Report of the January 25 NYC Hobby Forum

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Posted By: barrysloate

I'm back from our long awaited hobby meeting and am happy to say it was both enjoyable and productive. First, I want to thank Jim Crandell for providing a warm gathering place on a frigid night, as well as for the pizza and refreshments. Besides Jim and myself, attendees included Doug Allen, Dave Forman, Al Crisafulli, Frank Evanov, Dan Gantt, Michael Sarno, and Keith Thompson (grand nephew of HOFer Sam Thompson).

The discussion was lively, and our primary focus was to find ways all collectors can protect themselves from the fraudulent practices of hobby card doctors. While it is of course impossible to find all of the card trimmers who are working below the radar, we feel that the burden falls squarely on the shoulders of the grading service. With Dave Forman taking an active stand and explaining the various problem cards that cross his desk (he also brought in sample cards for us to study and try to determine which ones were good and which ones were bad), and Doug Allen being very open in discussing the process that Mastro Auctions goes through before any card makes it into one of their catalogs, we all felt a little better about the steps being taken to insure the integrity of the product.

We also had a brief discussion about the removal of creases, and Dave assured us that it would be very difficult for such a card to receive a high grade without being detected. Everyone at the meeting participated and gave their thoughts, and while no conclusions can ever be made in this ongoing process, we felt that besides the need of the grading services to provide the highest possible standards, every collector needs to likewise make his own assessment when buying a card. One of the things we realize that is missing today is either a book or comprehensive article that can educate collectors more in this area, especially those who are relatively new to the hobby.

I hope I touched all the bases here. I invite everyone to participate and ask questions, and for those who attended, please add anything I may have left out. And it was a social evening as well, and I know I enjoyed meeting a really nice group of board members.

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Posted By: Cobby33

Barry- Thank you for the insightful summary of the gathering and for defining, at the outset, who "we" are.

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Posted By: Matt Bojorquez

Barry,

I believe it was you who recently had an experience buying cards from a Mastro Auction and then sending them to SGC for grading. There was quite a variance between the Mastro Staff's grades and those given by SGC. With the head's of both of these companies present, did you bring up the topic of some sort of homogination of at least the numerical aspect of grading? I had a similar recent situation, I bought a card from the last Mastro Auction. PSA graded the card a Mint 9. The Mastro staff described it as "...this truly special card. Spectacular eye appeal! Pack-fresh Mint Condition." Yet, when I sent the card to SGC it was deemed to not be Mint. This is very frustrating for somebody trying to put together a collection using only one grading service. It would be nice if there could be some sort of universal grading scale; then customers could decide which company to patronize based soley on customer service, cost, holder preference, ability to detect altered cards and not on what a particular grader's opinion is the day he happens to be looking at your card.

Matt

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Did the subject of Mastro "preparing" cards for grading come up at all?

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

"Did the subject of Mastro "preparing" cards for grading come up at all?"

Yes, Doug Allen stated it was a rare occurence and certainly not the norm. He noted that the extent of preparing did not go beyond pencil mark erasure or minimal corner smoothing.

Frank

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Posted By: barrysloate

Matt- yes I did bring that up to Doug, and he said while Derek Grady and Kevin Struss look at virtually every significant card closely, it is almost impossible for them to examine every card from every bulk lot. Admittedly, the ones I am referring to originate from large lots of T and E cards that I usually go after, as hopefully they will result in some break value. I don't think that gives them a free pass to overgrade, and they should be more diligent, but Doug's answer was fair and I guess I too have to look at the lots more closely (tougher to do from a scan than in person).

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

the same type of restoration work done on Jay Miller's Keeler cabinet would not normally happen to a card that would eventually be graded......am I safe in saying that?

Thanks for your report Barry...........
Tom

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Posted By: MVSNYC

barry- well written...

it was a cool evening, great dialogue, pleasure meeting everyone.

we should try to do it more often.

Best-
Michael Sarno

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Posted By: barrysloate

Yes Michael, it was a nice group that seemed to get along and work together well. Frank emailed and said we should really try to get everyone together for a social evening or dinner, but dare I start a new thread without getting laughed out of town?

Tom- that is a good question and unfortunately I forgot about that issue so it never came up. I'm sure Doug would have answered it forthrightly but we'll have to wait for another opportunity to ask him.

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

that make you go hmmm.......

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Posted By: barrysloate

I take it that Tom doesn't believe an honest answer would have been forthcoming...perhaps he is correct, but I think Doug would have explained the reasoning behind it.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I have just received the following message from Doug Allen with regard to the Willie Keeler cabinet that was previously cited: to paraphrase, it is the policy of Mastro Auctions to send items out for restoration or cleaning if they are deemed to be pieces of memorabilia, such as vintage photography, and that this restoration will be disclosed. It is not the company's policy to send baseball cards out for restoration under any circumstances.

Since this may bring up some further questions, and because I am not in the position to speak for the company, Doug asks anyone to feel free to contact him on his cell at 630-336-6650. Thank you.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I think it was David who once mentioned out here that it is the norm for pictures and other pieces of art to be restored and that no one cries about it as we do with regard to baseball cards. (As a collector of antique posters, I do know this to be the case) What do you think are the reasons that we feel so much differently about baseball cards?

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

because grading companies won't grade a restored card anything but "Authentic". If the grading companies gave a numerical grade to restored cards it would become "okay" to do it.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Dan, you don't think that collectors felt that way about restored cards prior to the advent of third party grading?

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Posted By: barrysloate

A possible answer, but not necessarily the whole answer: in the case of vintage posters, because they are so large and brittle, it is a near certainty that they will need some kind of restoration, so it has become an accepted practice. With cards, they have generally survived over the years with nothing more than natural wear, so collectors expect them to remain as is. I know there is more to it, and certainly the advent of the slab has made card restoration taboo.

Another aspect of restoration, say with posters and large format photographs, is that it is important for their long term survival. Deacidifying brittle paper, using Japanese tissue to repair tears, and other practices will give posters a longer life; likewise, cleaning the oils and chemicals that are embedded in an albumen photograph will likewise prevent it from decaying over time.

All of this still begs the question of why cards can't be restored, but it is a start.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I'm not exactly sure Jeff, but I do know that many of the oldtimers used to trim their cards to fit into plastic holders and sheets....that I believe was a time when cards were collected for what they were....cards and not commodities. I don't think it would have been a problem to restore a card before the 1980s which is when I think the investment side of the hobby really kicked in.

edited to add: I think the grading companies hold the biggest sway in this hobby when it comes to what is accepted and not accepted....once they started slabbing postcards the prices of postcards shot up.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Barry, your points make sense: without restoration entire groups of 'art' might be lost, unlike baseball cards. And Dan, I agree as well. I wonder how much damn money the PSAs and SGCs of the world have cost all of us....

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

I don't know about that.

Throughout the early 90s, I refused to buy a single Goudey because I had heard and read stories about how people were rebuilding corners on 33 and 34 Goudeys. This was before grading had any hold over the marketplace.

As a kid in the late 70s and early 80s buying T206s, I was taught to measure them with a ruler to make sure they were the right size, because people used to cut them down to make them look better.

So I think it's been an issue longer than grading has been around, but I think it's more prevalent now that so many cards sell for huge money.

-Al

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Jeff:

It is real simple. Baseball cards are as different from a noteworthy painting as in the following anology.

It is real great that the Statue of Liberty has assumed an nice even green patina, because as we all know, that coating protects it from further deterioration and assures us that this historic gift remains the treasure which its offerer knew it would be (which is why the French selected the appropriate metal).

However, would you want your rare U.S. Cent from the 1700s to be similarly patinaed (in green)? Or Barry - is the past tense of "patina" = patinad? Or worse - is there no past tense? Yikes!

Don't worry if you do not understand this post. I do not either.

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

I didn't feel that an honest answer WOULDN'T be forthcoming. I've ALWAYS found Doug to be very forthcoming--especially given his responses to more than a few threads posted here. I just found it odd that that specific situation wasn't brought up by anyone in the meeting as I believe it was outlined in the thread about the meeting. I guess more of the people at that meeting were specifically geared towards cards that it didn't really become an issue.

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Posted By: Joe Jones

If cards were restored to look new or near mint, what would that do to the value of the "true survivor" cards? How would you determine which have been restored and which have survived?

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Posted By: barrysloate

Tom- it was an oversight and it never crossed my mind, and with ten people there (one actually asked to remain anonymous) you would have thought someone would think of it. But Doug is willing to discuss it and you can call him.

Gilbert- I just looked up "patina" and it is only a noun; and of course nouns don't have tenses.

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Posted By: Kevin

"One of the things we realize that is missing today is either a book or comprehensive article that can educate collectors more in this area"


newby here!

I understand an in-depth book is possibly in the making.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Hi Kevin- first off, welcome to the board!

Do you know of a specific project in the works that will
discuss the problems of card alteration? If so, would love to know about it.

I want to also add that each of the attendees at the meeting last night was given a copy of the latest issue of the SGC Collector Magazine (Winter 2007) and there is an excellent article, with large illustrations, of trimmed cards and the diagnostic points that need to be examined. Please get a hold of it, it's a great starting point for everyone.

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Posted By: peter chao

Barry, Guys

You participated in the meeting, was there any discussion by the grading companies about making a list of Counterfeited or Altered Cards available to the general public.

Peter

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Posted By: Dave

Barry S....if you get a chance please check your email sir.

Maybe next time ya'll could meet for breakfast....swap card alteration stories over some hashbrowns? ha ha

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Posted By: barrysloate

Peter- Doug actually asked Dave Forman a very interesting question, and that is would SGC consider putting some kind of indelible mark on every altered card that crosses their desk? Dave said of course he couldn't, because it is not his property.

As far as making a list, once the card is returned to the owner, how would you be able to track the card on the list once it is back in circulation?

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I'm not aware that vintage photo collectors are much more accepting of restoration. I think if
a large photo had a huge tear, it would be reasonable to repair the tear if the photo was going to
be displayed-- but think the average photo collector is against trimming and willy-nilly removing
the photographer's writing and stuff like that. Many collectors consider old photos historical artifacts
not items that should be manipulated for the sake of money.

I think something like a movie poster is more often restored because 1) The posters are fragile and often
need to be rebacked and repaired to prevent further damgage. A tear may become a larger tear with time. Movie
posters are usually on thin paper, not sturdy cardboard like with baseball cards. You might increase the tear
on a 1920 movie poster by simply carefully moving it from the closet to another room. 2) They are large and intended
to be displayed. If a poster is going to be displayed in the living room many won't want tears and
grease stains across it. This is different than a small baseball card stored in a box, and once in a while
looked at. Or even a card displayed on your office desk, where the individual card won't immediately catch
the eye of those who enter the room as a 3x2 Godzilla poster would. Many, even sports fans, might enter
your office several times before they consciously notice that baseball card next to your pens and your
calculator-- upon closer inspection, a card with a crease and dog ears that, if anything, give it charector.

I'm not a zealot about baseball cards restoration. If a collector owns a Mickey Mantle card with a 40 year old lime green
house paint drip on Mickey's nose, I appreceate the collector wishing to remove the drip. If a card is
nearly torn in half, I understand the owner wishing to have the card secured. If a kid scribbled in crayon
across the face of the card, I understand the card owner wishing to find a way to remove the crayon ... What
I am against are collectors altering a VgEx card to an artificial ExMt or higher simply to get more $$. As
with said photo collectors, I consider vintage baseball cards historical artifacts. In my opinion, if the only
reason to have an item restored is $$, it should not be restored.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Although it was nice to see Al and Manny and Mike and Dave and Frank again and to meet others in the hobby, I came away from our meeting a little disappointed.

No one really shared my belief that the hobby needs a collectors association and noone really shared my belief that although card restoration is an epidemic that anything should be done about it.

When I asked Doug to elaborate on Mastronet's views on taking creases out of cards I got a firm "no comment"--so apparently there was a rethinking of the answer that provided on Net54 earlier. Not that I am a huge customer off Mastronet but I did spend $20K in their last auction and thought that the issue deserved a comment.

It seems to me that the leading dealers have more or less banded together and are refusing to comment about
what they will do about taking creases out of cards.
That is their right but it is also the collectors right to know this.

A special thanks to Dave Forman who did his best to be as forthright as possible during the meeting.

For those of you who are happy this is apparently ending in failure --congrats--its a problem that I think everyone at the dinner agreed applies to ungraded cards, low-to-mid graded cards and high grade cards.

As one participant said to me after the meeting--Jim--its back to the Wild Wild West.

I do not know what I will do from here--probably nothing unless people who feel similar to the way I do want to push forward with something.

Jim

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Jim, thanks for your honesty.

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Posted By: JK

Someone above stated that Dave Foreman said he could not put some sort of mark on a card to show that it had passed sgc's eyes once before and that Dave responded that he could not do so because its not his card. This is really not correct. All any grading company would need to do is put in its service terms that by submitting a card, you consent to such a mark being placed on the card. I suspect that the reason no grading compnay has done so falls into one of three reasons:(1) technology (2) cost to the consumer or (3) it would cost them money - either due to people not submitting because they dont want to consent to such a "scarlet letter" being placed on their cards, or because it would greatly reduce the number of resubmissions.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I agree with Josh that if only one grading company marked an altered card and the others didn't, it would significantly hurt their business. And I do agree with Dave that you can't accept a card from someone and then take the liberty of marking it up.

Jim- I have some mixed feelings about your comments. I thought we had a positive meeting in that for two hours we had a brisk discussion of many of the problems the hobby faces regarding card alterations. But I never for one moment went into it thinking we would form a group that would have the power to clean things up. I am concerned too with what goes on, but a "vigilante" group of collectors and dealers probably won't work. If you insist that all dealers join some kind of organization, most of the ethical ones will, and the unethical ones won't.

I still think our best line of defense is the grading services. If they can't distinguish a trimmed card from a good one, then all is lost. Forming an organization is fine, and I would be happy to join, but since I do not alter cards my membership in it won't have that much of an impact.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Barry,

If the ethical ones do and the unethical ones do not then we win.

While I enjoyed the meeting, I also went into it with the idea that there was a next step to cleaning up the hobby.

Its unclear to me at this point what this next step is.

Jim

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Posted By: barrysloate

Well, this forum is the best place I can think of to kick this thing around. Does anybody have an idea how we as collectors and dealers can form an organization that would put an end to the work done by card doctors?

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Barry,

Too much division here. Some do not see it as everyone's battle and view it as the battle of the high grade collector.

Also there are the dealer apologists who will get on and attack me for trying to bring about positive change for the hobby.

As I think I said before, I would rather those who think that the widespread alteration of all types and grades of cards is a problem to e-mail me directly on where we go from here.

Jim

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Posted By: joe D.

The real reason the grading companies do not put a marking on cards is a simple one.....
that would completely eliminate their "grading is subjective" defense for all of their mistakes.

If you mark my card one way or another - that is an absolute.


Remember --- they all say they are offering their own 'subjective opinion'


You can't brand a card with a subjective opinion. The branding in its very nature takes away any future subjectivity / dispute / resolution a card owner may seek.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- I just want to say that I don't believe you will be attacked by anyone on this thread, and I suggest that this is the best place for a discussion, and as such, I request no personal attacks allowed here.

If this becomes a series of private emails then everybody will be kept out of the loop.

Have to run out now but we will continue this discussion.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- if dealers and collectors were to get together and form an organization, what would you expect them to do collectively to prevent altered cards from reaching the market?

What we realized from the meeting is that there are a fair number of disreputable people who spend their time working with sophisticated cutting tools, and many have probably taken courses in paper restoration. It would be nearly impossible to find them, because they work under the radar and we may not even know who they are.

If the cards they altered were being sold raw, it would be very difficult for collectors to protect themselves because their work is just too good. We saw from the samples Dave brought in that we can't always determine just by sight which cards are good and which ones aren't.

However, that is where the grading services come in. It is their job to examine cards closely, whether they are VG, EX, or NR MT/MT. The better they do their job, the better we are protected. If they are missing alterations and letting bad cards get into holders, we are truly in trouble.

With all that in mind, what goals would you hope a collectors' organization could accomplish?

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Barry,

I will respond privately in the next day or two--just do not feel like va 200-post thread where the usual suspects attack me.

Maybe with Leon's be nice thread they would not this time.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Leon- to facilitate this discussion publicly, would you agree to force anyone who goes into personal attack mode to sit in the corner with their face to the wall for the rest of the day (and no TV for a week!)?

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Posted By: leon

I doubt you will be personally attacked for wanting to better the hobby. I think the attacking comes when anyone is condescending to others....Also, I think it's a no win situation as far as an association goes. I would give the analogy of gun control. It mainly keeps guns away from honest people. The bad guys still have them. As Barry said if there is an association the good guys will join and the bad ones will continue doing what they do. I don't even want to get into the "what's acceptable to do to a card" debate. The majority of folks, on this board, don't think removing a pencil mark is wrong.....but some do...so it will never be 100% agreement on anything. I applaud you for trying to better the hobby but honestly I have had this sneaking suspicion the whole time that you are more worried about bad cards in PSA 8 holders, in your collection, than anything else. I am not saying I wouldn't feel the same way if I only collected high grade but still one has to consider motives when viewing things being done. Maybe you would have this same ambition if you were only collecting pr-vg but it would seem most of those folks aren't quite as concerned......I know I am not...Personally I don't care if every single PSA 8,9,10 were altered. It wouldn't affect me at all....Might the values of my cards go down? Sure, but again, I don't really do it for the money (and I am not saying that I don't like to see assets go up in value, of course I do)....best regards...

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

the nail more on the head with the high grade aspect of it. And....I don't think I've attacked you although I have shown a little too much tongue-in-cheek sarcasm and for that I do apologize.....

I think that the sheer # of people who collect in PSA8-10 is so much less than the overall graded or ungraded population that I think that's why there's less impetus to bring something like that up. Sadly, it's NOT just graded cards where there's a problem. It's memorabilia, photos, and many other areas. While I was not at the meeting, I doubt much was discussed in those areas--primarily because of the attendees.

I know you feel most of the alterations are being done on the mid-grade cards and not on the high grade cards but I just don't feel that's the case. I could be wrong, have been wrong in the past, will be wrong in the future for sure.

I do applaud you for trying though and I think getting guys like Doug and Dave to show up shows that there is some interest in working on some of the problems. Like Leon said though there is such a gray area between what the masses feel is acceptable (soaking, erasing pencil mark, 'laying' corner down) and what even the grading companies will accept. It's when we get into those really black and white issues of trimming, bleaching, stretching and pressing and other areas that most all people agree on that I think we should concentrate 80% of the efforts. Unfortunately, not a lot of people want to run with it. OR....the people who do this as a business do not want to run with it. The collectors ultimately are the people who are and will get hurt in the process.

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Posted By: T206Collector

First, this Board is a collector's alliance.

Second, Barry said, "I still think our best line of defense is the grading services. If they can't distinguish a trimmed card from a good one, then all is lost."

This brings me again to my point on all of this -- why would we need anything more than a reliable grading company, with the latest in detecting card doctoring skills and technology, and a money-backed guarantee? SGC provides this service and guarantee for me (and countless collectors) and if any of the cards that I have already had slabbed by SGC turn out to be doctored, countefeits, etc., I have a tremendous amount of confidence that SGC would make it right -- immediately -- in a manner in which I would be satisfied. I never would have dropped the serious amount of coin that I have put into baseball cards without that level of comfort.

If you buy raw cards or cards graded by a company without the money-backed guarantee, then you are assuming the risk that your cards have been tinkered with. And that's just a chance that every collector shouldn't take.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Leon,

Your sneaking suspicions are wrong and by letting your friend attack me out of the blue on multiple occasions it makes me not want to share my concerns with you--everyone at the dinner agreed that the card restoration affects all aspects of the hobby--I have said repeated times that I am interested in all aspects of the hobby and have invited everyone to our meeting.--ungraded, low grade., mid grade collectors but you and your buddies want to conveniently ignore that and say that Jim's just out for his own collection

I can cope fine in the wild wild west--but I thought it would be nice to do something positive for the hobby. If the ungraded and low grade collectors are happy with all the restoration being done to their cards fine--its better that if there is any interest in members of this board in cleaning up the hobby that it be done in a more supportive atmosphere.

Jim

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Posted By: Jerry Spillman

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Posted By: T206Collector

...and without speaking for all low to mid-grade collectors, I would not be "happy" with "restoration being done to [my] cards." I just happen to think that a collection which resides in an SGC holder is -- and for the foreseeable future will be -- the highest standard available to protect collectors.

I believe the reason that Jim has hit a wall on this one has more to do with the fact that the concerns that he has raised (a) can never be stopped with any degree of certainty; and (b) we are protected as best as currently possible by grading companies with money-backed guarantees. Given the collector's association here on Network54 to fill in any gaps -- which amounts to a 24/7/365 watching eye of the hobby -- I think we're doing a pretty good job as an industry of policing the bad things.

While striving to do more should not be discouraged, I cannot buy into the argument that the status quo is a failure.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

So Mastro's official response to removing creases is "No comment"?

I guess we know the answer to that question.

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Posted By: Jason L

regarding the meeting last week, does your disappointment stem from the level of apathy you are perceiving, or was everyone in agreement with you on the need for action, but lack of ideas/commitment on how to proceed? Did you expect to come out of the meeting with an action plan? perhaps the others weren't ready for that after only the first meeting?

To proceed, it may just take more than one meeting before proper mobilization, as problems need to be formally defined, and responsibilities need to be assigned to attack the various aspects of the larger task...just wondering, as it sounds like there were different expectations...was there any action plan at all that came out of it, even if it was just to agree to meet again?

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Posted By: JimCrandell

I appreciate Doug's effort to come and contribute but I was stunned that he refused to comment on the area of most interest from his famous post and the event that started this whole discussion.. I even asked him a second time but he said he did not want to talk about it that night.

There then was a conversation about that light creases were not very prevalent in high grade cards and I mentioned two of mine I bought ungraded raw in Mr Mint auctions that came back psa 4.

Dave thought he would be able to detect the longer light crease alteration and would either not grade the card or mark it down significantly if he found it.Dave then went on to say that crease removal was more preval;ent on low-to-mid grade cards and microtrimming on high end cards.

Jim