A Trend? Or is This the Way the Board has Become?

[Archive]

Posted By: JakeBushi

"Claims of knowledgeable lurkers are about as valid as those of Bigfoot sightings until proven otherwise."
================================================== =========================

Any good reason why?

[Archive]

Posted By: jay behrens

Do I really have to explain it? It seems pretty obvious, but to save you having to make a another response...

It same as the claims that I and others have attacked newbies without provocation and scare people away. Lots of anecdotal evidence but not one piece of solid evidence to back it up. As long as lurkers remain quiet and do not share this supposed knowledge, then they are no more knowledgeable than new born baby until proven otherwise.

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

[Archive]

Posted By: JakeBushi

Oh, OK. So because people do not post on this board, they must not be knowledgeable. Nice.

[Archive]

Posted By: JakeBushi

And by the way, who exactly has said that you have "attacked" new posters?

[Archive]

Posted By: Joann

Jake,

It's not that there are not knowledgeable lurkers out there, it's that there is no way to know who, how many, what kind of knowledge, etc, they have. When it comes to participants, these are all known and concrete things.

The "knowledgeable lurkers" have grown to kind of a myth in that, despite being mentioned regularly, there is nothing known and only rumors and purported sightings - kind of like Bigfoot I guess. (hee - I'm kind of having fun with this post in the morning.)

How can we reasonably compare the input and value of the known experts who have been here for years with the vague notion that there are some people with some undefined exptertise who may or may not read, who may or may not decide to contribute, and only after something - not sure what - happens on the board to make newbies welcome - well not sure if that's the case either?

So it's not that anyone thinks they aren't there. Not at all. It's that it's hard to quantify their potential contribution because we don't know anything about them as individuals or a group.

And ha! on you guys with the girls comments. lol. And David - what a great statue. I still don't know what LH was talking about, and am trying to figure out if his comment about driving people off was directed in part at me. I had contributed to the thread a few times. Lee's right - it would be good to know who exactly he meant, or whether it meant anyone in particular.

Joann

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

It's the damn advertising that has really killed this board. And the cockfighting. The advertising and the cockfighting!

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

I totally agree that a lurker adds no knowledge to the board, for the most part. Two things I would point out though. If you have been posting on this board long enough you have inevitbaly gotten emails from lurkers. Not too long ago we were talking about a super rare card in high grade. I forget what it was now but I got an email/scan of a card that the lurker owned and he said I could post it on the board to help with the thread. He is one of the top Registry guys and I hear he is a darn nice person (as most are). I have gotten many, many (no doubt partly because I am moderator and also post almost as much as anyone) other emails from lurkers with information helping out with topics we are debating. As far as "knowing" how many lurkers there are, and their identity, I know at the Net54 dinner there was one of the most noted SGC graded card collectors there and he never posts....but reads the board every day. I know because I asked him. I know of dozens of lurkers myself and many of them are very knowledgable and nice......they just don't care to join in the fray. Also, my guess is that almost all vintage dealers that are on the net at least lurk here....why not? All of that being said I still agree it is not quantifiable what lurkers add to the forum but it's much more than "nothing"....regards

ps...as far as Larryhaven is concerned he can go or stay (I doubt he is Larry F, and I don't know who he is)...but he has to be well known to be in controversial threads or put his full name on the post....just like everyone else...

[Archive]

Posted By: Joann

Exactly right Leon. Well put. Everyone has a sense of them being out there, both from receiving emails directly or hearing second-hand about someone meeting at National, etc. But overall they are kind of mythical in that they are undefinable - there simply isn't any info.

Some comments upthread seemed to suggest that, if the nature of things were to change such that some current knowledge left, the void would be filled by others that currently lurk.

But, as you say, there is no way to know what that participation would be even if we know of a few individuals that do not currently participate. I look at it as 'better the devil you know'. We know what's here now, but can only guess at the potential contribution of those that currently choose not to post.

I think it would be interesting to start a thread just for lurkers to come in one time and say why they don't post. Who knows? Could be interesting. Could be lack of time, don't feel like it, too intimidating, or just that they want to retain privacy. If regulars were asked to try to avoid rebuttals and comments - sort of a back-off agreement - we might get some interesting and helpful responses.

J

[Archive]

Posted By: Alan

I met a few lurkers at the National (who were registry guys) & they could not have been nicer. They respected me, even though I was looking for nothing higher than PSA-1.

[Archive]

Posted By: Joann

I should make it clear here that I really don't have anything against lurking at all. I tend to stay around the edges of a lot of things too, and don't want my theoretical discussion of direction of board to be interpreted as a stance on lurking in general.

One of my very favorite items in my collection came to me because a lurker emailed me about it, knowing my interests from reading this board. In the email he did mention that he is not wild about the term 'lurker', and I've heard that from others too.

So, apologies to DE, who emailed me with a proposal to sell one of his cards. I had forgotten about the objection to the word lurker, and will try to use another word. Reader. Watcher. Something.

Joann

[Archive]

Posted By: Jason Duncan

I have been here a long time. I am more a lurker than a poster. I read almost everyday, but I do not post much. I do think in the past there are alot of OT threads that got shut down that would not be now. I do not know why, other than maybe we are going through a growing phase and Leon possibly does not have time to handle every thread. I have been on here for several years and I have obtained some knowledge through the board. However, I feel the last couple of years I have done alot less reading and more looking at the B/S/T part because I have to filter through about 90% of the OT stuff I dont care for. I really dont mind as long as everyone is treated fairly. I really have no complaint nor do I have a solution. I still feel people like Sloate, TedZ, Jim, and a few others bring up great topics and offer free knowledge on things they research. As far as discussing other items I could care less, but if you have a problem with it just go to CU or some other forum. I actually think the banners were a good idea. However, if the revenue compromises the orginal rules of OT topics for the sake of numbers then that isnt right either. I see no major problems with the way the borad is run now. If more OT topics are allowed in then there will be a problem. Of course, then the problem could possibly cause alot of good, knowledgable people to either leave or post alot less often. I can see some members' frustration, but you are always going to have complainers and whiners and they usually are the same 1-2% of the group. Sometimes you just have to let the "dogs bark". While I agree some threads shouldnt be kept going, the board seems just fine to me and I think you will have those OT from time to time that we should maybe discuss. I think Leon keeps a good medium and what is allowed for now. Just my 2 cents.


Jason

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

As far as lurkers go- and a nicer term for them might be "perusers"- posting on a chatboard is not everybody's cup of tea. I recall when I first started posting I realized that I had to stay with the thread because someone might ask me a question some time later that required an answer. So it's actually a bit of work to keep on top of things, and not everyone has the time or desire.

Also, many collectors wish to maintain their privacy, and that goes beyond posting with an anonymous log in. Many don't even want to discuss what they have in their collections.

[Archive]

Posted By: George

I am new to the board and have posted only a few times. My only background is in T206 cards and even with that, I think I have limited knowledge compared to some of the other experts here. I think overtime however I'll be able to provide some good insight and look forward to seeing postings where I can provide my opinions/feedback. Thanks.

George

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

So I was just on the phone with Barry discussing this thread a little bit. I reiterated my thought that it is really a bunch of "to do" about nothing. Don't get me wrong as I think it's a worthwhile topic to be discussed...I just don't see the main thrust of this thread as being a big issue. On this front page we counted 1-2 off topics that were far off ie.. not about baseball. We counted 1-2 about current baseball which is really only slightly off topic. I just don't see the point about "all of these off topics"....unless they are imaginary? I will step in if there are too many going on, as I often do. As far as knowledge on the board....Look down the list of folks starting threads and the folks participating in them. I am very proud of Net54 the way it is today and the folks participating. Has it changed somewhat? Sure it has, but so has the hobby, and so have many folks that used to be in it, who have gotten out for whatever reason they had........Thanks to everyone for STILL making this a great place to talk about Pre-War Baseball cards. One last thing about advertisers....There is no one, or collective set, of advertisers that will ever sway my/our decisions on how to run the board...I can safely promise that. Historically that is a fact too. I don't need the money it brings in but it's still nice to have for a card budget... .....best regards

[Archive]

Posted By: E, Daniel

I guess everyone who is now considered a long time poster and knowledgable hobbyist just arrived on this board, on the year of inception, and has been here ever since.
None ever started as lurkers, and then became regulars, providing the 90% of hobby knowledge.

Again this just sounds so puffed up, to assume that those who have been here have all the knowledge, that others who don't participate are mere myths....what a bunch of garbage.

All this is is protecting your own patch and dismissing everyone else. If Ted only joined the board in 05', and perhaps lurked prevously, was he a myth. Were you Joanne? Near everyone here on the board arrived in dribs and drabs, were they myths before they became regular posters?

I think its amazing people can get so caught up in their own worth they can actually disregard the world outside themselves.



Daniel

[Archive]

Posted By: Marc Del Percio

I have been avidly collecting baseball cards since I was about two years old and it remains a passion today. I spend a lot of time researching and studying the hobby and the game itself. So I like to think that I have a pretty solid base of knowledge. I read the board every day but rarely post.

In two years on the board, I have started two unquestionably on-topic threads about the T205 and T207 sets which are my favorites. I believe they got a total of 4-5 responses. Which is fine...everybody posts about whatever they are inspired to post about. There are a lot of excellent topical threads that get little or no attention and a few of what many would consider off-topic threads that get 200 replies. Honestly I enjoy reading both of them. And I would be willing to wager that many who bemoan the abundance of such threads enjoy reading and/or contributing to them as well.

I personally do not believe that posts about baseball, modern or otherwise, are much off-topic. The game is obviously the reason for the existence of the cards so I think it is really splitting hairs to separate the two. In fact, it is relatively rare that I see ANY post I would consider completely off-topic. I realize of course that this is a forum to discuss vintage baseball cards but I believe that discussions about investing and market conditions, grading companies, general hobby trends, and baseball itself are all applicable to this hobby.

For what it's worth, I think that Leon does an excellent job with the forum. I do not envy him in the least. I couldn't care less about advertising dollars. In fact, I hope he makes a fortune. He helps to provide a great resource for collectors.

[Archive]

Posted By: Joann

Well geez Daniel. I guess I picked the wrong word and accidentally got you all ruffled up. Of course I did not mean mythical in the sense of being literally non-existent. I meant mythical in the sense of being elusive, difficult to pin down, and known more by anecdotal comments than any actual information.

Certainly I don't think anyone here, at any point in the thread, was suggesting that there are literally no watchers with any valuable knowledge. I mean ... really ... is there any way to interpret any comment anywhere as saying that there is no knowledge except what is already here? Really?

As best I can tell, the comments were that it is difficult to define and predict the extent of the knowledge and potential contribution that we are all missing.

In the future I will take great pains to make sure I pick the exact right technical word so as to avoid such confusion.

The discussion is about finding the right balance between more generic topics that are accessible to more people, and more hardcore technical topics that will assure the participation of those with great knowledge.

That's a valid topic for discussion every once in awhile, has been in the past and likely will be in the future. I think the board will always have conversations that attempt to define equilibrium and productive content and conduct. It's actually probably a pretty healthy exercise.

But it's hard to have this kind of conversation without some people feeling like it attempts to exclude them, or will make the board less relevant to them, or whatever. It seems to me like it has been conducted in this thread with a good deal of thought and presentation of different viewpoints.

Joann

[Archive]

Posted By: Cobby33

J-
I think we knew what you meant

[Archive]

Posted By: Joseph

After almost a year of discovering and becoming an active contributor to this board, I have stopped posting, mainly because of threads such as this.

I still peruse the classifieds, though.

[Archive]

Posted By: jay behrens

Jake, just ask E Daniel, Asphaltman and others that hate me. They will tell you that I randomly attack newbie posters and scare off people from this board because of my bluntness and style.

It's been a long standing myth around here that I do this, yet neither of these clowns has ever showed me a single post of mine where I've attacked a new poster for something baseball card related, but they will continue to perpetuate the myth as long as they think it makes them look good.

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Marc- even though your questions about T205 and T207 only received 4-5 responses, did you feel that they were sufficiently answered?

Joseph- I always felt you were a good poster. Why would a thread such as this one chase you away? Whether you agree or disagree with the points being made, I think the discussion so far has been civil and intelligent.

[Archive]

Posted By: E, Daniel

Here are a couple of quotes in this thread that I think show clearly some posters believe all/most knowledge about vintage cards either resides here currently on the board, or has left with the non-participation of a couple hobbyists.


"Claims of knowledgeable lurkers are about as valid as those of Bigfoot sightings until proven otherwise"

"So would it be more harmful to this board to lose 90% of the people that know more than me, or 90% of the people that know the same as me or less? I think that pretty much says it all"


While I would absolutely prefer ALL hobbyists with knowledge to hang around, for me this is much like the 'most of the major collections are already known' idea because of the passion and ego of many on this board. Personally, I think this is one drop in the vintage collecting hobby. While a huge amount of knowledge resides here, similarly I think its only ego to presume there is not a far greater percentage of hobby knowlege residing elsewhere. And quotes like the first are hardly likely to impress on any of those people who come for the first time to read this board's thoughts, indeed I can only imagine they would roll over laughing to hear such arrogance. The second, yours, suggests that if people are lost from this community they will only be replaced by others that know as much or less than you do. Again, I just don't believe that's true. Maybe it would take time for new knowledgable hobbyists to come by and stick, but I have no doubt they would. The proof is this very board, which is an amalgam of people who passed by with knowledge and stuck.


Daniel

[Archive]

Posted By: Marc Del Percio

Barry - Rather than specific questions, I was more interested in ideas/discussion on series distribution and how some of the more unusual variations occurred. Perhaps not many felt that they had a substantive opinion or knowledge on those topics (you were one of the few that did reply...thanks ) I am always a bit surprised at relatively how little discussion the T205 set gets as I feel it has at least as many mysteries and interesting discussion points as T206 and other often studied sets.

So to answer your question...no, not really. I wasn't looking for a 100 post thread or anything like that but I was hoping to at least get some new perspectives as I know that the T205 set is pretty widely collected and I assumed that other fans of this set were likely pondering some of the same things I was.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

I guess some threads don't get the attention they should.

I think that despite board protestation there is always some attraction to those "train wreck" threads, and I suppose many of the posters around here are still fascinated by some of the sensationalism in the hobby. No question a potential scandal gets more posts than an arcane question about a card variation. Not much you can do about that.

[Archive]

Posted By: Alan

It's the reason people tune in to watch shows like Access Hollywood, Entertainment Tonight, TMZ show, etc,...

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

Guys,

Here's what I don't understand, from the Mission Statement to the self-policing, people are encouraged to post threads on vintage cards. Why aren't people posting about cards? Where else can they go to get this Board's expertise?

Peter C.

[Archive]

Posted By: Dan Bretta

This board hasn't changed a bit since I started reading it 3+ years ago...there have been some knowledgeable people who have left and we have gained others. OT threads will still garner more posts than the on topic stuff and that is true of nearly every internet venue out there. Human nature I would call it...once people become familiar with one another they like to chat about "other stuff" and IMO that's okay. This constant bickering about too much off topic posting could be immediately remedied if Leon would simply add a forum for all off topic discussion...most internet boards have one.

I think one reason that a lot of on topic questions go unanswered is because the people collecting a set realize that oftentimes when a discussion is brought up it raises awareness of that set and could really affect prices. I can't tell you how many of my N172 questions have gone unanswered...the OJ collectors really are tight lipped.

I wish more lurkers would chime in on the board...I know for a fact that they exist in good numbers because I get emails all the time from them...have even made some good friendships with lurkers.

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

I agree with most of your sentiments. The reason I don't make a place to have "only" off topic posts is that, quite honestly, I think a few off topics are healthy for the board. They really need to be done in moderation though (I guess that's my job) or we will only have a water fountain chatboard effect where anything and everything is spoken about, without any real focus. I prefer a happy median.....Also, please remember that no matter what decision I make I will almost always make someone unhappy. I try to make as few as possible unhappy but it will never be 0. I have learned to live with that.....

[Archive]

Posted By: Dan Bretta

By the way, I just went back all the way to 2003 - easy to do just go to page 273

There are by my count 4 OT posts on the page with others bordering on OT. 3 of them started by Jay B.

molitor and eckersly. opinions?

HOF ballot

Velvetta Cheese boxes

Betting on games (lomg)

I will reiterate that there have been no major changes in regards to OT post to this board- and one could probably argue that there is a larger base of knowledge displayed on this board today than there was 3-4 years ago. It's easy to just page back and take a look.

[Archive]

Posted By: Matt

Dan - please don't pollute our speculative thread with facts!

[Archive]

Posted By: Dan Bretta

Hey, check out the intricate question asked by James Walker about Domino Discs...he got two whole responses. Neither of which wholly answered his questions.

Everyone romanticizes the good ol' days and I suppose folks like us who collect Ty Cobb cards do the most romanticizing.

This board is better today than it has ever been. Period.

[Archive]

Posted By: Randy Trierweiler

Good post Dan, nothing like facts to ruin some speculation and opinion.

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

you are an instigator !!! BTW, why didn't we get to talk more at the National? Next year, if you make it, we need to hang out some.....shoot the poop so to speak....

Dan- I agree with you.....not about everything, but about this

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

"I suppose folks like us who collect Ty Cobb cards do the most romanticizing."

Dan, very insightful - and true.

[Archive]

Posted By: Randy Trierweiler

Hey Leon, I did go back to your table a couple of times, but missed you. I will be in Chicago next year for sure. We will definetly get together. Randy

[Archive]

Posted By: chris bland

Some people like the off-topic stuff, some find it annoying. Personally, I find it annoying and a hinderance to what the board's purported goals are.

Having been around since the full count days, it seems like more people respond to World Series Heroes and Steroid threads (even if it is to just bitch about the thread creators) than posts about cards.

I dont think there are any more off topic threads than before, but there are a lot more posts in those threads. Maybe that is just a result of more people seeing this board, I donno - but card threads get bumped down the ladder by 100 post off topic threads, and quickly disappear from the front page. That, to me, is the discouraging thing.

[Archive]

Posted By: Al Simeone

Leon,
It must have been Karma. I was just going to email you to put a lock on certain post a BOOM there it is. WELL DONE! and about time. We all tried to tell him in a nice way , and also a bad way but he wouldnt take a hint! All I can say is THANKYOU And In sure Im speaking for more than just me!! And there is at least one more that needs a LOCK!!!!

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

Chris,

If that was an accurate assessment of the Board's direction, why aren't you posting more about vintage cards?

Peter C.

[Archive]

Posted By: chris bland

Peter,

Because it is simply easier to email my questions to someone rather than hope that they see the thread before it gets buried under a "World Series Heros" or "Post your favorite alcoholic" thread.

[Archive]

Posted By: Al Simeone

Peter C.,
That is like the pot calling the kettle black! WHAT ABOUT YOU. 98% of your posts dont amount to a hill of beans! I hate to say it Peter alot of people become lurkers or non posters because of people like you!

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

I certainly understsand your, and many others', frustration on the subject of O/T.....It really is a fine line of pissing off board members while trying to keep focused.....I hope some of the off topic threads will die down and if they don't then I might lock a few more. IF I DO lock any please understand it's not a personal issue. Most of them really don't bother ME that much but I need to be mindful of the board's views. To help the cause I hope everyone that hates the OT stuff will post a good thread....If it gets responses then great...if not then you can at least say you tried....what more can ya' do?....best regards

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

Al,

I don't know about that, according to Leon and Dan B. that is simply not true. I'm simply pointing out that if pre-war vintage cards are so fascinating we would be getting inundated with new posts about cards.

Peter C.

[Archive]

Posted By: chris bland

Leon,

Thanks for the feedback. I think the "popularity" of off-topic posts is understandable as a board grows in size - more people can discuss mainstream topics than printing variations in the T206 set (myself included).

Like you said, you can't please everyone, and if the majority of the board likes the O/T stuff I will happily defer...

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

I just posted about a new card ten minutes ago.

[Archive]

Posted By: chris bland

"I'm simply pointing out that if pre-war vintage cards are so fascinating we would be getting inundated with new posts about cards."

I think you will find that an overwhelming majority of the posters here do find pre-war vintage cards quite fascinating.

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

Chris,

Then I encourage you to post.

Peter C.

[Archive]

Posted By: chris bland

Peter,

I also encourage you to post about vintage cards

[Archive]

Posted By: Al Simeone

Peter,
Well I guess the "establishment" may not be seeing it as much as you think for I now see a LOCK on one of your greatest educational posts!! To coin a phrase for you "looks like the establishment squashed you like a bug"

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

If I recall correctly, I think I was the one who taught Peter how to do the smiley face. I think I unleashed a monster!

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Barry, to make amends could you please explain to Peter C. what a non-sequitur is?