Report of the January 25 NYC Hobby Forum

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Posted By: Jason L

that is a totally sickening response
but at least not a lie, and for that, I guess we should be thankful

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Jason,

My disappointment was that noone at the meeting thought there was any reason to go forward with collectors association, steps to counter card alteration etc. Some collectors--particularly Al and Frank-- I would consider to be close "hobby friends" so I am by no means knocking them--their heads are just not in the same place that mine is around the issue.

If there is another meeting imo, it needs to be with just collectors who believe there is a need for constructive change and are eager to move forward.

Jim

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Jason, What you and I and other serious collectors believe is a "sickening response" some on this board will be actually happy about because it means status quo where taking out creases is actively encouraged.

This is why I say that if there is a next meeting it should only be among those who agree with us and are ready to push for change.

Jim

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Posted By: barrysloate

Two points I would like to make:

1) Doug did address that post by responding that he only referred to the laying down of a corner that was dinged by mishandling. He was not talking about ironing out creases. However, I don't want to speak for him beyond that since it is not my place. Again, he can be reached at his cell number.

2) Jim- I nor anyone else at the meeting was against a collector's organization. I just don't see how we can do it. If you have an idea to propose, I will listen and if it makes sense will support it any way I can.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

i was at the meeting, and i want to clarify something...

no one was against a "collector's alliance"...i think the issue that we thought about and said "wouldn't work"...was the "code of ethics". we all felt that would be tuff to impliment & monitor, because every dealer and auction house would sign it and who knows if they would follow the "code"...how can that be monitored? even crooked dealers would say sure, i'll sign it and then go into their basement and doctor a card (if they were the crooked type)...who wouldn't sign it? they'd be stupid not to...

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Posted By: Cat

I've stayed out of these discussions and I am probably breaking the "let's be nice" rule but when I started reading these threads about additional layers of protection so that altered cards do not get put in holders with grades of 8 to 10, in about two seconds I came to my conclusion as to what the real issue is....

If a collector/investor has thousands of cards in PSA (or SGC) 8, 9 and 10 holders representing a seven figure investment, then the best way to increase the value of that investment (and make sure that it does not decline in value because of increased supply), is to assure that more cards do not get slabbed with similar grades. If the collector really cared he would of ranted and raved prior to buying thousands of cards in these holders.

If you have a supply and demand sensitive investment, it is very wise to restrict supply if you can. When these collectors start cracking their cards out and resubmitting to learn the truth about their existing collections then I'll believe their motives.

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Posted By: barrysloate

And the flip side of what Michael just said is: if a dealer is honest and ethical, he doesn't have to sign or agree to anything, because he will continue to run his business right, as that's the only way he knows how to do it.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Barry,

As far as laying down a corner that was damaged by mishandling here are Doug Allen's quotes:

"I have no problem light creases or surface wrinkles that do not break the surface"

"If the crease does not comprimise the integrity of the paper I don't have a problem with it."

Jim

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Cat,

Since you are breaking the lets be nice rule--let me suggest that you take more than two seconds to think about it and you would come to a different conclusion. Anyone who has met me would not come to that 2 second conclusion and knows that I genuinely care about the hobby.

And don't be silly--noone is going to break their high end cards out of a high grade holder to see what a company might think the second time.

Why not before--I nhave only recently become aware of the severity of the problem.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Doug was talking about the most insignificant creases visible, but I agree, why get into a game of semantics.

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Posted By: Joann

I think Jim is onto something, but I don't know how to articulate it or suggest how anyone go about it. I believe that if there were some kind of oversight organization made up of collectors, there could be changes.

I don't know either Doug or Dave and take at face value that they attended for the purpose of contributing. However, it crossed my mind that another reason for attending was because they do recognize the potential power and impact of the group we loosely refer to as "this board" and wanted to make sure they were there to hear the goings on and be able to respond and react accordingly. Like I said, I don't know these guys and am uncomfortable attributing motives, but it made sense to me that they would attend.

Paul even alluded to the same thing in one of the posts above. This board does do a pretty good job of flushing out issues and people/companies that might be behaving "outside the lines". And that's just as a loosely compiled (and often changing) group of individuals.

Imagine how much impact this group could have if it were organized or institutionalized in some way. Probably a lot. I just don't have the first clue how to go about it, but if there is another meeting maybe that could be on the agenda - how to collate the influence of collectors into something that, while not perfect, might at least be an improvement.

Joann

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Posted By: Cat

Jim:

First of all Jim, I don't mind having an adult conversation about this, so don't assume this is an attack. I have had a few months now since this all started to think it through a bit further, but my conclusion hasn't changed. You are right, I don't honestly expect you to crack your cards out, it would be horrible for your investment. I am not insulting your intelligence by my previous post. To the contrary, protecting supply is wise business move. But, I do question the idea that someone who has been has put as much into this as you have, "recently became aware of the severity of the problem."

Whatever your motives, if you can make the hobby cleaner, I am for it.

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Posted By: T206Collector

The status quo is not a universe "where taking out creases is actively encouraged." As you pointed out, "Dave [Foreman of SGC] thought he would be able to detect the longer light crease alteration and would either not grade the card or mark it down significantly if he found it." Based on this statement, I am confident in SGC's current abilities to address this issue. Indeed, based on these comments, taking out creases is being discouraged by SGC.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Joann,

Those are valid points. Good thoughts.

Cat,

Trust me--restricting supply has never crossed my mind.

Jim

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Posted By: Jason L

should be EVERYONE'S concern, not just Jim, and not just for folks who play in the $50 cards like myself....I mean honestly, who in their right mind would pay the same $$ for the cards that they already own if they learned that card doctors are out there refreshing the population with newly upgraded cards?!

One of the principal reasons that many of us pay money for these collectibles is because we believe there is a limited number of them that adds to their monetary value and overall "specialness"...doesn't matter if it's a $25 card or a $25,000 card...if we learn that the supply is increasing, then the value goes down, the cards you already own are in question, and everyone's idea of "specialness" is soured...

My point is that supply SHOULD ALREADY BE restricted!!! as of the date the card was printed.

And not to be too absurd about it, but on a different point, I derive great joy out of showing my collection to my extended family or friends when they visit, and seeing their reactions when I explain how old a card is, or why I collect it, etc....now imagine how stupid it sounds if I have to start saying, "I bought this card because I love the stories about him from when he was with the Cubs, and it comes from a very scarce set that is 87 years old...-well, except these two corners, which are from 1994."

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Posted By: Cobby33

There's a fine line between addressing a legitimate epidemic and rendering all of our collections worthless, trying to expose something that either doesn't exist, or exists on a very remote level.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Epidemic is the word used my both Dave Forman and Doug Allen.

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

must make it doubly-tough on folks like Dave at SGC and Joe Orlando at PSA because they have to weigh turning down grading cards versus trying to book revenue. Although I guess if a trimmed card is submitted and detected, they are getting paid still. I would 'assume' (you know what happens there) that they keep such numbers in some type of database. I'd think that based on the slips that at least SGC sends back where they check off the type of alteration, they should be able to give some statistics on what % of cards are coming in altered....from those, what the most prevalent alterations are, from those or from the altered cards, how many are being slabbed under the 'A' monicker.....but I'm sure that type of information would never be disclosed. Transparency is part of the problem you've tried to address with them.......

I know Rob Lifson sent that email about the card from an auction being resubmitted. I'd think it would be difficult for someone in the auction world to turn down an already graded card for auctioning that they thought had been altered in some way. Hopefully they have a good enough dialog that they work together on those issues.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Dave said they keep an active database of altered cards and made the comment to the effect --you'd be surprised the level of info that we keep about altered cards--I would suspect although he did not say that they keep this information by submitter too.

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

that's interesting......didn't really think about them keeping it by submitter.....that could be beneficial in actually 'flagging' a specific submitter.....wonder who the biggest 'offenders' are?

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Posted By: Kevin

"Epidemic is the word used my both Dave Forman and Doug Allen."

That's probably a fair statement.

What's alarming is the percentage that end up slabs. Based on experience, it's as common in low to mid grades as it is at the PSA 8 level.

Because most collectors know so little about detecting even basic alterations, many believe that the authenticators are infallible and are at the mercy of their ruling.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Kevin,

Bingo!

Right on all scores.

Jim

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Posted By: RC McKenzie

I would not want to send any cards to a grading company that reserved the right to place 'marks' on cards that I sent to be 3rd party authenticated; especially, cards that are rare in any condition.

If the card were a 1957 Topps Paul Foytack in vg/e and they want to put a mark on it, then I guess that's ok.

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Posted By: Steve

Almost needless to say, I think what Jim is trying to do is noble and something with which I could not be more supportive.

The two problems that I see that make any solution difficult are

(1) Grading companies. It seems incredibly unlikely that the grading services are going to admit that a fair number of altered cards are being slabbed. Any solution that requires them to issue large scale re-imbursements is probably a non-starter. We all agree with Barry that the grading services be more scrupulous but how to make that happen in real action is a real question.

(2) Dealers/fixers. Many of the dealers know who plays with their cards simply by virtue of buying patterns. When we see people who mostly sell 8s buy well centered Ex-Mt and NM cards, alarm bells go off but it is now to the point where there is a blase attitude and no one will do anything. It would be nice if the industry (be it collectors or dealers or combination) police itself but that means there have to be REAL CONSEQUENCES for those who are strongly suspected of altering their cards. This means people really boycotting certain suspected auctions and/or dealers and really doing it and not just providing lip service. This may be just as difficult a problem as the first as it requires dealers (and collectors) to (a) have a moral backbone and (b) possibly act against their short-term economic interests...

Just my thoughts and I honest hope I am mistaken.

Steve Verkman
www.csauctions.com

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Posted By: barrysloate

Steve- you need to be pretty certain before you start boycotting someone's auction.

One of the points I brought up to Dave and Doug was that there are certain dealers who make a living endlessly resubmitting cards. I couldn't exactly put my finger on why I object to it because anybody is free to disagree with a grade and request a review. But it is what may be happening to the cards in between submissions that is probably my real concern.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Steve,

Thanks for having the guts to post. The lack of willingness of many dealers to explain their policies to their customers is disappointing to say the least.

And I will say that the boycott is beginning but just not public. I know three "friends" of mine who are significant graded card collectors who in the past two months have decided not to do business with certain dealers/auction houses. The list varies slightly from collector to collector but contains common dealers. I have decided to stop buying from one dealer/auction house and am considering two more. Maybe it will build--I don't know--but I hope it shows that the lack of willingness of dealers to explain their policies has consequences. I will still buy from Mastronet despite their admission that they take creases out of cards--at least they are honest. I will buy from Rob Lifson because of the ethical stance he has taken.

Jim

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

Jim, I would very much like to have a Collector's Association to promote honesty in the hobby, but I just don't see how this is going to happen. Besides, as I mentioned to you before the meeting, how could we talk about a hobby group when you invited a major auctioneer and a grading company exec? Maybe another all-hobbyist forum is in order.

I agree with Jim that there are three Auction Houses that have lost my business due to recent revelations. I will, however, still bid with REA and Mastro.



Frank

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Posted By: Sean C

I think that a collector's association is a great idea, and would be something that I would be willing to help try to set, if you are looking for assistance Jim. Shoot me an email when you have a chance (seanchristian@yahoo.com).

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Frank,

I am happy to hear that. I was not counting you among those that were boycotting certain auction houses. You have a good point that it was not the right audience for this. If we can get enough interest, perhaps another meeting is in order with people who are committed to a specific agenda.

Sean,

I appreciate your offer of help and will keep you posted.

Jim

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Posted By: leon

For the record I am not opposed to trying to better the hobby. Barry Halper tried an association in the early 80's and I don't think it got too far. It had hobby luminaries signed up and everything. Today is a different age though. With the internet, and information traveling at the speed of "a keyboard", it might be more doable. You will first need to decide the goals and targeted membership though.....If I can help let me know.....This board might be a very good place to start....I am not sure what teeth this association can have but I know this board has some fairly sharp ones.....good luck...

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Thank you for your offer Leon but I am not sure I agree that here is a good place to start. If this is done, I would cherry pick the collectors who have a genuine interest in this and avoid the nay-sayers and attack dogs.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- cherry picking the members sounds a bit elitist. We have to assume that anyone who joins would have the same interest of keeping things on the up and up. Count me in as one of them.

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

Thought that a little too but I can see Jim's point about keeping it moving forward. Don't get rid of people with dissenting views though as long as they are constructive in presentation. Like Leon, I remember the Barry Halper thing or something like that many years ago but wasn't really in a position to care then. I think, given the HUGE amount of money involved now, something like this might have more movement--especially, like Leon said, with the advent of the internet........

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Posted By: barrysloate

Like any organization, it needs a stated purpose and an agenda of how it will get things done. At this point there are many of us who agree in spirit, but nobody who actually understands how it might work.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Barry,

By keeping it open to all, we will have the following:

1)Those who think that grading cards is the root of all evil and we are only interested in the high-grade collector will sound off in their usual way.

2)Those who are buddies with certain dealers will criticize me as running an inquisition when I ask dealers for information and suggest I should leave Net54.

3)Those who just don't like the direction things are going will attack me and if you forget who these people are I can provide the out of the blue attacks from those I have never spoken to before.

Also Barry, there is the sense that it should be collectors only. I know you think like a collector but I don't think at this point at least auction houses and graders ought to be in the discussion.

If you all disagree and want to battle it out with the above groups--fine--count me out.

If you want to work behind the scenes and make things happen or be part of a dinner group where people are committed to change going in then I will be a part of.

Jim

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Posted By: Dave Hornish

I am actually going through something very similar to this with my professional association at the moment. By way of background, I am (and I am not making this up) an average adjuster by trade, which means I have training and expertise to adjust hull and machinery claims on cargo and passenger vessels (average means "loss" in our parlance). Our core professional association is about 130 years old but we have associate members who are marine insurance brokers (a group I also belong to), underwriters, lawyers and other "interested people". For 115 years things ran pretty smooth from what I have seen but we have been trying for the last fifteen years to reorganize our association to be more inclusive to the associate members and it is not working out very well, primarily because each group is trying to inject too much into their argument.

I think when you talk about a collectors association, you are really talking about a setting a collective, definable, mimimum standard for ethical behavior. It seems you could have say three or four categories of collectors (probably by era, such as pre-war, post war, post 1980, etc., however seems appropriate), a group of grading co. reps, dealers and auctioneers and possibly publishers and webmasters or maybe even boards such as this represented and come up with a basic definition for conduct and deportment. The big problem I saw when the NSCCA collectors association (or whatever it was called when forming in the 80's) is that it was too ambitious.

If you could name a short set of goals, such a what an acceptable card alteration is, what an honest auction listing should include, perhaps a method of dispute resolution, some guidelines for communication and a few other things it could work and be built upon. If it turns into collectors vs. graders or the like it is certainly doomed. We already have a group or association of collectors on this board from what I see, albeit in a loose sense.

You would probably start with an exploratory committee and need a chairperson, then form an executive committee with secretary and treasurer, add an implementation committee or membership committee, plus start a by-laws committee. A press officer would be a good idea too if that function is not handled by the secretary. Each committee should have representative membership from each group and you need a process to nominate people for the committees. Each committee should have a way to break ties, either through odd-numbered membership or procedure. I would charge minimal dues ($5 or $10) to keep out the trolls but free membership could work too with proper screening. If that can be pulled off (you probably need 18-20 good people eventually, serving staggered terms so there is continuity))then you will have something.

Just my two cents and I am sure there are numerous views on setup and what groups to include. I belong to three different professional associations and have served on all the committees of my own twice and all are run this way. The difference maker is that the best have forceful people at the top that are willing to listen but are also decisive. Otherwise, nothing is accomplished.

Food for thought....

Dave

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Dave,

Very helpful--are you interested in taking a leadership role in this?

Jim

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

you make some excellent and level-headed points. Also, let me add my belief that the group needs to be led, at least intially, by someone who is strong at building consensus. There will be divergent points made, no doubt, but the key is to keep the rhetoric to a minimum and focus on some realistic, short-term goals as a foundation upon which to build. Perhaps some perks for membership could be considered as well.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- you make a good point that has crossed my mind too...as a full time dealer and only casual collector (and I do not collect cards), perhaps my participating further in this could be construed as a conflict of interest. While I am happy to help, if you or anyone else feel it is inappropriate I will back off, and I say this with no hard feelings.

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Posted By: E, Daniel

Nicely laid out.

I'll paypal my dues (not more than $20 i hope ) the minute such an organization is running.

It's been asked to what purpose an umbrella association serves?

As all such groups, it serves like-minded peoples.
Why does it work? Because people buy into it, literally.
If the ideals are such that they speak to you, and the principles are those you would like to practice and have practiced with other hobbyists/members, then it works. Organizations exist because of the very natural inclination to join like minded peoples to share common passions or interests, or because of inherent inequality in power structures especially concerning health and safety.

If you get the basics right and keeping it simple as David has laid out, then it works. You don't need to chase people to join as much as allow the concept and idea to marinate amongst hobbyists, and it will draw similar minded people, some of them the 'big players' who will add interest and a percieved legitimacy of concept. And over time, if the concept has been well worked and is honestly good, the sheer weight of opinion will encourage the community to a greater extent to want to be a part of it.
And why will it affect practices?
Because those who join will want it to. Those whose activities are deemed inappropriate for the community will find themselves outside of their niche, or cash cow. I truly believe in almost every way it will be self policing, and where clear fraud has been committed the legal system can be used to correct the wrongs, and where the activity simply blurrs the principles of the association, that person can be excluded from membership.

I sure as heck know that I would search first, buy happiest, and sell most comfortably to people who shared at least my basic understanding of reasonably appropriate behavior in the hobby.


Daniel

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Posted By: Dave Hornish

Well, if it comes to anything and my help is wanted, I would be willing to serve as an advisor on how to set things up for now, at least, as opposed to a more active role. I am certainly not campaigning!

At present I am 4 months into a three year term on a committee with my professional association (www.usaverageadjusters.org if you want to lull yourself to sleep) and would probably not be able to devote enough time to a full committee or such (if elected, i will not serve?) here but would consider such participation at a later date.

I am happy to offer advice though, if that is desired as I have been through executive, membership and nomination committees, plus some ad hoc ones too, almost continuosly for the last dozen years.

Personally, I think you need a well-known hobby name to be chairman as some cachet is helpful. I forgot to add you need a lawyer for legal advice and will probably need D&O insurance unless membership rules specifically state no suing of directors is alllowed. Our association directors got sued about ten years ago and we were glad to have the D&O coverage! I think premium for D & O cover for a non-professional association would run $1,500 or so annually and I could help with contacts for that as well. Dang, you need dues after all if you buy insurance. Can't escape the lawyers and the underwriters......

Dave

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Todd, I agree that the leader of said organization should get some perks -- perhaps some free submissions at PSA?