Ok....what 3 pre-war HOF'ers would you boot out?

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Posted By: Dave

If you had to pick three that would have to get out of the Hall....who and why?

Mine...partly discussed in another thread that spurned this one...

1. Miller Huggins...Only 1400 career wins as a manager...won 3 World Series..but look at the team he had!

2. Roger Bresnahan....this one has already been discussed as well...borderline, in today's world he doesn't get in.

3. This one may cause a stir....Addie Joss....great pitcher, great record..but it was only 9 years...was this a sympathy pardon??


Ok..welcome to take shots now...

Dave

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Posted By: barrysloate

Dave- while I am not answering your question directly, I have long felt, somewhat tongue in cheek, that there are too many people in the Hall and they should start paring it down.

It could be like spring cleaning, where they go through the room with all the plaques and start yanking them off the wall and tossing them in the trash bin. Get it back down to the 50-75 greatest players of all time. Now that would be a real Hall of Fame.

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Posted By: Dave

I thought i'd eat a peanut butter and jelly sandwich before going to a foot long meatball sub...

Although I guess I could pick 40 names and piss everybody off ....ha ha

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Posted By: barrysloate

Dave- sorry, but you lost me there. What about peanut butter and jelly (try cashew butter, I eat it almost every day)?

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Posted By: peter chao

Barry,

Since this the Net54 forum we need controversy in order to maintain our reputation. I say keep all of the Hall of Famers. The real reason for the Hall is to preserve the history of baseball. Even the borderline Hall of Famers help reproduce the history of baseball and should be kept.

Peter

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Posted By: Joe D.

the Hall is an honor for a person and his family.

It is a welcoming into a select fraternity.


How can you possibly take something like that away?

I think it would be terrible.

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Posted By: Brian Lindholme

George Kelly
Dave Bancroft
either Tony Perez or Don Sutton or Rick Ferrell or Joe Sewell or many others...

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Posted By: Dave

I respectfully disagree. Although it will never happen (taking players out), if for some reason they ever did and Huggins and Wallace for example were removed, do you really think Miller Huggins great great great grandson would be that grief stricken?

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Posted By: Dave

All decent choices...but to make it harder...keep the choices all pre-war....ha ha

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Posted By: MVSNYC

obviously no person in the hall is going to get "booted"...i think the way to handle it going forward is to really tighten-up the door, and let in only a handful from the current & future eras...only the MOST dominent players (i.e. clemens, pujols, etc)...

think about this: the first year for the Hall (1936) they only inducted 12 people (out of the already 1,000's that had played up until then)...it must be very very selective going forward or else, before you know it, we will have 500+ people in there...

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Posted By: Dave

Bancroft may be a very good choice looking at it.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I admit what I said was partly tongue in cheek...you can't really throw people out.

But I do have two points to make: You can't put Babe Ruth and Honus Wagner in the same group as Bobby Doerr and George Kell (and Kell needs to brush up his driving skills, too).

Also, there are so may people in the Hall that generations from now, when the number surpasses 300 and then 400 members, I think most of the players will become a total mystery. It's simply too many people in one group if each of these people is supposed to stand out. Who is going to know Dave Bancroft or Eppa Rixey fifty years from now?

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Dave, you're pretty close on that one... I don't think that the "Huggins" and Scott auctions would close down either!

Pick three....

Tinkers, Evers... (but keep Chance), need one more... my gawd... there are soooooo many to chose from. Hey, wait a minute, I can't kick out Tinkers to Evers or the price of that T202 (Tinkers, Evers - center panel - Chance) card would drop like a rock... Wait a minute, I have a lot of those border line HOFers in my collection. We can't do that. The value of my colletion (and many others would go down). We need to elect MORE players that are borderline or less. Let me look over my "commons / Non- HOF" box of cards and see who needs to be elected....

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Posted By: Joe D.

yes I do think it will effect the family.

If Miller Huggins was your great great grandfather wouldn't you be proud that he is a hall of famer? and be upset if someone was trying to take that recognition away?

Also - what does it say to the new inductees....
"We think you are worthy of this honor now.... but we may change our mind at some point - and deem that you are not Hall of Fame Caliber... oh and by the way... welcome."

or to the living HOFers?
"Check the paper each year... your greatness may be stripped from you - our opinion may just change.... so, enjoy it while it lasts"


That is not how you honor a person for any achievement in life... and quite frankly I think it would work to destroy the Hall of Fame.

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Posted By: Dave

Valid points...and I don't think you ever have to worry...the day they start kicking people out of the Hall pigs will fly and I'll be wearing a bra.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

sorry, it was brought to my attention that i was thinking of the 1939 innuagural ceremony when the first 12 (or so) players were grouped together for a photo...the very first class was merely 5 players, which helps to illustrate my point even more...

http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/history/first5/default.htm


Ruth
Cobb
Matty
Wagner
Johnson

wow.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Joe- of course they will never kick anybody out who is already there.

But I do think the Hall is getting too big and there are too many names that may not hold up to the test of time. Like I said, take your grandson there in 25 years and ask him what he thinks of Frank Selee's plaque. His eyes are likely to glaze over.

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Posted By: Brian Lindholme

There has been some discussion in the past about honoring current HOFers with a special designation like "inner circle" or "Golden Hall member".

To the points made about the future of the HOF when there could be 400 members, with the special designation, your Babe Ruths wouldn't be crowded into the same bunch as Gary Carter and Chick Hafey.

I agree that there shouldn't really be anyone thrown out, but the elevated status might make for some interesting voting!

Brian L
familytoad

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Posted By: Darren

Keep the number at 100 and for someone to get in someone must be voted out.

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Posted By: Dave

And nobody as of yet has disagreed with my Joss statement? Hmm.

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Posted By: peter chao

Guys,

Didn't Frank Selee play basketball. No, but the fact that we do not know all the biographical details of the different Hall of Famers is what helps preserve the mystery of baseball. We all become more inquisitive when wonder about why Joe Tinker is in the Hall of Fame. Then presto, you find out that it helps to have a poem written about you.

Peter

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Posted By: Joe D.

I am sure it would never happen.

I just wanted to point out why it should not ever happen.


The thread does make for fun hypotheticals... although I can't bring myself to name any names

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Posted By: MVSNYC

dave- maybe you are confused with some other "Joss"...but Addie Joss' stats are pretty impressive, even if it was only 9 years...he had one of the lowest ERA's in history...goto baseball-reference.com and check out his wins, complete games, and ERA each season...wow.

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Posted By: Jason L

...and me without my Captain America tie on!

I think it is fair to say that the HOF is in danger of hurting itself:
1) Dante Bichette received votes...the voting process is problematic
2) The HOF Induction weekend has become an ever increasingly important business to the local community/economy...what would happen if no one was elected one year? or 2-3 years in a row? So you have local incentive to put someone in every year...conspiracy theories abound...
3) Who knows Eppa Rixey NOW, never mind in 50 years!? The ever-present fight is to present interesting lessons in history...that is what they are there for...
and
4) Dante Bichette received votes

I don't think anyone should ever be reomved, or even re-categorized into subsets, like Golden Members (where's Austin Powers?), because that will simply serve to detract from how important it is to place the players within the context of their eras and contemporaries...I found the Bresnahan discussion to be very informative, because while his stats aren't great on an absolute basis, I was surprised to see how important he was for his time!

but seriously, the Dante Bichette thing is troublesome...

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Posted By: Brian Lindholme

Dave,
I guess I should have mentioned that kicking out Addie Joss would be a terrible decision !

My avatar would indicate that he is one of my favorites. He wouldn't be one of my "inner circle" members, but he's right behind Nap Lajoie as my favorite HOF pre-war player.

Of course, someone out there may idolize George Kelly or Fred Lindstrom as their favorite players of all-time, so there is no disrespect to anyone intended.

So Dave, would you mind picking another player to kick out so that I don't have to buy a E107 Lajoie, scan it and create a new avatar...thanks !!lol

Brian L
fmailytoad

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Posted By: warshawlaw

Addie Joss did get a sympathy vote because he died suddenly and young, but he was HOF caliber. Same with Ross Youngs.

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Posted By: Brett

Just off the top of my head :

Tinker, Evers and Marquard.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Here's an idea: how about taking all the players already inducted, and divide the hall into two sections:

1) The Hall of Greats

2) The Hall of Somewhat Greats

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Joss deserves to be in - less than a 2.00 ERA with a pretty good winning percentage (160-97, .623%). It's hard to knock someone who was a dominating player but was cut down in the prime (right after his 31st birthday) of his life.

I remember when I was a kid I kept a list of players that I figured deserved to be in the HOF. Joss was at the top of that list. Finally, in 1978 they enshrined him. If ever there was a 9 year player that deserved to be in the HOF, it was Joss.

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Posted By: Justin

1. Morgan Bulkeley, first NL president, had a very short tenure and really only go the position by pure luck. My understanding is that the initial NL owners drew straws to pick who would get what position.

2. Candy Cummings, a very good NA pitcher, who alledgedly invented the curveball, but tons of evidence contradicts this.

3. Tommy McCarthy, had a couple really good seasons in a great offensive era, supposedly invented inside baseball, but again I don't think he deserves sole credit.

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Posted By: peter chao

Adam,

Addie Joss should not be in the Hall. It was a strong sympathy vote that got him in. Addie was still pitching well when he passed away, there were many ballplayers that wanted to attend his funeral, but the major league owners refused to cancel ballgames.
Addie became a symbol for major leaguers that wanted to be treated as equals instead of chattel.

Although Addie Joss' numbers were exceptional, they were not exceptional for that era...quite unlike Sandy Koufax whose numbers were outstanding for his era.

After all of the above has been said, I would still want Addie Joss to be in the Hall.

Peter

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Posted By: E, Daniel

In Aussie Rules football we have it, where people associated with the game in a particularly significant way may be enshrined to the Hall of Fame, and then within that are individuals so special in their traits that they can be given the designation "Legends".
Only a tiny number have been given the honor - 18 I think, and you really need to be a once in a generation kind of player or coach to be considered.


http://www.afl.com.au/Season2007/Awards/HallofFame/Legends/tabid/855/Default.aspx



Daniel

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Posted By: Dave Williams

Off the top of my head, 3 worthy candidates


Tommy McCarthy

Lloyd Waner

Bid McPhee

Not to mention a whole flock of folks who played between 1920 and 1940 like Jesse Haines (even as a Cardinal fan, he is no HOF'er), Hack Wilson, Travis Jackson.

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Posted By: Anonymous

The baseball hall of fame is so prestigous compared to other pro sports hall of fames partly because it has been relatively strict. There currently isnt an accepted format of what qualifies a person to be a hall of famer. Now ofcourse theres going to be the greatest players of all time, and there's going to be some that may be seen as borderline. But cmon, no one thinks that all hall of famers are equal, just cause theyve become hall of famers. The hall is stricter then many give it credit for. There are some outstanding baseball players who for one reason or another will never be hall of famers. Go ahead and rank the players and set up tiers to place them in but overall its worked out pretty well

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Posted By: Dave

I dont have any doubt Addie Joss was probably one of the most talented pitchers in his era. I just find it really tough to put someone in with nine years of service. He may very well have pitched five more years and won another 100 games or pitched 10 more years and won another 175 games and easily have been in...but, he didn't. If he was that worthy why was it 1978 until he got in, 60 some odd years after he died? To me...if you don't get in until 60 years after your death..your borderline. The people that voted Joss in weren't the same people that watched him pitch...they were all dead...and for whatever reason chose not to include him in thier time period.

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Posted By: Justin

I think most of the the criticism the HOF gets is based upon the selections of the 40's and 50's(and to lesser extent the 60's) when a lot of cronyism and nostalgia was taking place. Because no guidelines were in place to define a worthy HOFer, many players were elected based on fond recollections rather than cold hard stats.

It's gotten much better recently, but the mistakes of the past still cause problems.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Dave,

I thought that the criteria for enshrinement was 10 years of ML service. I may be wrong because the Negro Leaguers have 0 years of ML service. Please, I'm not saying they are not deserving so lets not go there... I just always thought that players were supposed to have 10 years of ML service.

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Posted By: peter chao

Dave,

Most of the questionable Hall of Famers have come through the Veterans Committee and Bill James writes an interesting book called, "Politics of Glory" discussing the politics of that committee through the years.

The new Veterans Committee understands that prior committee nominations have been less than stellar and seem intent on limiting future Veterans Comittee admitees. We shall see.

Peter

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Posted By: steve

The Hall of Fame is kinda like a museum. A museum sometimes gets rid of the old to bring in better material. No more Mr. Nice Guy with the Veteran's Committee. If you don't make it in the regular elections, thats it, period.

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Posted By: Eric B

K M Landis , Comiskey, and Barry Bonds, just in case.

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Posted By: peter chao

Eric,

Long before steroids became a household topic. Barry already had 3 or 4 MVPs, there are many in the Hall without a single MVP, and all players with 3 MVPs (that are eligible) are in. Presently, he also meets the moral character requirements for the Hall. Barry's a shoo-in.

Peter

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Posted By: john/z28jd

I think the big problem is that people put too much merit into the Hall of Fames choices but very few knowledgable people(if any) agree with them. I enjoy the Hall for what it is,a museum,but as definitive word of who's the best players all-time theyre an absolute joke. I dont let it bother me,i do my research and i come to my own conclusions.

Because the Hall is already watered down i see no problem including more players from the past so their history isnt forgotten. If they dont want to let someone like Don Mattingly in now to tighten up standards its not comparable to not voting in someone like Tony Mullane because we have no footage of Mullane,just old stories passed down thru generations. 200 years from now people will know how Don Mattingly stood in the batters box but they wont know Mullane threw from a pitchers box back in the day. Mattinglys legacy is preserved while Mullane's is forgotten despite the numbers he put up which could all be changed by a little common sense and a bronze plaque

So to answer the original question,there isnt a player pre any war who id even remotely consider removing

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Posted By: Chris Counts

Since booting HOFers would never go over with baseball fans, I believe the only realistic and fair thing to do is put in every player that is clearly better than someone already in there at his position. So because Fred Lindstrom and George Kell are in there, you have to induct Ken Boyer, Stan Hack and Ron Santo, who were simply better players. Wally Schang was much better than Ray Schalk, so he gets in. Minnie Minoso and Tony Oliva were better than half the HOF outfielders, many of whom padded their stats during the 1920s. As an example of how absurd the HOF is, consider the parallel careers of Lefty Gomez and Lon Warnecke. They have virtually the same career numbers — during virtually the same years — and yet nobody is calling for Warnecke's induction or Gomez' boot ...

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Posted By: peter chao

Chris,

The proper way to look at the HOF is to look at it as an honor. Once the honor has been bestowed it looks awful cheesy to take the trophy away. But at the same time even if a player is clearly better than someone that is currently in the Hall the player should not be automatically picked for the Hall of Fame. The reason for this is admission to the Hall is not something which is earned, it is an honor which the Hall bestows on some and not others who may be equally deserving.

Peter

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Posted By: Justin

I totally agree that it would be inappropriate to boot people out of the Hall of Fame. But I also don't think every comparable player who isn't in the Hall should be put in to compensate for past mistakes. I would love to see Harry Stovey, Sherry Magee, Bobby Mathews, Roger Maris, Stan Hack, among others in the Hall, but electing old dead ballplayers en masse doesn't accomplish anything really.

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Posted By: anthony

2 halls in one building...

Hall of Fame...for the obvious

and

Hall of honorable mention...for the so-so guys who are not quite the hall of fame material...maybe this hall could take over the women's league, who needs that??? (just kidding, dont freak out!)

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Posted By: Chris Counts

Peter,

I agree that the HOF should be an honor. Unfortunately, I believe it's more of an exclusive country club. And now that its members are the "Veterans' Committee," its members are now its gatekeepers. And as long as guys like Minnie Minoso, Ron Santo and Tony Oliva are sitting on the outside looking in, there will always be guys like me ranting and questioning the HOF's credibility. An honor, it seems to me, is bestowed upon someone who is deserving of its recognition. After looking at all the evidence, can you honestly tell me Minnie is less deserving than Chick Hafey, Ross Youngs or Fred Lindstrom, who just happened to be teammates of Frankie Frisch when he was running the Veterans' Committee? I'm not advocating putting them all in at once, but lately the number of players has slowed to a trickle. Think about it — Bill Mazeroski is now voting on Ron Santo's HOF plight. Who would you rather have on your team? I believe baseball should be honoring its illustrious past. It's good for the game, the fans will love it, and it's the right thing to do ...

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Posted By: dennis

completed 234 of 260 games started
pitched 2 no hitters, one a perfect game
lifetime era 1.88, 2nd all time
pitched 7 one hitters,9 less than 2 hit games was a record till broke by bob feller in 1948
most similiar pitcher of era: ed walsh
2 other short career pitchers comparable to joss(160-97)....dizzy dean(150-83) & sandy koufax(165-87)

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Posted By: Darren

I like the idea of adding legendary status to some members, eg the Babe, Ty, Matty , WJ, Lou, etc.

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Posted By: Paul

If I could only pick three, I'd kick out Morgan Bulkeley, Tommy McCarthy, and George Kelly.

But very close behind would be Harry Hooper, Rick Ferrell, Red Schoendienst, Phil Rizzuto, Eppa Rixey, Red Faber, Roger Bresnahan, Tinker-Evers-Chance, Travis Jackson, Chick Hafey, Bucky Harris, and probably several more that aren't coming to mind right away.