Opinions on Huggins and Scott auctions

[rainier2004]

Hello world, just fishing for opinions on the auctions, not auction house, and their respective prices. Ive participated in their last 4 auctions, won 3 total items and paid high for all 3. One auction I overpaid 10-15% knowing how difficult it would be for me to get the entire group and I was good w/ that. The other 2 lots i feel i pd what the market demand was.
BUT, and maybe im wrong, there have been several lots that seem to go quite a bit higher than on ebay when looking at pre-war in general with the buyer premium in there. Any thoughts? Am I wrong? Either way, Gehrig is still the greatest hitter of all-time!

[milkit1]

I picked up the six hal chase coupon cards for slightly less I think but most lots seemed to go above average. and no, ty cobb is the greatest hitter of all time

[ChiefBenderForever]

The hit King is Pete Rose

[ls7plus]

Hi, Steve. My feeling has been that day in and day out, e-bay still doesn't reach as many dedicated collectors as the major auction houses do with their catalogues; hence, while I know many here may disagree with me, e-bay still often reflects prices nearer wholesale than what I would define as full market value.

Oh, and by the way, Gehrig is right up there, but Williams is still the greatest hitter of all time, based on Bill James' calculations of runs produced per 27 outs as compared to the league average player's runs produced per 27 outs, which most easily can be reflected by division as a percentage. The last time I did the calculation, based on a 1999 text, Williams produced something like 250% of the league average runs created per 27 outs, while Gehrig was about 215%. Gehrig may actually have created more total runs, but a large factor there was that the conditions under which he played were more conducive to scoring runs. This method therefore allows for corrections due to differences in the conditions under which the game was played. For much of Gehrig's career, for example, the pitchers' best weapons had just been taken away from them with the elimination of the spit, scuffed, and just plain dirtied-up balls. At least one author has also written that both leagues eventually went to a different ball with higher seams (to allow better "purchase" by the pitchers, more spin and consequently a better-breaking curve ball) and a thicker cover to deaden the ball a bit, shortly after the entire National League hit .303 or so in 1931. The slider was also not widely used for most of Gehrig's career, while Williams saw it habitually. Plus, no night ball for Gehrig. Finally, gloves got significantly bigger in Williams' time, enabling the fielders to take away hits on balls they previously simply couldn't haul in. Which is why the entire American League in Gehrig's playing days often hit .280-plus, while in Teddy Ballgame's time, the league averages were much lower.

I'm sure we'll have some disagreements here, though.

May all your collecting voyages be smooth sailing!

Larry

PS: Sean, Cobb was also one of a very select few who produced more than 200% of the average league player in terms of runs created per 27 outs--certainly the greatest player in the game for the first 20 years of the 20th century!

[sycks22]

I was bidding on a '54 Wilson Franks Ted Williams PSA 5.5 and it went for $3750 before the juice. Last 5 went for $6k. Pretty good price on that card. It's tough to find so many wilson franks in a 7+.

[milkit1]

yes but keep in mind cobb batted against a dead ball that was most likely blackened with chew and dirt and most likely pitched to him using a now illegal style pitch. I know cobb played post rabbit ball but I'm confident had he started post rabbit ball he would have hit over 400 even more then he already did.

[bobbyw8469]

I was bidding on a '54 Wilson Franks Ted Williams PSA 5.5 and it went for $3750 before the juice. Last 5 went for $6k. Pretty good price on that card. It's tough to find so many wilson franks in a 7+.

True....last sale for the '5' was over $6,000. It was also 4 years ago! The market for Wilson Franks is actually softening up big time. That card in a '4' sold in Huggins and Scott for $4,600 in 2008. Same card sold for $3,000 in 2010. They are actually falling knives. Do you want to catch one on the way down?

[ls7plus]

The last time I checked the PSA pop report on the '54 Wilson Franks Williams there were a total of around 112 graded by PSA alone (although only 30-some in ExMt or better). While I'm sure that the SGC pop would be much smaller (I don't have access), that's still enough that they are available if you really want one in mid-grade, and if you miss one, it won't be too long before another comes along. The same softening has happened with the similarly scarce '52 Redman Williams (120-some graded, with tab attached, last PSA pop report check). In what is undeniably a somewhat tough market economically, these types of items feel it much more than something like the T210 Joe Jackson in VG+, which went for $200,000 in the last REA auction (with a PSA pop of 8, as I recall). With regard to the latter, it might be quite some time before you see another, and the sheer number of people that want one and have the means to go after it is substantial, compared to the available supply. Same with something like the e107 Waddell, which just went for 10K in the Huggins & Scott in just PSA 1.5. Both Williams cards will recover nicely, IMO, with better economic conditions over time. It's a very good time to buy, if you have the heart for it in a falling market--got my '52 Redman Williams in ExMt almost a year ago for a very acceptable price!

Coins experienced the same basic phenomenon, with items that were in fact desireable but not outright rare suffering price-wise much more than those that were far rarer and perhaps more significant in down markets. These kinds of items also recovered nicely when the next up-cycle hit that market. Coins have gone through virtually all of the trends we've seen with cards, but with about a 120-year head start on us, in terms of an organized market.

Sean, I love Cobb, and I heartily agree that that tough old son-of-gun would certainly have hit .400 quite a few more times had he been closer to his youthful prime when the lively ball era began. He would have been something like Sisler before the sinus infection (in an era without penicillin) adversely affected his vision--two .400+ seasons in a three-year span (1920 & 1922). But the fact remains that comparing his runs created per 27 outs to the league average takes the conditions you cite into account, since everyone played under them in that era. Absolutely fantastic hitter--I can just picture him slamming line drives to all fields (check out his career doubles and triples!), or laying a drag bunt down and beating the throw to first handily, to keep the infielders honest.

Best always,

Larry

[irishdenny]

Originally Posted by ls7plus

While I'm sure that the SGC pop would be much smaller (I don't have access)

FYI... SGC PoP Report iS Free...

[sox1903wschamp]

Originally Posted by ls7plus

The last time I checked the PSA pop report on the '54 Wilson Franks Williams there were a total of around 112 graded by PSA alone (although only 30-some in ExMt or better). While I'm sure that the SGC pop would be much smaller (I don't have access), that's still enough that they are available if you really want one in mid-grade, and if you miss one, it won't be too long before another comes along.

Yep, there is an Ex-Mt in Mile High that just previewed.

[alanu]

Overall, imho, the auction houses are benifiting (sp?) from the museum BIN's on ebay and the lack of straight auctions for nice vintage items on ebay.

[calvindog]

They're also benefiting from massive fraud.

Unrelated, but how's Josh Evans feeling? I heard he was sick.

[rainier2004]

Calvin - Whats this fraud you speak of?

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by irishdenny

FYI... SGC PoP Report iS Free...

Thanks Denny, didn't know that! I'll check it out.

Best always,

Larry

[drc]

As far as authenticity and getting the item and getting it as described, the good big auction houses will be a lot more reliable than eBay-- thus it's reasonable that they would get higher bids. eBay can be a crap shoot sometimes, and people won't pay a premium for that. If it's 20% more likely that you'll get the item as described in Huggins and Scott than on eBay, sane bidders would bid higher in Huggins and Scott, in particular if you're plunking down thousands of dollars.

I also suspect that some well healed collectors and investors don't buy much on eBay. They likely think it's a circus, and prefer to deal with fewer but established sellers.

In an extreme case, if you had the money wanted to buy a T206 Honus Wagner where would you look? The big auction houses or on eBay? This may give a glimpse into the way said well healed collectors and investors look at eBay.

[YankeeCollector]

Originally Posted by alanu

Overall, imho, the auction houses are benifiting (sp?) from the museum BIN's on ebay and the lack of straight auctions for nice vintage items on ebay.

I totally agree.

[YankeeCollector]

Originally Posted by calvindog

They're also benefiting from massive fraud.

Unrelated, but how's Josh Evans feeling? I heard he was sick.

How could we go about preventing this fraud?

[autograf]

Fraud notwithstanding................When you have the depth of goods these major auction houses have in a single auction, you're going to attract much more attention than the flea market that is ebay. Given ebay has reduced the actual categories out there to almost nil, you have to search for specific items or go through THOUSANDS of items to find the few you want. I think that has ultimately hurt ebay (and the rest of us). Although they have found a myriad of other reasons to shoot themselves in the foot. And fraud is rife on ebay too as we all know.....

[rainier2004]

Seriously, what fraud is this? Are you saying huggins and scott are fraudulent at times? I thought they were the sure fire safe purchase?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by rainier2004

Seriously, what fraud is this? Are you saying huggins and scott are fraudulent at times? I thought they were the sure fire safe purchase?

Huggins and Scott is an advertiser here so keep that in mind. That being said, in all of my collecting experiences, Huggins and Scott Auctions is one of the few auction houses that I have never heard a whisper of impropriety about. They are one of the auction houses I would even place an up-to bid with....

[vintagerookies51]

Originally Posted by rainier2004

Seriously, what fraud is this? Are you saying huggins and scott are fraudulent at times? I thought they were the sure fire safe purchase?

I beleive they are saying eBay is fraud, not Huggins and Scott.

[autograf]

Think one of the posters was making a generalization about fraud in the larger auction houses but nothing specific with H&S. Like Leon, I've bid and won tons of stuff there with up to bids and hardly ever hit them. They always ship quickly and are responsive when I have questions..........

[rainier2004]

Okay, okay. My experiences with h/s have been positive, but i didnt realize the fraudulence that existed in other auctions that is being report on this thread.
Any places bad in particular? I read the guys selling fake auto, and ive been here long enough to form an opinion on coaches corner, but are there major auction houses that employ fraud?

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by autograf

Like Leon, I've bid and won tons of stuff there with up to bids and hardly ever hit them. They ....

What are "up to" bids?

[GemMintAuctions]

Originally Posted by rainier2004

What are "up to" bids?

The same as a "max bid" or "ceiling bid". It's when you set the highest dollar amount that you want the system to bid on your behalf instead of just placing a straight bid. Many people are reluctant to place these through auction houses because they can see them in their system and some will shill bid up to them.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by GemMintAuctions

The same as a "max bid" or "ceiling bid". It's when you set the highest dollar amount that you want the system to bid on your behalf instead of just placing a straight bid. Many people are reluctant to place these through auction houses because they can see them in their system and some will shill bid up to them.

Correct on the definition of a max or up to bid. Not quite correct, at least for all auction houses, on being able to see those max (up-to) bids. I know REA advertises they can't see up to bids and in the auction that Scott and I run we can't see them either. From day one of our existence we have instructed our s/w provider, Create Auctions, to not even have that as an option for us. We have never been able to see a max bid, it's physically impossible, on purpose. For that reason I have had a number of bidders tell us they do put up to bids in, in our auction, whereas they won't with many auctions. regards