Check out this brutal Koufax signed 3 x 5 on eBay!

[Scott Garner]

Check out this picture below of eBay auction # 280729229207.

I sent the eBay seller a message letting him know what he was selling and here was his response back:

"Thanks for your opinion. I bought it off of eBay after a PSA/DNA quick opinion, which noted it as likely genuine. The only discrepancy is the "k", which appears he was just rushed when he signed it. My autographs are not only subjected to quick opinion, but also message boards with tons of years of combined experience (sports collectors.net)


- s_manzari"

What are your opinions on this Koufax signature? IMHO it's horrible and not even close.

[Hot Springs Bathers]

Scott- Speaking of Koufax and for that matter Hank Aaron. Do they have an official signing option set up like Musial or Berra?

I think I have asked this before but did not get a response. I wouldn't mind paying a little extra to get the real McCoy. Do any other HOFers have a agency set up to order from?

[mr2686]

The ONLY decrepancy is the K? This looks pretty bad to me.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by Hot Springs Bathers

Scott- Speaking of Koufax and for that matter Hank Aaron. Do they have an official signing option set up like Musial or Berra?

I think I have asked this before but did not get a response. I wouldn't mind paying a little extra to get the real McCoy. Do any other HOFers have a agency set up to order from?

Mike,
Koufax definately does not offer this option, and I don't believe Aaron does either.

Koufax is tied to some kind of exclusive deal with Steiner presently. He rarely does signing of any type, but Steiner within the last 2-3 years did allow fans the opportunity to get a limited number of items signed by Koufax at a private signing for $600 + per item, depending on what it was. At $600, I personally am out, FWIW.... Too bad!

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by mr2686

The ONLY decrepancy is the K? This looks pretty bad to me.

Ugly, ugly, ugly!!

[GrayGhost]

the F and X look decent, rest of it awful. STAY AWAY!!!

[Lordstan]

Scott,
I am also a member ay SportsCollertors.net. It is a website devoted primarily to autographs with a specific emphasis on TTM experiences, sharing addresses, etc.
It does have many experienced and knowledgable collectors, some of whom are respected members here as well. There is no way in hell that would ever get validated as good on that website.
I did a search of the board posts there and did not find a single post asking for an opinion on this Koufax. I went back about 8mo or so.
If you're feeling argumentative, feel free to call him out on the above fact and see what he says.
Best,
Mark

[Lordstan]

Update!

Just to be complete, I happen to find the guys profile on SCN and reviewed his posts. I just found a thread on SCN where he sold a Koufax signed 3x5, but the picture is gone. I don't know if it's the same one or not.
He had a bunch of Different things for sale. A couple of them I thought were a little off, but most of his stuff seemed pretty good.

FYI

[mmcgruff]

Hey guys, I found this all interesting because I have a book by Koufax signed by him on Ebay. I dont know anything about autographs and hoped you can shed some light on this for me. I bought it on a hunch at an estate sale for 3 dollars. The dustjacket is terrible looking with tears on it. I was told by a friend of mine that the signature looked good to him and with the letter K being not attached was his way of signing much later in his days. Here is my book:


http://www.ebay.com/itm/140596573406...84.m1555.l2649



Any thoughts are much appreciated!

[Brendan]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

Update!

Just to be complete, I happen to find the guys profile on SCN and reviewed his posts. I just found a thread on SCN where he sold a Koufax signed 3x5, but the picture is gone. I don't know if it's the same one or not.
He had a bunch of Different things for sale. A couple of them I thought were a little off, but most of his stuff seemed pretty good.

FYI

It's very possible this is a a TTM autograph and was simply signed by someone else. But then you hear he bought it on eBay.....if PSA/DNA quick opinion said this was authentic, I'll chop my arm off.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by mmcgruff

Hey guys, I found this all interesting because I have a book by Koufax signed by him on Ebay. I dont know anything about autographs and hoped you can shed some light on this for me. I bought it on a hunch at an estate sale for 3 dollars. The dustjacket is terrible looking with tears on it. I was told by a friend of mine that the signature looked good to him and with the letter K being not attached was his way of signing much later in his days. Here is my book:


http://www.ebay.com/itm/140596573406...84.m1555.l2649



Any thoughts are much appreciated!

Rick, below is a statement taken from your Ebay item description and it reads:

Compare the autograph with the reproduction of the man's signature on the back of the dust jacket. It's the real McCoy, for sure!

I can't count the number of forgeries I've observed where the forger tried to emulate the reproduction signature on the item they are forging. You cannot judge an autograph in that manner.

And above you wrote "I don't know anything about autographs." If you admit you don't know autographs, then how can you write in your item description "It's the real McCoy for sure!"

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

Rick, below is a statement taken from your Ebay item description and it reads:

Compare the autograph with the reproduction of the man's signature on the back of the dust jacket. It's the real McCoy, for sure!

I can't count the number of forgeries I've observed where the forger tried to emulate the reproduction signature on the item they are forging. You cannot judge an autograph in that manner.

And above you wrote "I don't know anything about autographs." If you admit you don't know autographs, then how can you write in your item description "It's the real McCoy for sure!"

In any case, the signature on the book is definately NOT the real McCoy...

[GrayGhost]

This is the Real McCoy:

[mmcgruff]

Sorry, forgot that was in the description. Anyway so it's not real and Im out 3 bucks.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by mmcgruff

Sorry, forgot that was in the description. Anyway so it's not real and Im out 3 bucks.

Rick, I assume you will be canceling your Koufax auction.

[mmcgruff]

Yes I will do that right away. Thanks for the message.
It is a fake, right?

[mmcgruff]

Can you tell me what indicates what makes it not real please? It looks like the same to me from what is on the dust jacket.
Thanks......

[Hot Springs Bathers]

Scott- Thanks for the Koufax info, I guess I will just miss out on him. I don't begrudge anybody their dollars but that is out of my budget. Wow?

In Sandy's defense, didn't he lose just about everything in the Madoff scheme or am I just dreaming this?

[ss]

Originally Posted by mmcgruff

Can you tell me what indicates what makes it not real please? It looks like the same to me from what is on the dust jacket.
Thanks......

Both are bad!

[theshleps]

I had seen his post the other day and a few of the autographs posted looked suspicious to me including the Koufax. I don't think he is dishonest. Just got some bad stuff. The Koufax book signature looks pretty bad.
Also Lrdstan- you have a great 34 Goudey collection. Any dupes tro trade or sell?

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by Hot Springs Bathers

Scott- Thanks for the Koufax info, I guess I will just miss out on him. I don't begrudge anybody their dollars but that is out of my budget. Wow?

In Sandy's defense, didn't he lose just about everything in the Madoff scheme or am I just dreaming this?

Mike,
I hope that he wasn't amongst those that got scammed by Madoff, but I'm not sure. My pleasure for answering your questions.

[mr2686]

Koufax did invest with Madoff but not sure how much. For what it's worth, Koufax is a pretty savvy business man. Back in the day he was getting paid in cash for his appearances while others were taking checks and having an IRS paper trail. I would find it hard to believe he would have all his eggs in one basket.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_164283.html

[Lordstan]

Here are the seller's other items.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/Autographs-O...=p3911.c0.m282

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

Here are the seller's other items.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/Autographs-O...=p3911.c0.m282

Other sigs look good....

[ss]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

Other sigs look good....

The Al Simmons, Pie Traynor, and Casey Stengel are no good IMO. Guessing the trend would continue if I kept looking down his list.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by ss

The Al Simmons, Pie Traynor, and Casey Stengel are no good IMO. Guessing the trend would continue if I kept looking down his list.

I quickly glanced at these last night before I went to bed.
Lyons, Rick Ferrell, Winfield and Catfish all appear real to me. These are all players that I have gotten in person and I see no problems with them, per se.

I'll take your word on Simmons, Traynor, Stengel. A mixture of good and bad then? What about players like Al Lopez, etc.?

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by mmcgruff

Yes I will do that right away. Thanks for the message.
It is a fake, right?

I see you haven't taken down your Koufax auction yet? With all of the questions and doubts about it, why do you still have it listed on Ebay?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/140596573406...84.m1555.l2649

Gam-9.jpg

[thetruthisoutthere]

Looks like Ebay removed it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mmcgruff
Can you tell me what indicates what makes it not real please? It looks like the same to me from what is on the dust jacket.
Thanks......

Originally Posted by ss

Both are bad!

The pre-printed facsimile auto on the dust jacket is bad?

I'm not sure I personally would have pulled this auction just based on the comments I've read in this thread. 3 people said it was "bad", but without providing any explanations or personal credentials; 1 of those even said the actual pre-printed dustjacket signature was bad; 2 of the parties disagreed later downthread about the authenticity of various other signatures. Not exactly a consensus, IMO.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by Karl Mattson

Quote:
Originally Posted by mmcgruff
Can you tell me what indicates what makes it not real please? It looks like the same to me from what is on the dust jacket.
Thanks......




The pre-printed facsimile auto on the dust jacket is bad?

I'm not sure I personally would have pulled this auction just based on the comments I've read in this thread. 3 people said it was "bad", but without providing any explanations or personal credentials; 1 of those even said the actual pre-printed dustjacket signature was bad; 2 of the parties disagreed later downthread about the authenticity of various other signatures. Not exactly a consensus, IMO.

Hi Karl,

You ask a fair question. As with many players, Sandy Koufax's signature has definately changed through the years. I would like to give you a quick look at the evolution of Sandy Koufax's signature from 1956-1972 just to illustrate the point.

The first image is a dated GPC (government postcard) from 1956.
The next three are authentic signed 3 x 5 index cards of Sandy (from top to bottom in the scan) of Sandy's autograph in the early 1960's, mid 1960's (1964-1966) and 1971-1972 respectively.

Once you have looked at these authentic signatures, please compare these to the book in question. Do you still have any uncertainty that both the facsimile signature and autograph in the book both display a bad Koufax signature?

One point to remember is that the 1st edition of the book pictured here, entitled "Koufax" by author Ed Linn, was published in 1966. A real Koufax autograph on this book would look like the mid 1960's autograph that I showed you or later. Nothing like what was shown in the auction screen shot photos the thetruthisoutthere showed us earlier.

BTW, Koufax's signature has evolved even more since the early 70's. Nowdays his signature barely shows any top portion of the "S" and the two pen strokes that Koufax uses to sign the "K" almost look like the parallel lines have become one. Much different than anything that I showed you here...

I hope this helps. Good collecting!

[thetruthisoutthere]

Well written, Scott.

My problem wasn't whether or not his (MMCGRUFF) Koufax was a forgery or genuine, or if it was removed from Ebay or not. My issue is why Mr. Mmcgruff didn't pull his Koufax auction after everyone questioned the authenticity of it.

Remember, he (MMCGRUFF) was the one who posted his Koufax for advice.

[thecatspajamas]

That seems to be a trend lately: people asking for advice and then completely disregarding it when advice is offered. That certainly isn't the case with everyone asking advice, but there have been a number of late.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

Hi Karl,

You ask a fair question. As with many players, Sandy Koufax's signature has definately changed through the years. I would like to give you a quick look at the evolution of Sandy Koufax's signature from 1956-1972 just to illustrate the point.

The first image is a dated GPC (government postcard) from 1956.
The next three are authentic signed 3 x 5 index cards of Sandy (from top to bottom in the scan) of Sandy's autograph in the early 1960's, mid 1960's (1964-1966) and 1971-1972 respectively.

Once you have looked at these authentic signatures, please compare these to the book in question. Do you still have any uncertainty that both the facsimile signature and autograph in the book both display a bad Koufax signature?

One point to remember is that the 1st edition of the book pictured here, entitled "Koufax" by author Ed Linn, was published in 1966. A real Koufax autograph on this book would look like the mid 1960's autograph that I showed you or later. Nothing like what was shown in the auction screen shot photos the thetruthisoutthere showed us earlier.

BTW, Koufax's signature has evolved even more since the early 70's. Nowdays his signature barely shows any top portion of the "S" and the two pen strokes that Koufax uses to sign the "K" almost look like the parallel lines have become one. Much different than anything that I showed you here...

I hope this helps. Good collecting!

Fantastic signature study information on Koufax. Thanks much!

[mmcgruff]

I changed the words in the description that I believe the autograph was real but also explained that I would give the buyer 30 days for having it examined or I will give a full refund. Found out today that Ebay removed the listing due to some questions on it not being authentic.
I asked earlier about what makes it not real. Could somebody explain that to me but never got an answer on that.

[mmcgruff]

Hey Chris,

I did not pull it because there were several watchers on it and that I had guaranteed it for 30 days.
Rick

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by mmcgruff

Hey Chris,

I did not pull it because there were several watchers on it and that I had guaranteed it for 30 days.
Rick

Well, Rick, it's always been my feeling that sellers should have and take the responsibility of making sure an autograph is authentic (I know, it isn't an exact science).

A seller, in my opinion, should perform that task, and not the buyer.

Rick, if someone had won your auction and if it was rejected by PSA or JSA, would you have also refunded their authentication fees?

Over the years, I have literally asked hundreds of sellers "If your autograph fails authentication, will you also refund my authentication fees?" Only 5% replied that they would.

I know my comment here can possibly open a can of worms, but it's how I feel about a situation like this.

[mmcgruff]

I just read your comment Karl. I appreciate your input on this. The name on the dust cover looks the same to me on the book too.
Rick

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by mmcgruff

I just read your comment Karl. I appreciate your input on this. The name on the dust cover looks the same to me on the book too.
Rick

Geez Rick,

Did none of the info that I presented make any sense to you?
I'm speechless right now.....

[ss]

Then believe it's real, but it's a horrible forgery.

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by mr2686

For what it's worth, Koufax is a pretty savvy business man. Back in the day he was getting paid in cash for his appearances while others were taking checks and having an IRS paper trail.[/url]

What you are insinuating does not make him savvy, it makes him a tax criminal. Stealing from US taxpayers is similar to Madoff stealing from his associates. On a much smaller scale, of course.

[mmcgruff]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

Geez Rick,

Did none of the info that I presented make any sense to you?
I'm speechless right now.....

I read your message Scott, just didnt get to you until now. Good information, I appreciate it.
Rick

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

Fantastic signature study information on Koufax. Thanks much!

Chris, Chuck and Rick,

Thanks! No problem, my pleasure. I'm glad that you thought this was helpful given all the questions about specifics.

Best,
Scott

[rlevy]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

Hi Karl,

You ask a fair question. As with many players, Sandy Koufax's signature has definately changed through the years. I would like to give you a quick look at the evolution of Sandy Koufax's signature from 1956-1972 just to illustrate the point.

The first image is a dated GPC (government postcard) from 1956.
The next three are authentic signed 3 x 5 index cards of Sandy (from top to bottom in the scan) of Sandy's autograph in the early 1960's, mid 1960's (1964-1966) and 1971-1972 respectively.

Once you have looked at these authentic signatures, please compare these to the book in question. Do you still have any uncertainty that both the facsimile signature and autograph in the book both display a bad Koufax signature?

One point to remember is that the 1st edition of the book pictured here, entitled "Koufax" by author Ed Linn, was published in 1966. A real Koufax autograph on this book would look like the mid 1960's autograph that I showed you or later. Nothing like what was shown in the auction screen shot photos the thetruthisoutthere showed us earlier.

BTW, Koufax's signature has evolved even more since the early 70's. Nowdays his signature barely shows any top portion of the "S" and the two pen strokes that Koufax uses to sign the "K" almost look like the parallel lines have become one. Much different than anything that I showed you here...

I hope this helps. Good collecting!

Scott,
I also collect Koufax items, and have many of his signatures organized by date to help me authenticate items of his. I agree with your assessment of the signature in the book, and tour samples for 1956, early 60's, and early 70's, but I think your signed index card for mid-60's isn't correct. I don't believe he started using an "S" like on your index card until much later (80's or 90's), but stopped using the "K" like on your card in around 1964-65. I also think the slant and letter formation isn't consistent with his signature back then.
Pictured below is his signature from Dec. 1966 when he signed with NBC to do color commentary and other work for the network, and your index card from the same time period.

Rick
page 15 cropped.jpg

Koufax%20signature%20evolution%201960's-1970's cropped.jpg