desperately needed by the National, to make thing work best. My role is the same regardless of the site. For those of you who think I make all these decisions, check with the Board of Directors and you will find the truth. Truth be told, I am the least political of anyone. I just want the show to survive. It is a matter of pride. No one has more fun at a National than me. I live for it.

Most dealers and collectors do not care about the details of the show. They just want it right, when they get there. They want the booth selection that they picked out ready, tables, sign, and chairs. They want the show to open on time and have no cares what the fire marshall might desire or demand. I don't blame them! They pay the freight of the show and that means I work for them. Many of the participants of the National have no idea what we have discussed so far on this thread and could care less. As Rich said " the old dealer meetings lasted until 2am". Today, our dealer meetings last 15 minutes. Things run smooth because both the Board of Directors and our promotion group are on the same track. Keep it simple and do it right. If you want a scary moment, walk into a 500,000 sq ft facility 2 days before setup and take a hard look at an huge empty area. Then, worry about filling it up with dealers, attendees, corporate sponsors, and staffing. That always gets to me before each National. No matter how many shows I have done, I always worry that this one will fail. It is what keeps me honest and working hard.

Whether it is Frank wanting Knoxville or anyone else with ideas that differ from what we are doing currently, I am always interested in hearing about it. But, once the music starts, just like a ballgame, it is too late for talking we have a show to run. Aside from seems like my complaining, I wouldn't have it any other way. I love being part of the show and hope that some of the information I have passed on is helpful to you. I know that without your participation, we would be far worse off. We need all of you to care, imput ideas, and most of all, be at the show.

Good luck to everyone for the next year and if I can be of any help, my email is (edited it out). I truly enjoy hearing from you. Hope everyone can make it to Baltimore. Most importantly, stay well, none of us are young!

Best regards,

Mike

[KCRfan1]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

Las Vegas seems to be a viable option, they're in the business of hosting conventions. SF is just a sh*t hole now.

So is LA.

Be prepared to spend all your savings on hotel rooms and nothing at the event.

Cali is a terrible option IMO. Some will disagree, but for the masses there are better options.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by chriskim

Vegas Baby!

Not opposed to Vegas, but wouldn't be surprised if the dealers were against it. They want attendees spending money with them at the show, not in casinos all day and night losing money. Plus, not sure the costs will be very inexpensive for dealers getting in and out.

[egri]

Originally Posted by BobC

Not opposed to Vegas, but wouldn't be surprised if the dealers were against it. They want attendees spending money with them at the show, not in casinos all day and night losing money. Plus, not sure the costs will be very inexpensive for dealers getting in and out.

Couldn’t the same be said about Atlantic City?

[Vintagedeputy]

I live in Richmond, Va. and spend a lot of time in Virginia Beach, Va.

Both locations have convention centers, plenty of hotels, close-by airports, major highways, minor league baseball, and many non-sports activities for the whole family.

The National needs to spread out: Richmond, Phoenix, Milwaukee, Kansas City, Raleigh, Tampa, Denver, etc. Hit the cities that are not Chicago, Detroit, etc.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by npa589

Didn't even think to mention SGC...haha!

Dont feel bad, hardly worth it

[egri]

Originally Posted by Vintagedeputy

I live in Richmond, Va. and spend a lot of time in Virginia Beach, Va.

Both locations have convention centers, plenty of hotels, close-by airports, major highways, minor league baseball, and many non-sports activities for the whole family.

The National needs to spread out: Richmond, Phoenix, Milwaukee, Kansas City, Raleigh, Tampa, Denver, etc. Hit the cities that are not Chicago, Detroit, etc.

Living in Norfolk, I second that!

[x2drich2000]

Originally Posted by Vintagedeputy

I live in Richmond, Va. and spend a lot of time in Virginia Beach, Va.

Both locations have convention centers, plenty of hotels, close-by airports, major highways, minor league baseball, and many non-sports activities for the whole family.

No offense, but I hope you are kidding. Both are way too small. The Richmond convention center is 178k sqft and Virginia Beach is 150k sqft. For comparison, Chicago is 840k, AC is 480k, and Cleveland is >1mm sqft. Baltimore is the smallest in recent history at 300k sqft and that was packed wall to wall.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by egri

Couldn’t the same be said about Atlantic City?

Yes, to an extent, but the gambling scene there isn't as prevalent and as well liked as in Vegas anymore. Plus, it is East coast, which is more accessible for a lot of the dealers that attend. Driving/flying inventory all the way to Vegas isn't cheap I'm guessing either. They also have the boardwalk and ocean, so if anyone comes with family and friends, they have something else to occupy their time, not mainly gambling and casinos. And don't forget, Vegas is exceedingly hot that time of the year.

From what I got from those re-posted remarks in the earlier post #68, the dealers have much more say in the location selection than many would think. And assuming the dealers are pretty consistent from year to year, seems to me that to get some more serious consideration for any of these new locations everyone's touting, the trick to doing so may be to replace more East coast/Midwest US dealers with attending dealers from different parts of the country. But if you add say five such new dealers, and they're from Phoenix, Dallas, Denver, Seattle, and LA, they are all over the place and very unlikely to get together to vote for one their own cities/areas as a bloc.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by ajjohnsonsoxfan

The desire for more geographical options for the National seems like a great business opportunity for someone. someone? anyone?

This show is having it’s debut event next month. It looks promising. I know the owners would ultimately like to move it around the country.

https://www.worldsofsport.com/

[ngnichols]

Yeah, these are the same morons that told us Dallas wasn't a good location for the National, LOL. Ok.

It should rotate from Chicago, Dallas, Las Vegas, and Atlanta.

Each of those are easily accessible by flight from virtually anywhere in the U.S., have facilities required for enough space to hold the event, have ample hotel space, and are destination places that people actually want to go to.

Cleveland and Atlantic City are garbage locations and the only reason they are held there is more than likely they have a concession there for labor and get the venue for "cheap."

There is no way I'm spending money to go hang out in Atlantic City for a week. I went to Cleveland for 1.5 days and regretted it completely.

[Vintagedeputy]

Originally Posted by x2drich2000

No offense, but I hope you are kidding. Both are way too small. The Richmond convention center is 178k sqft and Virginia Beach is 150k sqft. For comparison, Chicago is 840k, AC is 480k, and Cleveland is >1mm sqft. Baltimore is the smallest in recent history at 300k sqft and that was packed wall to wall.

Actually, I’m not.

If there’s a trade off in giving in to a smaller location which then allows the hobby to reach different people with access to things they’ve never seen, I’m all for it.

Nothing says that everything has to be in one building either. Lots of city-wide events are held in different places. The Richmond CC is right next to the downtown Marriott hotel with meeting room space and just blocks away from the AA Flying Squirrels (SF Giants) stadium and Arthur Ashe Rec Center (with 72K square feet of meeting space)….not to mention the Bon Secours (formerly Redskins) Training Center.

Tons of space available around the city that would welcome the National.

[tbob]

The logistics for getting to Atlantic City rules it out for me. My personal preferences are, alternating, Chicago, Nashville and Minneapolis or Kansas City. I've been to too many shows in Cleveland and will never go to A/C so considering other cities is what I would like to see in the future. I remember the great Arlington, TX shows and wouldn't object to that as a landing site also.
Disney is seriously thinking about relocating WDW with all the insanity from DiSantis so they could probably be interested.

[maniac_73]

Originally Posted by tbob

The logistics for getting to Atlantic City rules it out for me. My personal preferences are, alternating, Chicago, Nashville and Minneapolis or Kansas City. I've been to too many shows in Cleveland and will never go to A/C so considering other cities is what I would like to see in the future. I remember the great Arlington, TX shows and wouldn't object to that as a landing site also.
Disney is seriously thinking about relocating WDW with all the insanity from DiSantis so they could probably be interested.

Disney isn’t going anywhere


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[BobC]

Originally Posted by ngnichols

Cleveland and Atlantic City are garbage locations and the only reason they are held there is more than likely they have a concession there for labor and get the venue for "cheap."

There is no way I'm spending money to go hang out in Atlantic City for a week. I went to Cleveland for 1.5 days and regretted it completely.

Why, because there was nothing else right around the IX Center in Cleveland to draw your attention and money, so you had to spend all your time and money at the show? I would actually think that is exactly what most all the dealers at the National would want.

There is the Rock and Roll HOF and Museum, the League Park field/museum where the Naps used to play and is the site of the first ever (unofficial) all-star game held as a benefit for Addie Joss' widow and family, the Canton Football HOF is only about an hour's drive away as well. Along with an actual national park only about a 15 minute drive away. The Indians/Guardians play in the city (as do the Browns and Cavaliers), and there are several minor league teams that play in the area as well. Casino gambling and other downtown Cleveland sites and amenities, such as restaurants and some gorgeous historic architecture, can be easily reached by taking the rapid transit from the airport. And that includes the Playhouse Square theatre district, which just happens to be the largest performing arts center in the US, outside of New York city. And of course, the airport is literally right next to the IX Center, which logistically is super accessible, and also another point favoring Cleveland for visitors.

Case in point, when I went to the very first Cleveland National back in the 90's, I was getting a lot of baseballs autographed. Was standing in front of Sandy Koufax to get two baseballs signed, and to make small talk, asked him how he liked coming to Cleveland. He actually stopped signing, and looked up at me for a moment with a reflective look on his face, and then said he didn't really know. He continued that a car picked him up at the airport and drove him right over to the show, and when his signing session was done, a car would take him right back to the airport so he'd board his flight back home. Kind of shrugged his shoulders and said he really wasn't going to see anything of the city to tell. I told him that's funny, because that's basically exactly what Bill Mazeroski had said. To which he got an excited look on his face and blurted out, "Maz is here?". I told him yeah, he was on the other side of the autograph pavilion. So, with a happy smile on his face he thanked me, and said he had to be sure to go find him before he left to say hi. He said no one told him who all was going to be there signing at the show. Finished signing for me, and gave me a big smile and a resounding handshake.

So there actually may be an awful lot more to see and do in Cleveland than you can imagine, you just have to get off your duff and go do something. And the ease and convenience of getting celebrity guests in and out of the show, along with accessibility to dealers and "reasonable" costs for setting up, are likely important contributing factors as well. Calling Cleveland and Atlantic City "cheap" seems a tad inappropriate, especially when you're comparing them to other big cities that may have a tendency to be way overpriced. Never forget the National is a business venture, first and foremost, so operating costs for the show and dealers will always be a primary concern. But a lot of naysayers are happy to complain about the venues, because the effort and work, along with the direct costs of setting up and paying for everything, aren't really their concern, are they? It is real easy to complain about something you're not responsible for.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Vintagedeputy

Actually, I’m not.

If there’s a trade off in giving in to a smaller location which then allows the hobby to reach different people with access to things they’ve never seen, I’m all for it.

Nothing says that everything has to be in one building either. Lots of city-wide events are held in different places. The Richmond CC is right next to the downtown Marriott hotel with meeting room space and just blocks away from the AA Flying Squirrels (SF Giants) stadium and Arthur Ashe Rec Center (with 72K square feet of meeting space)….not to mention the Bon Secours (formerly Redskins) Training Center.

Tons of space available around the city that would welcome the National.

How do you propose to explain to some dealers there is no room for them at one of these smaller venues then, or that their table space is going to be cut. And how do you pick and choose such decisions among the dealers without ticking anyone off?

And as for the multiple location idea for the show's venue, that can be a logistics nightmare. Instead of just having one or two doors to watch, each different location is now going to require more people to watch who comes and goes. And more people = more costs. And what about dealers who want to be in only the main area, and not buried in some smaller, off-site venue no one really wants to go to. And that's just off the top of my head.

[carlsonjok]

Originally Posted by BobC

So there actually may be an awful lot more to see and do in Cleveland than you can imagine, you just have to get off your duff and go do something.

I've only been to one National and it was Cleveland in 2018 because I could stay with family and save the cost of a hotel. And Cleveland is a great town. My wife and I have talked about, when we are ready to stop dealing with the farm, retiring to one of the neighborhoods near downtown like Ohio City or Tremont. Ohio City in particular is a great place to visit with all sorts of restaurants and microbreweries. And for folks who like amusement parks, Cedar Point is just an hour away.

As far as alternate locations, I have been to three of the Dallas shows in recent years and I thought they were well organized. I would have thought, contra Rich, that they could probably put on a good National show. But, what about Houston? I wouldn't want to live there, but the TriStar show seems to do fairly well.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by tbob

Disney is seriously thinking about relocating WDW.

Hahaha, yeah right sure they are.

And the city of San Francisco (similar in acreage to WDW) is sick of fog, so they are seriosly thinking about moving to Nevada.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by carlsonjok

I've only been to one National and it was Cleveland in 2018 because I could stay with family and save the cost of a hotel. And Cleveland is a great town. My wife and I have talked about, when we are ready to stop dealing with the farm, retiring to one of the neighborhoods near downtown like Ohio City or Tremont. Ohio City in particular is a great place to visit with all sorts of restaurants and microbreweries. And for folks who like amusement parks, Cedar Point is just an hour away.

As far as alternate locations, I have been to three of the Dallas shows in recent years and I thought they were well organized. I would have thought, contra Rich, that they could probably put on a good National show. But, what about Houston? I wouldn't want to live there, but the TriStar show seems to do fairly well.

Ohio City is very cool. Close by the famous Westside Market, which is also where Great Lakes Brewery is headquartered and has a restaurant/bar. And there is another great little eating establishment in the heart of the very residential area of Ohio City called Heck's Cafe, which also happens to be maybe 100 feet down the street from John Heisman's birthplace.

[Exhibitman]

I am going to go with the unpopular opinion here: I like the Cleveland show, sort of the way you like the weird cousin you visit with at a family event--not exactly someone you'd pal around with all the time, but interesting every year or so. As long as you understand that you are going to be in a car every day to and from the venue, and in a car any time you want to get a decent meal. The airport is easy to get through, the hotel aren't walkable to the show but some are pretty close, and once you resign yourself to a drive, you can find some really good places to eat. Last time a group of us had a couple of really good dinners in town. We just had to drive there. Good ice cream too...if that makes a difference.

As for Vegas, I've been to a number of bar association events there in the summer months, and have gone there on trips myself. Yeah, it is hot outside, but everything is available and room prices are really good. Plus, the airport is world class.

[Neal]

Originally Posted by tbob

The logistics for getting to Atlantic City rules it out for me. My personal preferences are, alternating, Chicago, Nashville and Minneapolis or Kansas City. I've been to too many shows in Cleveland and will never go to A/C so considering other cities is what I would like to see in the future. I remember the great Arlington, TX shows and wouldn't object to that as a landing site also.
Disney is seriously thinking about relocating WDW with all the insanity from DiSantis so they could probably be interested.

LOL. Disney will never relocate.

[Jewish-collector]

Adam - You used to hate the National in Cleveland. What changed your mind ?

[Exhibitman]

Driving. Being from LA it is a treat for me to go a place where I do not need a car, so I hate having to rent a car and deal with it, but last time I decided to go with it and had a good time. Getting away from the IX Center is critical, as is not using the bathrooms there after 10:00 a.m. (worst place to drop a deuce this side of TJ). Still, Rosemont is light years better.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Driving. Being from LA it is a treat for me to go a place where I do not need a car, so I hate having to rent a car and deal with it, but last time I decided to go with it and had a good time. Getting away from the IX Center is critical, as is not using the bathrooms there after 10:00 a.m. (worst place to drop a deuce this side of TJ). Still, Rosemont is light years better.

Huge difference is there's little traffic in and around Cleveland.

[Exhibitman]

That's true but in Rosemont I can skip the car entirely.

[Snapolit1]

People running the National want to maximize attendance, maximize sales, maximize publicity, and maximize profit. If there were better places to have it from their point of view I can't imagine what their incentive would be to ignore them.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

That's true but in Rosemont I can skip the car entirely.

Absolutely correct! But figured being from the LA area, traffic was a big reason you didn't like driving.

[egri]

It sounds like there won’t be a change of venue until a National (or likely, a few Nationals) is a flop. In this crazy market, it could be a while.

[bounce]

Chicago is the best location all things considered. Easy to get to, good event space, good amenities.

Cleveland is pretty easy to get to, and the site is pretty good. It's the lack of amenities in and around the site that is the primary issue.

Atlantic City is a major hassle to get to, but the site is pretty good and the amenities are good. Being that close to New York I suspect is actually what keeps it in the mix.

I heard good things about Baltimore, although it's not as easy to get to as Chicago/Cleveland. However, I seem to recall there were some site issues that ultimately dropped it out of the future mix.

I went to the National in Anaheim, it was a really good show from my perspective. However, I do think cost, including cost of the amenities (hotels specifically) creates some issue there because of the Disney proximity.

I'd certainly be willing to do Dallas, easy to get to and pretty good amenities.
Houston is easy to get to and tons of great amenities.
I'd be willing to try Kansas City.
Phoenix could easily handle this, but it would be lung burning hot that time of year.
Vegas could easily handle this, I've never heard a good reason why The National is the only convention that can't seem to make it work - and the gambling argument is dumb.
Atlanta would very likely work.
Orlando probably could work, although it possibly has some similar Anaheim type issues.
Nashville is too small, it's somewhat of a pain to get to.
San Diego works for Comic Con, seems like it could work for this? But the non-show stuff I'm sure is pretty expensive.
What about Denver?

At the end of the day, unless things changed for cities to submit "bids", I think the committee just sticks with what works. There is no incentive to change the rotation unless something falls apart (like when Cleveland's site shut down). Although, the "market" has changed pretty dramatically over the past few years and I imagine attendance would be bananas wherever you put it.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by BobC

Absolutely correct! But figured being from the LA area, traffic was a big reason you didn't like driving.

Traffic is an annoyance to be sure but actually, I just do not like driving at all, so whenever I have to drive everywhere it is a hassle. Sometimes you do see the most interesting things, though, when you drive around LA:




My office is a few minutes from Disney, Warner Brothers and Universal. I was driving home one evening and saw that ahead of me in traffic. Must've been out for a spin from Universal.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Traffic is an annoyance to be sure but actually, I just do not like driving at all, so whenever I have to drive everywhere it is a hassle. Sometimes you do see the most interesting things, though, when you drive around LA:




My office is a few minutes from Disney, Warner Brothers and Universal. I was driving home one evening and saw that ahead of me in traffic. Must've been out for a spin from Universal.

That is cool Adam.

[frankbmd]

This topic is discussed annually on this forum and has never had an impact. Carry on.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

This topic is discussed annually on this forum and has never had an impact. Carry on.

Exactly it’s not going anywhere we all know, Chicago is getting it...NJ AC I think is going to be a afterthought soon. We could call it the National in the Midwest Chicago with Occasional Cleveland :-)