1910 COUPON cards vs POLAR BEAR No-Prints

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

In the recent thread "the scarcity of T206 So. Lgers" we also ventured into POLAR BEAR's (quite appropriate, given the "ice age"
we are having). Revisting the No-Print Polar Bear (PB) list, I have noticed that the majority of the 48 Major Leaguers depicted in
the 1910 Coupon's (issued concurrently with the T206 - 350 Series) are PB No-Prints.

Furthermore, there is a strong relationship between these PB No-Prints and the aforementioned "Quintuplicate" back design.......
illustrated here. At least 36 Subjects that were not printed with PB backs were printed with at least four (if not all 5) AMERICAN
BEAUTY, BROAD LEAF, COUPON, CYCLE, and DRUM backs.


Updated (12/22/08)....POLAR BEAR Major League NO-PRINTS with annotated Coupon cards.

Abstein
* Becker
* Bender (trees)
Geo. Brown (Washington)
Burns
* Byrne
* Campbell
* Charles
Collins (A's)
* Cree
Dahlen (Brooklyn)
Demmitt (New York)
Dineen
* Donovan (throw)
* Doolan (fielding)
* Dubuc
* Dunn (Brooklyn)
Elberfeld (portrait-Wash)
Fiene (throw)
* Fletcher
* Hartsel
* Hoffman (St Louis)
* Howell (portrait)
* Huggins (portrait)
* Huggins (hands/mouth)
* Hunter
* Killian (portrait)
* Knabe
* Lennox
* Marquard (portrait)
* Marshall
McAleese
* McBride
McCormick
* McElveen
* McIntyre (Detroit)
* Mitchell (Cinci)
* Mowery
* Myers (bat)
* Myers (fielding
O'Hara (NY)
* Paskert
* Rhoades (hands/chest)
* Rossman
* Schmidt (portrait)
* Starr
Stephens
* Street (portrait)
* Summers
* Sweeney (Boston)
* Thomas
* Wilson
Zimmerman

NOTE....* Subjects that are in the 1910 COUPON set = 39

Confirmed POLAR BEAR Subjects that are in this Coupon set = 9

Engle
LaPorte
Willett

and the Six Super-Prints....which of course would have PB backs

Chance (yellow portrait)
Chase (blue portrait)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Evers (bat-yellow sky)
Mathewson (dark cap)


Given that the AMERICAN BEAUTY, BROAD LEAF, COUPON, CYCLE, and DRUM backs were issued around the Summer of 1910,
what can we conclude regarding their linkage to the PB No-Prints with respect to a timeline ?

And, of course if any one can confirm any of the above listed PB No-Prints with PB backs, by all means please post you input
here ?


TED Z

I want to thank BRIAN W for alluding to a linkage between PB No-Prints and the A-B-C-D backs.

[Archive]

Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Ted,
Nice job.
I would never send you on a snipe hunt.... Or a wild goose chase. I wanted to help, but haven't had the time lately.
Be well Brian

PS I'll chime in when I can....

PS 2 Thank Jamie, he did all of the heavy lifting....

[Archive]

Posted By: J Hull

To Ted, Brian, or anyone,

This maybe is an easy question, but where does the 1910 date for the Coupon Type 1's come from?

A VERY quick look through my notes shows that these players did not play a single game in 1910 for the team that they were pictured with for the 350 series of T206s. The images and team captions on Coupon Type 1's and T206s are identical, correct? So what leads us to believe that 1910 is right even though more than a quarter of the team designations in the set would be wrong?

AL & NL
Rossman
Byrne
Mowrey
Charles
Huggins
Starr
Marshall
Rhoades
Dubuc
Dunn
Campbell

Southern League
Lentz
Carey
Cranston
Thornton
Persons
Rockenfeld


Jamie

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

They don't match up because Coupons aren't T206 they are T213-1, as they have been for 70 years.......(predictable from me)....best regards

[Archive]

Posted By: Jon Canfield

Leon,

Regardless if they have been mistakenly labeled as T-213 Type 1's for the last 70 years, or were correctly classified as T-206's, it wouldn't affect Jamie's point that the date may be incorrectly applied. The logical answer would be that when Burdick misidentified Coupon's as a separate set, he also misidentified the date!

Just busting on ya...

Happy holidays,
Jon


======================================
For the premier online souce of information on baseball-related cigarette packs, visit http://www.baseballandtobacco.com

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Bobby Byrne played for St Louis till 8/19/09

Billy Campbell's Major League (ML) career ends 8/23/09

Ray "Chappy" Charles ML career ends 5/28/10

Joe Dunn's ML career ends 9/26/09

Miller Huggins is with Cinci till Feb 1910

Doc Marshall's ML career ends 10/7/09

Claude Rossman ML career ends 9/3/09


These are the players I am familiar with. We could look up the others you have listed. But, given Scot Reader's release
date of early 1910 for the 350-only Series cards, I think we can conclude that these COUPON cards were issued some
time in the Spring/Summer of 1910.

I believe this is reinforced by the common back design of the Coupon's as illustrated in my "Quintuplicate" theory that
these (A-B-C-D) brands' back design were drawn by the same artist and were issued within months of each other.
The release date of the A-brand (American Beauty) is documented to be in April 1910.


But, I can understand if you feel (as Leon does) that the Coupon's are not in the T206 "family", then they should not
be compared as I did here.

I firmly believe that these cards should be identified along with the other T-brands in the T206 set.


TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: peter ullman

Nice work, Ted...so maybe the coupons were some of the 1st t206's issues late 09...early 2010.

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

Why don't we start renaming all of Burdick's mistakes? There are plenty of them.....I am just being a contrarian.....It's all fun and I certainly understand the argument of them being T206's.....Just as we don't rewrite the English language and all of it's errors I don't think we redo the ACC...but that is just me and I know there is a persuasive argument on the other side....even more so than incorrectly labeled Derby cards ....

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I fully realize you are knowledgeable on these T213's. For the benefit of others who are not so familiar,
I have displayed them.

If you track post divestiture ATC (circa 1911-16) cards, they have the characteristic BLUE ink captions.
All T206 cards are identified by their BROWN ink captions, as does the 1910 Coupon (ACC T213-1) card.
Furthermore, it is intuitively obvious that the 1910 Coupon was designed by American Lithographic when
they were creating the series of Am.Bty, Broad Leaf, Cycle, and Drum cards (as shown in lower scan) by
the identical artwork.


..........1910 Coupon..................T213-2......................T213-3




Leon (and others), I could present more stuff to try and convince you. But, I'm afraid that I will just bore you.
So, I don't think I can convince you; although, I have demonstrated some powerful arguments in favor of my
case. However, you have not given me anything, otherwise, to dissuade me.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: J Hull

Well, whether they're T206s or a separate issue, the question still stands why it's been decided they were issued in 1910. I'm open to it being possible, I just haven't heard a good reason for it yet. It seems to me there's two possibilities.

1) T213-1's are actually a 1909 issue. Which would mean all team captions found on T213-1's would coincide with the player pictured actually being with that team at the time the cards were made.

2) The Coupon release simply reused an old batch of art/printing plates that were out of date at the time of production.

If they did use the old art, why? And, of course, to circle back to the topic of Ted's first post, does it connect in any way to the T206 timeline?


Ted, here's the rest of the data for the players I listed before:

Byrne T206/T213 = St. Louis National. 1910 = Pittsburgh (NL)
Campbell T206/T213 = Cincinnati. 1910 = Kansas City (American Association)
Charles T206/T213 = St. Louis National. 1910 = Cincinnati (NL)
Dubuc T206/T213 = Cincinnati. 1910 = Buffalo & Montreal (Eastern League)
Dunn T206/T213 = Brooklyn. 1910 = Mobile (Southern League)
Huggins T206/T213 = Cincinnati. 1910 = St. Louis (NL)
Marshall T206/T213 = Brooklyn. 1910 = Milwaukee (American Association)
Mowrey T206/T213 = Cincinnati. 1910 = St. Louis (NL)
Rhoades T206/T213 = Cleveland. 1910 = Retired.
Rossman T206/T213 = Detroit. 1910 = Columbus (American Association)
Starr T206/T213 = Boston National. 1910 = Buffalo (Eastern League)

Carey T206/T213 = Memphis. 1910 = Did not play.
Cranston T206/T213 = Memphis. 1910 = Kansas City (American Association) & Denver (Western League)
Lentz T206/T213 = Little Rock. 1910 = Wheeling (Central League) & East Liverpool (Ohio-Pennsylvania League)
Persons T206/T213 = Montgomery. 1910 = Did not play.
Rockenfeld T206/T213 = Montgomery. 1910 = Tacoma (Northwestern League)
Thornton T206/T213 = Mobile. 1910 = Greenwood (Cotton States League)

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Initially, I posted this thread in order to try and establish some kind of a timeline for the 1st POLAR
BEAR (PB) release. And, I was hoping to spark some discussion on this; however, the T213 contro-
versy has once again surfaced....and, any meaningful thought-provoking discussion is blunted.

Anyhow, Scot Reader and I have wondered why Demmitt and O'Hara (NY versions) were not printed
with the PB backs. Yet, their St Louis versions only exist with PB backs. I think the following informa-
tion may explain this, and at the same time establish an initial PB release date for the 350-only Series.

Both Demmitt and O'Hara started their careers with their respective NY teams in April 1909.
After, both having played OF for a better part of the 1909 season, they were both traded
to their respective St. Louis teams.
They started the 1910 season with their St Louis teams; but, by May 1910 they both were
sent down to the Eastern League. Demmitt to Montreal and O'Hara to Toronto.

Therefore, it's my conclusion that the very 1st printing of the PB cards ocurred in a narrow window,
no earlier than the start of the Spring season in 1910....and, was a very limited production run.
Subsequently, PB production runs were much larger when American Litho. started cranking out the
460 version of the 350/460 Series and the 460-only Series cards.


Jamie you stated.......

"T213-1's are actually a 1909 issue. Which would mean all team captions found on T213-1's would
coincide with the player pictured actually being with that team at the time the cards were made."

I cannot agree that this 1st issue of the Coupon series were issued prior to 1910. Moreso than any
player's team dating, the T-brand's back artwork tells us approximately when certain cards were
issued.
I have tried to emphasize this with my "quintuplicate" illustration; however, I guess it is not as con-
vincing to some, as I'd like it to be.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Ted,
Give me a bit more time.... I'm working on something that might make you happy.... Be well Brian


PS I wish I had your time and energy young man...

[Archive]

Posted By: J Hull

Hi Ted.

Your pointing out the similarities in the back designs is the best evidence I've seen. I agree that there's definitely a connection between the ABCD backs and Coupon backs. I'm just not sure how to account for it.



The Demmitt and O'Hara St. Louis cards are interesting. They're exemplary cases of ATC/ALC "updating" their card sets when a player changed teams. There are many other such examples throughout T206 cards. Which is why I scratch my head at the possibility that they released a set of cards with more than a quarter of them showing guys playing for the wrong teams.



Jamie

P.S. Brian, you keep teasing us...

[Archive]

Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Jamie,
Read your email.... I'm not teasing....Just to damn busy.

Talk to you soon. Be well Brian

[Archive]

Posted By: Scot

Ted,

I have been watching this thread closely, but I have not posted (until now) as I have nothing very insightful to add.

I believe you are correct that Polar Bears are more prevalent with 350/460 and 460-only subjects than with 350-only subjects--although I would have to look at my survey data to verify.

It is also apparent that at least two "traded" subjects--Kleinow (Boston) and Smith (Chicago and Boston)--are particularly common with Polar Bear.

Not sure how this all fits together.

Have a great holiday season.

Scot

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

JAMIE H

Overall, it appears that the T206 designers kept up with the trades, retirements, and caption corrections
of the prominent players (e.g., George Brown(e), Lundgren, Magie, Frank Smith).
And, the New York players....
Demmitt, Joe Doyle, Dahlen, Donlin, Elberfeld, Kleinow, and O'Hara. This latter group playing in NYC where
Amer. Litho. (ALC) was based; therefore, updating their changes sooner than others.

I can understand your curiosity as to why a lot of the players you listed didn't have 2nd cards reflecting
their changes. One factor I've noticed regarding guys like Byrne, Campbell, Charles, Rossman, etc. is that
they were not printed on many of the various T-brand backs, that other 350-only cards are found with. I
would say that there just was too many trades going on to keep track of. So, as I said, ALC was quite se-
lective in who they chose to print a "traded" card of.

Yes, as you said Demmitt and O'Hara are the best examples. Here are their subsequent T-cards when they
were playing in the Eastern League.






Wishing you a very Merry Christmas


TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

What are your thoughts on my timeline explanation for the initial POLAR BEAR release.......

"Demmitt and O'Hara (NY versions) were not printed with the PB backs. Yet, their St Louis
versions only exist with PB backs. I think the following information may explain this, and at
the same time establish an initial PB release date for the 350-only Series.

Both Demmitt and O'Hara started their careers with their respective NY teams in April 1909.
Upon both having played the OF for a better part of the 1909 season, they were traded to
their respective St. Louis teams.
They started the 1910 season with their St Louis teams; but, by May 1910 they both were
sent down to the Eastern League. Demmitt to Montreal and O'Hara to Toronto.

Therefore, it's my conclusion that the very 1st printing of the PB cards occurred in a narrow
window, no earlier than the start of the Spring season in 1910."

This 1st PB printing may have been a limited production run. Or ALC, at some point, stopped
issuing Demmitt and O'Hara cards, since they were no longer in the Major Leagues.


Best Wishes to you for the Holidays


TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: barry arnold

Ted Z,

Margaret(you almost spelled it correctly!) and I have been away for a few days for the holidays and I am pleased to see that you never stop your research!!! I checked the cards you listed above as no-prints PB and I have to say that none of mine are PBs!!!
I'm eager to take a look at this thread.
Happy New Year,buddy and thanks for the kind holiday wishes.

best,

barry

[Archive]

Posted By: Scot

Ted,

Sorry for the late response.

A spring 1910 launch for Polar Bear is entirely plausible. While the 350-only subject group was likely released with some brands in late 1909, it was not distributed with other brands until 1910. For example, we know from an ATC ledger sheet that the Cycle 350 back debuted in July 1910. Moreover, we know that Kid Elberfeld was traded to Washington on December 14, 1909--which means that the 350-only subject Elberfeld (Washington Portrait) was probably introduced sometime in early 1910.

My survey data suggest that Polar Bear production peaked with the 350/460 RP print run. About 10% of the 350-only subjects that are possible with the PB back have that back, whereas the PB percentage rises to about 14% for the 350/460 RP subject group, then declines to about 7% for the 460-only subject group. Getting even more specific, Polar Bear production probably was at its zenith during the 460 portion of the 350/460 RP print run, since as we know Kleinow (Boston) and Smith (Chicago and Boston) are bifurcated 350/460 RP subjects that experienced the 460 portion of the 350/460 RP print run and are found disproportionately with Polar Bear.

Scot

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

SCOT R

1st......wishing you a very Happy New Year.

2nd......yes, my speculation on the 1st POLAR BEAR (PB) release (circa June 1910) sounds
quite plausible. It not only resolves the mystery of why the New York versions of Demmitt
and O'Hara were not printed with PB backs; it also, possibly accounts for the the following
350-only Subjects that are PB No-Prints......

Bobby Byrne played for St Louis till 8/19/09

Billy Campbell's Major League (ML) career ends 8/23/09

Ray "Chappy" Charles ML career ends 5/28/10

Dahlen (Brooklyn) suspends his playing career in early 1910 season

Joe Dunn's ML career ends 9/26/09

Miller Huggins is with Cinci till Feb 1910

Doc Marshall's ML career ends 10/7/09

Bob Rhoades ML career ends 8/19/09

Claude Rossman ML career ends 9/3/09

Just to name a few......

Incidently, many of the PB No-Print cards are found with TOLSTOI backs. I think we can con-
clude from this that the the TOLSTOI release date preceded the PB release by several months.

And indeed, the 460 press run of the 350/460 Series cards was replete with PB backs. Red Cobb,
Johnson (pitching), Kleinow (Boston) and F. Smith (Chicago & Boston) are the best examples of
this (off the top of my mind).


TED Z