Negro League Postcard on E-Bay

[Jaybird]

Originally Posted by nsaddict

For the sake of accuracy the retraction total is now 93!

Phil, I don't have one bid retraction since I've been on ebay (2002). I can't see a good reason for retracting your bid. Can you enlighten us? Otherwise it seems like you're effing with auctions for profit or for sport. And 93 mistakes in entering the price isn't remotely feasible.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Since so many are interested in my e-bay bidding history and, more specifically, bid retraction history, let me explain what's going on so that everyone can rest assured that there is no profit motive or "secret strategy" behind it.

First of all, I can assure everyone that I have never retracted a bid on a baseball memorabilia item as these are the primary focus of my collecting interests and many times, significant sums of money are involved. Also, I do not take part in shilling or helping other sellers alter auction results and/or prices.

As a side little hobby, some of you may know that I have started dabbling in ice cream collectibles, which many times sell for a $1,00, $5,00, $10.00, etc. and often times, the cost of shipping exceeds the item price. In order to keep this facet of my collecting interest cost effective, I usually try to buy multiple e-bay items from the same seller to minimize the effect on shipping charges. While doing this, many times I lose out on the one or two items that were my main interest and decide that I would rather pass on the remaining items. These situations account for all of my bid retractions except for a couple of times where I entered wrong amounts and go back and make the corrections immediately.

My practice is probably not the best way of handling the scenario and, in the future, I might just use the "watched items" feature more extensively when interested in multiple items from the same seller.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

Since so many are interested in my e-bay bidding history and, more specifically, bid retraction history, let me explain what's going on so that everyone can rest assured that there is no profit motive or "secret strategy" behind it.

First of all, I can assure everyone that I have never retracted a bid on a baseball memorabilia item as these are the primary focus of my collecting interests and many times, significant sums of money are involved. Also, I do not take part in shilling or helping other sellers alter auction results and/or prices.

As a side little hobby, some of you may know that I have started dabbling in ice cream collectibles, which many times sell for a $1,00, $5,00, $10.00, etc. and often times, the cost of shipping exceeds the item price. In order to keep this facet of my collecting interest cost effective, I usually try to buy multiple e-bay items from the same seller to minimize the effect on shipping charges. While doing this, many times I lose out on the one or two items that were my main interest and decide that I would rather pass on the remaining items. These situations account for all of my bid retractions except for a couple of times where I entered wrong amounts and go back and make the corrections immediately.

My practice is probably not the best way of handling the scenario and, in the future, I might just use the "watched items" feature more extensively when interested in multiple items from the same seller.

Wow...that is not cool. I make a good portion of my living on ebay (I also own a vintage toy store) and bidders like that really piss me off. Your bid may make the next bidder move on if it's an item that normally only sells for the opening price.

Out of curiosity what excuse do you give when you retract your bid? Because I've never heard the "I got outbid on your other auction and I was trying to bundle to save on shipping" excuse.

[Bicem]

What do Ben and Jerry's rookies go for?

Thanks for explaining Phil.

[Spartan]

I think I'm throwing this comment out unncessarily or just didn't bother carefully reading all the posts on the bid history... but it's not like the item bid consistently up to $4050. You usually see the enormous jump when two people SNIPE bid and SOMEBODY gets 'hung' ... typically may also involve the seller not getting paid, by either bidder... and it gets relisted. Not saying that either bidder here would not be good for payment, but it sure would have been nice had the auction ended for them below $2000, which is what it was on pace to do. Nothing worse than a last second $2,500 BUMP

[Runscott]

If Phil is buying from the guys he is retracting bids from, and every single one of them has been contacred and is okay with it, I don't see the damage.
I have never had anyone contact me to explain a retraction, and when I spot one I normally put them on my blocked bidder list.

Sent from my SM-G730V using Tapatalk

[Fred]

Vomit....

[Fred]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-Early-1...p2047675.l2557

[Shoeless Moe]

cough: "bullsh-t"

[ElCabron]

I'm not a fan of all the bid retractions, but I think it's important to point out that nothing like that happened for this particular auction. All of the bids were real. In fact, Phil has said that he only does that for the ice cream collectibles and not baseball items. Phil started the thread, so that's the only reason all of this came up in the first place, but before he gets completely thrown under the bus for his questionable eBay bidding tactics, keep in mind that we're not talking about shill bidding or anything even close to rising to that level. Is it okay? Not in my opinion. But again, I don't buy or sell ice cream memorabilia. On the ice cream memorabilia forum, everyone can be pissed. But I've done numerous deals with Phil and not one has been the least bit shady or questionable. If any other board members have had negative dealings with him or know of him retracting bids on baseball cards or memorabilia, by all means let us know. But he already explained why he does it, and, more importantly, that he doesn't do it on the stuff that relates to this forum. Don't mistake this for me condoning bid retractions because I've never done it and I don't think it's okay to do. But half of the guys now judging Phil for retracting some bids on ice cream memorabilia probably still bid with Legendary or do business with guys like JP Cohen and other quality characters within the hobby.

-Ryan

[h2oya311]

+1

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by ElCabron

Don't mistake this for me condoning bid retractions because I've never done it and I don't think it's okay to do. But half of the guys now judging Phil for retracting some bids on ice cream memorabilia probably still bid with Legendary or do business with guys like JP Cohen and other quality characters within the hobby.

-Ryan

My guess is that anyone who hasn't been banned by a large AH is still bidding with them any time they see something they 'need'. And the banned ones are having someone else bid for them.

[D. Bergin]

Sorry, but I wonder if all the Ice Cream memorabilia collectors are on some forum right now going to each other..."oh, I retract bids all the time, but not on our beloved Ice Cream memorabilia, I only stick it to those Sports guys every chance I get"

[Exhibitman]

Well put, Ryan!

[MikeGarcia]

..this little post is up to sixty-three replies ; is there a popcorn memorabilia forum ...

[Jaybird]

Agreed.

Are these 1928 Yuenglings ice cream related items?

For the record I have 1 bid retraction for a seller not disclosing he was out of country. Don't understand 93, on 1,00, 5,00, or 10,00 dollar items when you're bidding 4K on something that may not be the real deal.

Am I the only one who is suspicious that the corner missing may indicate the printer of the Postcard?

Shout me down if need be....

[bcbgcbrcb]

Ty:

I think the postcard is real, no indication that it is not. I wouldn't bid/spend that kind of money if it wasn't. I'm sure the buyer feels the same way that I do.

As far as the disparity in my bids on baseball items as compared to ice cream collectibles, it pretty much comes down to the fact that I don't have the kind of money to make regular purchases of Negro League Baseball items (not to mention the supply would not be nearly enough either). In order to get my daily/weekly fix of buying some type of collectible, the small ice cream items work nicely for me. Otherwise, I might have to go with T206's............

.... well I don't want you to suffer with t206's Phil. In fact please no....

If the buyer is satisfied, there is no reason to complain. I just thought it was remarkable how there is no identifiable studio mark on the photo, and of course no correspondence or date stamp on the back. These were usually sent out to promote a team, not sold at a local store and kept in inventory.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by pariah1107

.... well I don't want you to suffer with t206's Phil. In fact please no....

If the buyer is satisfied, there is no reason to complain. I just thought it was remarkable how there is no identifiable studio mark on the photo, and of course no correspondence or date stamp on the back. These were usually sent out to promote a team, not sold at a local store and kept in inventory.

I have thousands of real photo postcards that were never sent. Being postmarked or not has no bearing at all on whether it is real or not. And just looking at the photos in the auction I can tell you I think this is 100% authentic.

Of the thousands of PC's how many can you identify by photographer, place, or player, and by association year? I'd imagine quite a few.

Here is a PC of players who are plausibly identifiable with no reference to photographer or place, other than their uniform, Cuban Stars. Photo circa. 1922-25 seems appropriate, PC printing ?.

[ElCabron]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

I have thousands of real photo postcards that were never sent. Being postmarked or not has no bearing at all on whether it is real or not. And just looking at the photos in the auction I can tell you I think this is 100% authentic.

I agree. Plus, it is completely incorrect that these were usually sent out to promote a team. Much later, that was true about some PRINTED postcards that would have advertising on the reverse, either printed or stamped onto it. This is a real photo postcard, not a printed postcard.

-Ryan

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by ElCabron

I agree. Plus, it is completely incorrect that these were usually sent out to promote a team. Much later, that was true about some PRINTED postcards that would have advertising on the reverse, either printed or stamped onto it. This is a real photo postcard, not a printed postcard.

-Ryan

I have never seen a rppc of a team that was used as a promotional item by the team. I do have one Nebraska Indians team real photo postcard that I have seen multiples of, but I believe it was made to sell in the town where the team once played. And I have seen three of them all from the same seller who resided in Hartford, Wisconsin.



This is more representative of a promotional postcard (printed not real photo)

The original auction stated 1901-07 divided back, correct? This was determined to be incorrect by net54, and the years were closer to the 1920's with an undivided back. A fact initially questioned by a member and dismissed.

The auction ended under such questionable circumstances that a bidder needed to draw our attention to it. Why? This could have been made like any other transaction without scrutiny.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by pariah1107

The original auction stated 1901-07 divided back, correct? This was determined to be incorrect by net54, and the years were closer to the 1920's with an undivided back. A fact initially questioned by a member and dismissed.

The auction ended under such questionable circumstances that a bidder needed to draw our attention to it. Why? This could have been made like any other transaction without scrutiny.

This postcard IS a divided back...on one side at the top it states "Correspondence" and the other side it states "Address"...that makes it a divided back postcard. Before 1908 you could only write the address on the reverse side of a postcard...all correspondence had to be on the front of the card.

What questionable circumstance did this auction end under?

What do you mean? Everything about the auction is questionable; a rare PC with no efforts to authenticate it goes up for sale on a knowingly unethical website without tangible evidence from experts. UH, yeah, I'll buy it.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by pariah1107

What do you mean? Everything about the auction is questionable; a rare PC with no efforts to authenticate it goes up for sale on a knowingly unethical website without tangible questions from experts. UH, yeah, I'll buy it.

Ummm....it's ebay, people list stuff all the time that they don't know what they have. I looked at the rest of this seller's items and it appears he sells a wide range of antique items, and nothing related to baseball. What effort should an antique dealer go to to authenticate a postcard that he likely had no clue whatsoever that it would sell for 4 figures? Does the seller even know there are authentication services for baseball postcards? They probably wouldn't have even known what they had beyond a baseball team postcard if they didn't google the name on the jerseys.

[ElCabron]

Originally Posted by pariah1107

What do you mean? Everything about the auction is questionable; a rare PC with no efforts to authenticate it goes up for sale on a knowingly unethical website without tangible questions from experts. UH, yeah, I'll buy it.

What in the world are you talking about??? The seller didn't know what he had. He lucked out because what he had was awesome. And valuable. Why would he consider, or even know about authentication? And why does every good item need to be authenticated? Some of us are pretty good at telling if something's authentic without a third party telling us so. Is the "knowingly unethical website" that you are talking about eBay? So you think everything on eBay is fake? I don't get it. And what are tangible questions from experts?

Also, who are you?

-Ryan

[Bicem]

Stick to '59 Topps Ty.

Didn't know how many feathers that would ruffle.... Thank you for having a pulse.

I am nobody.

[Fred]

As Tiny Tim said in A Christmas Carol: "God bless Us, Every One!"

[sbfinley]

Originally Posted by pariah1107

What do you mean? Everything about the auction is questionable; a rare PC with no efforts to authenticate it goes up for sale on a knowingly unethical website without tangible evidence from experts. UH, yeah, I'll buy it.

There were a lot more eyes hawking that PC than the handful of bidders. I don't really collect Negro League or Cuban baseball items in general, but I do make random weekly checks for search terms like "antique baseball", "baseball cabinet", or "Cuban Baseball" as I suspect many here do just to see what pops up. There were probably at least 50-75 collectors hoping it slipped through the cracks (me included) and could be nabbed cheap. Like Dan said a quick look of the sellers other items shows he deals in run of the mill antiques and being bases in Conn. he item likely filtered out of the the city (where the team was based) into his hands.

[packs]

Not sure what makes the corner tear suspicious. Both of the top corners are deeply creased with the top left one nearly falling off. I think it's safe to assume the bottom corner was creased into oblivion and fell off.

[joshleland]

I like this post on many levels

I knew exactly what this postcard was when I saw it a few days ago because this is the second one I have seen
The other one was in beautiful condition and I bought it down in Cuba from a well known (at least down there) collector/dealer
I was down there with the great Luis Munoz, the true dean of Cuban baseball memorabilia
Luis is unique in terms of not just knowing the sport and the stuff, that he has owned most of it, but also because he was the first and started us all in this very unique, mysterious and fascinating field
I have known many of the other followers of this field quite well such as Jeff Eastland and Yuyo Ruiz
But apart from Luis Munoz I respect greatly Ryan Cristoff (who really knows his stuff and was the first to promote it which has been of great benefit
There will never be another Richard Merkin who bought pretty much everything Luis showed him
Richard was one of my closest friends and legitimately a mentor to me
Boy do we all miss Merkin, we were so lucky to have him in our hobby
But I still have the hat he wore on the cover of the Beatles Sgt. Peppers album to remember him by
I sold him the best RPPC of all, the Lelands Giants team postcard with Rube Foster

I remember Luis getting a little crazy when he saw the Cuban stars piece
I knew it was Dihigo but he said he was a rookie right away
He did not specify 1922 or 1923 but he said "first couple of years" as it did not matter
We're not talking robin yount here
Ryan is right on target with his evaluation and the way he approaches it
He is basing it on the look of Dihigo and he is a baby here
Luis evaluated it the exact same way
Kudos to you Ryan

After I bought it I recall Luis wanting to buy it from me but I don't recall if I let him have it or not
Probably yes
I hope so because if not it was taken along with all my other stuff by U.S. Customs on the way back home
That is another story for another time
The cards ultimate demise would have to have been burned along with all the cigars and other things they grab
I had no cigars but they view artifacts like these the same way
A sad but true fact, that is hopefully being changed as we speak

Anyway, I see absolutely nothing nefarious going on here in the bidding
This was a guy who had no idea what he had but it didn't matter because the correct search words were there and ultimately the right people saw it
And I don't believe anyone got "caught" bidding $4000+
They simply wanted it badly and that is what they were willing to pay
Look at what negro league pieces bring sometimes and these are many of the same people collecting Cuban baseball
I have put in some pretty crazy numbers on eBay when I really want something and I don't recall regretting it much in the long term
You can't go to the store and buy Cuban baseball postcards at least not any I know of
Except Richard Merkin walked in off the street to my office and bought that Lelands Giants postcard right off my desk
But that was a different "store" and a different era
Things will never be the same

As for RPPC's being promotional or not, you are looking at it the wrong way
This was merely a format, another choice in choosing what type of photo you got from the photographer
Through the years the have been CDV's, cabinets, mounted, and all different sizes
Real photo postcards were just another choice, another format to use
Interestingly, the Cuban collectors and dealers up until a few years ago didn't even realize the huge premium Americans were willing to pay for postcard backs
Basically I and others would pay the same for blank back photos as for these infinitely more desirable RPPC's
Jackpot
I remember going over an untold number of postcard sized baseball photos saying a little prayer each time I turned them over hoping to see a postcard back
And btw rarely were they ever posted and I do not believe the photographers cartouche was in the bottom right corner
Besides it does not look like it would have been
It's just not fancy enough, doesn't have the look of an more expensive studio piece
And the guy who sold me the Dihigo rookie over the course of the relationship realized this not so secret trade secret eventually but not before I got the Cuban Stars on that fateful balmy Havana afternoon
But it didn't really matter
It could also have been autographed by the team and Fidel and Che and he still would not have fully appreciated it

Interestingly, the one point rarely discussed in this thread is the condition
When I put my meager snipe bid of 888$ the missing corner played a major role for me
But I was wrong
Not because I personally did not like the corner missing but not realizing that others would see past it and rightfully so
Whoever said that it did not matter much (Ryan?) was spot on
In the greatest things where there are no other options it shouldn't matter
And traditionally condition has never played as anywhere near as major a role as in the Cuban material
Cuban stuff is almost never in good condition
The bugs eat those little holes in the paper
The weather is a killer, water damaging almost everything somewhat
And most cubans did not take care of their stuff because of cultural reasons
land
So we feel lucky to have in any condition
It shows great sophistication for collectors to realize all this and not care so much about condition
This thread shows changes and I feel progress in our hobby and maps out the future somewhat for those willing to open their eyes and listen
That makes sense right?

Have a happy holiday everyone and yes my auction is up on the net as we speak
Some great stuff there
Feel free to email me directly if you have any questions about anything
Also catalogues are out soon
Free catalogues to all net54 members as always
Just email me and I'll take care of it
Jevans@optonline.net

Sincerely

Joshua Leland Evans
Chairman
Lelands.com
Since 1969

[h2oya311]

Thanks Josh -

I sure hope another still exists! I'm holding out hope that I didn't miss my one opportunity to land such a great card!!

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by joshleland

I like this post on many levels

I knew exactly what this postcard was when I saw it a few days ago because this is the second one I have seen
The other one was in beautiful condition and I bought it down in Cuba from a well known (at least down there) collector/dealer
I was down there with the great Luis Munoz, the true dean of Cuban baseball memorabilia
Luis is unique in terms of not just knowing the sport and the stuff, that he has owned most of it, but also because he was the first and started us all in this very unique, mysterious and fascinating field
I have known many of the other followers of this field quite well such as Jeff Eastland and Yuyo Ruiz
But apart from Luis Munoz I respect greatly Ryan Cristoff (who really knows his stuff and was the first to promote it which has been of great benefit
There will never be another Richard Merkin who bought pretty much everything Luis showed him
Richard was one of my closest friends and legitimately a mentor to me
Boy do we all miss Merkin, we were so lucky to have him in our hobby
But I still have the hat he wore on the cover of the Beatles Sgt. Peppers album to remember him by
I sold him the best RPPC of all, the Lelands Giants team postcard with Rube Foster

I remember Luis getting a little crazy when he saw the Cuban stars piece
I knew it was Dihigo but he said he was a rookie right away
He did not specify 1922 or 1923 but he said "first couple of years" as it did not matter
We're not talking robin yount here
Ryan is right on target with his evaluation and the way he approaches it
He is basing it on the look of Dihigo and he is a baby here
Luis evaluated it the exact same way
Kudos to you Ryan

After I bought it I recall Luis wanting to buy it from me but I don't recall if I let him have it or not
Probably yes
I hope so because if not it was taken along with all my other stuff by U.S. Customs on the way back home
That is another story for another time
The cards ultimate demise would have to have been burned along with all the cigars and other things they grab
I had no cigars but they view artifacts like these the same way
A sad but true fact, that is hopefully being changed as we speak

Anyway, I see absolutely nothing nefarious going on here in the bidding
This was a guy who had no idea what he had but it didn't matter because the correct search words were there and ultimately the right people saw it
And I don't believe anyone got "caught" bidding $4000+
They simply wanted it badly and that is what they were willing to pay
Look at what negro league pieces bring sometimes and these are many of the same people collecting Cuban baseball
I have put in some pretty crazy numbers on eBay when I really want something and I don't recall regretting it much in the long term
You can't go to the store and buy Cuban baseball postcards at least not any I know of
Except Richard Merkin walked in off the street to my office and bought that Lelands Giants postcard right off my desk
But that was a different "store" and a different era
Things will never be the same

As for RPPC's being promotional or not, you are looking at it the wrong way
This was merely a format, another choice in choosing what type of photo you got from the photographer
Through the years the have been CDV's, cabinets, mounted, and all different sizes
Real photo postcards were just another choice, another format to use
Interestingly, the Cuban collectors and dealers up until a few years ago didn't even realize the huge premium Americans were willing to pay for postcard backs
Basically I and others would pay the same for blank back photos as for these infinitely more desirable RPPC's
Jackpot
I remember going over an untold number of postcard sized baseball photos saying a little prayer each time I turned them over hoping to see a postcard back
And btw rarely were they ever posted and I do not believe the photographers cartouche was in the bottom right corner
Besides it does not look like it would have been
It's just not fancy enough, doesn't have the look of an more expensive studio piece
And the guy who sold me the Dihigo rookie over the course of the relationship realized this not so secret trade secret eventually but not before I got the Cuban Stars on that fateful balmy Havana afternoon
But it didn't really matter
It could also have been autographed by the team and Fidel and Che and he still would not have fully appreciated it

Interestingly, the one point rarely discussed in this thread is the condition
When I put my meager snipe bid of 888$ the missing corner played a major role for me
But I was wrong
Not because I personally did not like the corner missing but not realizing that others would see past it and rightfully so
Whoever said that it did not matter much (Ryan?) was spot on
In the greatest things where there are no other options it shouldn't matter
And traditionally condition has never played as anywhere near as major a role as in the Cuban material
Cuban stuff is almost never in good condition
The bugs eat those little holes in the paper
The weather is a killer, water damaging almost everything somewhat
And most cubans did not take care of their stuff because of cultural reasons
land
So we feel lucky to have in any condition
It shows great sophistication for collectors to realize all this and not care so much about condition
This thread shows changes and I feel progress in our hobby and maps out the future somewhat for those willing to open their eyes and listen
That makes sense right?

Have a happy holiday everyone and yes my auction is up on the net as we speak
Some great stuff there
Feel free to email me directly if you have any questions about anything
Also catalogues are out soon
Free catalogues to all net54 members as always
Just email me and I'll take care of it
Jevans@optonline.net

Sincerely

Joshua Leland Evans
Chairman
Lelands.com
Since 1969

Brilliant post.

[joeadcock]

Nice post Joshua

[baseball tourist]

Interesting post Josh. Re the loss of the items purchased. -Too bad that you didn't drive up to and then fly out of Toronto (or Montreal) as many of the Americans I met while in Cuba on various trips did. The Cuban authorities wouldn't stamp their passports but instead would issue an insert page that could be discarded once off Cuban soil. Each brought back cigars etc and then mailed them back to themselves from Canada (sometimes sending the cigar bands separately from the cigars). Then driving across the boarder to Detroit, NYC etc.

Please don't judge me as promoting this behaviour as I am just reporting what I saw repeated many times. I certainly wouldn't have an issue personally as I believe the embargo to be outdated and unfortunate.

[joshleland]

Thanks for your kind words

Chris, it wouldn't have mattered
I went through the Dominican Republic which is pretty much the same
The problem was my style, I was just too visible
People got jealous and I became a pawn in the jealous struggle between two of the biggest Cuban collectibles dealers
Sounds ridiculous but it's true
I had been there before in the olden days with Mastro, Lifson, and Rosen so took in stride
But those guys aren't going to shoot you

I'm talking about the Cubans

[Jeffrompa]

Couldn't agree more . The prices of some of the RPPC's has really skyrocketed in the last five years .