Proof of card existence?

[pbspelly]

Hello. It's great to find this forum, and so many people who know so much about old cards.

I collect cards and memorabilia of my grandfather and great grandfather, the Billy Sullivans (jr and sr respectively). I have a pretty large collection now, most of which was acquired on ebay or from card shows or dealers. I can post a link to photos of my collection on Webshots, if anyone's interested. Some of them, like an old Plow Boy and a George Hull postcard, are pretty special.

Some of the cards I'm still searching for, though, are cards for which I've never even seen one with my great grandfather or grandfather on one. So I'm starting to wonder if they really exist, or if, perhaps, it was actually a different Sullivan or if his listing was a mistake.

For example, supposedly, there is a Pinkerton cabinet (T5) with Billy Sullivan Sr. I've had an ebay search running for Pinkerton cabinets for nearly ten years, and while I've seen plenty of other Pinkertons (often for astronomical prices), I've never seen one with my great grandfather. Likewise, supposedly there is also a Sporting Life cabinet (W600) of William Sullivan. But again, I've never seen one, which makes me wonder if maybe it was Dennis Sullivan or something (I've seen other card lists mistakenly list Dennis as Billy).

Similarly, I've never come across a Foto Fun or George Burke Postage Stamp of my grandfather Billy Sullivan Jr., despite his inclusion in card checklists, and despite seeing plenty of other of these over the years.

So what I'm wondering is, has anyone ever seen a Pinkerton cabinet, Sporting Life cabinet, Foto Fun, or George Burke Postage Stamp, of a Billy Sullivan?

Also, if anyone has seen a Rose Postcard Billy Sullivan for sale, let me know. I've seen a picture of one of these cards (so I know they exist), but never seen one for sale.

Thanks

[terjung]

I can't speak to the T5 checklist, but Old Cardboard's website has the most complete gallery of W600s that I am aware of. There is no Sullivan shown in their gallery. W600s were issued as premiums and were only distributed as they were requested. So, many players may have been available (according to ads in the Sporting News publication), but if none were requested for a particular player, none would have been issued. That said, the "checklist" for the W600 set is very likely too be impossible due to this. Others here collect the set and may be able to speak more directly to whether a copy of Sullivan was ever released and survived, but it isn't surprising that a copy would be extremely difficult or impossible to find. It is due to their distribution method that more popular players survived in greater numbers.

Good luck!

http://www.oldcardboard.com/w/w600/w600gal2.asp

[glchen]

Didn't find the ones that you are looking for, but did see some other rare Billy Sullivan items that you may or many not have:

1903 E107 Breisch Williams Billy Sullivan: Legendary Link

Plow Boy Billy Sullivan: Legendary Link

Conlon Photo: Legendary Link

Banana Bat: REA Link

Pin Back: REA Link

[milkit1]

would love to see some photos

[pbspelly]

Originally Posted by glchen

Didn't find the ones that you are looking for, but did see some other rare Billy Sullivan items that you may or many not have:

1903 E107 Breisch Williams Billy Sullivan: Legendary Link

Plow Boy Billy Sullivan: Legendary Link

Conlon Photo: Legendary Link

Banana Bat: REA Link

Pin Back: REA Link

Thanks. I've got the Plow Boy and the pin back, but hadn't seen the Conlon photo before. That's a great shot. It's also neat because Billy Sr. invented that chest protector he was wearing.

I've seen the Breisch before but couldn't afford it. It's also exactly the same picture as that used in his T206 and Sporting Life cards. The banana bat is an interesting story. Evidently my grandmother gave it to one of her caretakers at a nursing home before she died. Billy Sr never actually used the bat (it was given to him by a fan) so I wasn't as interested in bidding on the auction (which got out of my price range, anyway).

Here are some links to my collection

http://sports.webshots.com/album/85559787VXHtIU


http://sports.webshots.com/album/85279665drMHpo



http://sports.webshots.com/album/85449344LGXCWH


http://sports.webshots.com/album/85242862PJLsSn



http://sports.webshots.com/album/85456621zIanpg

[pbspelly]

Originally Posted by terjung

I can't speak to the T5 checklist, but Old Cardboard's website has the most complete gallery of W600s that I am aware of. There is no Sullivan shown in their gallery. W600s were issued as premiums and were only distributed as they were requested. So, many players may have been available (according to ads in the Sporting News publication), but if none were requested for a particular player, none would have been issued. That said, the "checklist" for the W600 set is very likely too be impossible due to this. Others here collect the set and may be able to speak more directly to whether a copy of Sullivan was ever released and survived, but it isn't surprising that a copy would be extremely difficult or impossible to find. It is due to their distribution method that more popular players survived in greater numbers.

Good luck!http://www.oldcardboard.com/w/w600/w600gal2.asp[/URL]

This is very helpful, thanks

[Bicem]

I know the Legendary winner of this was at one time looking to sell it...

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/Lot...x?lotid=108500


Amazing collection by the way!

[matty39]

Not a card or a picture but a rather rare 1936-38 bf3 pennant.

[pbspelly]

love that pennant

[spec]

I can confirm the existence of the Foto-Fun of Billy Sullivan Jr. As is frequently the case with this kid-developed set, the caption is discernible only with a magnifying glass, but it reads: "Bill Sullivan, C St.L. Am"
Also in the attached scan is a photocopy of a Chickering cabinet photo I have of Billy Sr., who had the audacity to write on the back a letter to the collector who requested it, thus costing me the highest rating on the PSA or SCG registries. What was he thinking?

Originally Posted by pbspelly

Hello. It's great to find this forum, and so many people who know so much about old cards.

I collect cards and memorabilia of my grandfather and great grandfather, the Billy Sullivans (jr and sr respectively). I have a pretty large collection now, most of which was acquired on ebay or from card shows or dealers. I can post a link to photos of my collection on Webshots, if anyone's interested. Some of them, like an old Plow Boy and a George Hull postcard, are pretty special.

Some of the cards I'm still searching for, though, are cards for which I've never even seen one with my great grandfather on one. So I'm starting to wonder if they really exist, or if, perhaps, it was actually a different Sullivan or if his listing was a mistake.

For example, supposedly, there is a Pinkerton cabinet (T5) with Billy Sullivan Sr. I've had an ebay search running for Pinkerton cabinets for nearly ten years, and while I've seen plenty of other Pinkertons (often for astronomical prices), I've never seen one with my great grandfather. Likewise, supposedly there is also a Sporting Life cabinet (W600) of William Sullivan. But again, I've never seen one, which makes me wonder if maybe it was Dennis Sullivan or something (I've seen other card lists mistakenly list Dennis as Billy).

Similarly, I've never come across a Foto Fun or George Burke Postage Stamp of my grandfather Billy Sullivan Jr., despite his inclusion in card checklists, and despite seeing plenty of other of these over the years.

So what I'm wondering is, has anyone ever seen a Pinkerton cabinet, Sporting Life cabinet, Foto Fun, or George Burke Postage Stamp, of a Billy Sullivan?

Also, if anyone has seen a Rose Postcard Billy Sullivan for sale, let me know. I've seen a picture of one of these cards (so I know they exist), but never seen one for sale.

Thanks

[Tom S.]

Hi pbspelly,

You may want to check with ebay seller thecatspajamas99 for a George Burke stamp of Billy Sullivan Jr.

Even though he currently does not have any Burke stamps for sale, I seem to remember him having a Sullivan Jr. for sale a while ago when I purchased my Zeke Bonura from him for my White Sox type set.

He does have a Burke photo of your grandfather (made from the original negative) for sale in his eBay store though...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BILLY-SULLIV...item2eb807d048

Hope that this helps - and welcome to the forum!

[baseballart]

Not a card, butbthiught you might like to see this

[pbspelly]

Originally Posted by spec

I can confirm the existence of the Foto-Fun of Billy Sullivan Jr. As is frequently the case with this kid-developed set, the caption is discernible only with a magnifying glass, but it reads: "Bill Sullivan, C St.L. Am"
Also in the attached scan is a photocopy of a Chickering cabinet photo I have of Billy Sr., who had the audacity to write on the back a letter to the collector who requested it, thus costing me the highest rating on the PSA or SCG registries. What was he thinking?

Those are fantastic, thank you very much. I didn't even know about the Chickering cabinet. Let me know if you are ever interested in disposing of either of them. It's great to see that I'm not wasting my time looking for the Foto Fun. I'm pretty sure I have the photo that was used in the Foto Fun card.

I would think the writing on the back would actually increase its value. It would for me, anyway. Clearly he did not have the foresight to recognize that card collecting would become a lucrative field of endeavor. Otherwise I would not have had to acquire most of my collection via eBay. He also shouldn't have sold his catcher's chest protector patent to Spalding, but what are you going to do?

[pbspelly]

Originally Posted by Tom S.

Hi pbspelly,

You may want to check with ebay seller thecatspajamas99 for a George Burke stamp of Billy Sullivan Jr.

Even though he currently does not have any Burke stamps for sale, I seem to remember him having a Sullivan Jr. for sale a while ago when I purchased my Zeke Bonura from him for my White Sox type set.

He does have a Burke photo of your grandfather (made from the original negative) for sale in his eBay store though...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BILLY-SULLIV...item2eb807d048

Hope that this helps - and welcome to the forum!

Thanks a lot. I've bought from that catspajamas guy in the past. I sent the an email a while back and he didn't have a postage stamp of Billy, but it may be worth checking again.

[pbspelly]

Originally Posted by baseballart

Not a card, butbthiught you might like to see this

I'm not seeing anything. Do I need to adjust my settings?

[baseballart]

Nope--I just need to post the right link

[whitehse]

I love looking at these great pictures!! You can beat the old time photos to relive the old days when baseball was really all about the game!!

I actually live about 20 miles from Ft Atkinson, Wisconsin and knew Billy Sullivan came from there. I always wondered if there was any monument to him located at the Fort like there is for Fred Merkle who is from Nearby Watertown, Wisconsin. It would be cool to do a pre-war road trip to both Watertown and Ft Atkinson to retrace some steps of legendary ballplayers.

The other interesting thing (at least to me) is the ad you have scanned for the catalog showing the different catchers mitts that were for sale. The one abouve Billy Sullivan is Ray Berres who lived for decades directly southeast of Ft Atkinson in a town called Twin Lakes, Wisconsin. I had the opportunity to meet him many times as he was always out and about the town and willing to talk about his decades in the game. I am now curious to know if these two, old catchers ever met up somewhere along the line as they only lived a short drive away from each other. If they did, can you imagine the stories they told? That would have been fun to sit in on!!

I loved seeing your collection!!

[terjung]

Wow, Max! That's pretty incredible!

I'd be willing to bet that Chickering is pretty remarkable in person too!

[Leon]

Here's one too..

http://www.ebay.com/itm/320771307534...id%3Dm570.l273

[Chris Counts]

Here's a "card" of Billy Sullivan Jr. from an unidentified 1935 Reds set of 23 different players, coaches and manager. They are 3 1/2 inches wide and 4 1/2 inches tall. The back has a small stamp of his last name and a number (#4) Have you seen this one before?

[MVSNYC]

hi- just wanted to say, i think it's very cool that you are related to, not only one, but 2 former major leaguers! very very cool. i've been collecting T206 for 20 years, so i am very familiar with sullivan sr's portrait.

all the best!

[pbspelly]

Originally Posted by Chris Counts

Here's a "card" of Billy Sullivan Jr. from an unidentified 1935 Reds set of 23 different players, coaches and manager. They are 3 1/2 inches wide and 4 1/2 inches tall. The back has a small stamp of his last name and a number (#4) Have you seen this one before?

I haven't seen that before. That's great, thanks. I'll start looking for one of those. Let me know if you come across another one.

[pbspelly]

Originally Posted by MVSNYC

hi- just wanted to say, i think it's very cool that you are related to, not only one, but 2 former major leaguers! very very cool. i've been collecting T206 for 20 years, so i am very familiar with sullivan sr's portrait.

all the best!

Thanks. I think it's pretty cool too. Oddly enough, I'm one of the only members of my family that's really into it. One year, though, I collected different Billy Sr. cards that were not extremely rare (T206, T207, M116 Sporting Life, 1961 Fleer Baseball Greats, etc.) and sent them to all my cousins as Christmas presents. I actually set up the Webshots sites so that my family members could keep up, but I'm not sure how often they check in.