E90-1 Young Cle pictures Irv Young

[Troy Kirk]

I have long thought that the E90-1 Young Cleveland card does not picture Cy Young, even though it was intended to be Cy. I recently came across a picture of Irv Young from a newspaper in 1905 that shows a similar profile view of Irv as is shown on the E90-1 Young Cleveland card. Just from looking at his nose, it is clear to me that the E90-1 card was created from a picture of Irv. Anyone agree or disagree?

[Leon]

It looks like Irv but Irv was left handed and it looks like the player is right handed on the E90-1. On the E97's it is clearly Irv marked as Cy.....

[Matt]

But the e90-1 image is reversed from the newspaper photo.

Troy - it looks right to me. I wonder if they flipped it knowing it was Irv and that Cy pitched with the other hand. I had always assumed it was just a lousy artist, but that looks exactly like Irv reverse from the photo you posted.


edited to add, now I'm confused - the newspaper article says Cy Young...

[rhettyeakley]

Matt, one of Irv's many nicknames was "Young" Cy Young (in reference to the original Cy Young) so it is talking about Irv. It does look like Irv (at least more so than Cy) based off a similar photo to the one in the newspaper. OR it could just be a really crappy artist rendition, the E90-1 set is full of 'em (ie Joe Jackson). The E90-1's are interesting /c while some players look unmistakable, others look just as generic as their E91-C counterparts!
-Rhett

[Bicem]

Looks a lot more like Irv than Cy to me... nice observation!

[brianp-beme]

The shape of the outline of the face on both card and article look to be pretty exact, just in reverse.

The article does indicate 'Young' Cy Young, which I think is how Irv was quite often identified at the time.

Great detective work Troy...the value of this E90-1 as well as the E92 Dockman, etc. that share this artwork should accordingly plummet because this now should not be known as Irv Young, not Cy Young.

Brian

[Matt]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

Great detective work Troy...the value of this E90-1 as well as the E92 Dockman, etc. that share this artwork should accordingly plummet because this now should not be known as Irv Young, not Cy Young.

The card was clearly intended to picture Cy as the team name indicates, so I doubt it would ever be valued as an "Irv." Plus, I'm not sure anyone who ever owned one looked at it and felt they had an image resembling Cy. The value of the E97 is precedent here as well.

[Bosox Blair]

Originally Posted by Matt

The card was clearly intended to picture Cy as the team name indicates, so I doubt it would ever be valued as an "Irv." Plus, I'm not sure anyone who ever owned one looked at it and felt they had an image resembling Cy. The value of the E97 is precedent here as well.

Exactly.

And FWIW the E97 is even a more questionable case, as the team designation does not put it 100% as Cy Young (vs. Irv).

Cheers,
Blair

[Anthony S.]

Irv's been running roughshod over collectors for years. One of the first tobacco cards I ever bought was a T206 Irv Young at a convention when I was about 8. Thought it was Cy. Told all my friends it was Cy. Pretty sure the dealer sold it to me at a Cy price. Irv really needs to be stopped.

[brianp-beme]

Matt is correct...I neglected to note the team designation. Still I believe the artist used Irv as his model, and got his slopey chin correct. Collectors of the world, big Cy of relief...your candy Youngs will not decrease in value.

Brian (I sing the song of the pyro..."You live a little, you burn a little"

[Bicem]

demand may go down a bit, I know I personally like the card less now.

[Steve D]

Great detective work Troy!

I'd posted a question last week about this card. I've always thought it wasn't Denton "Cy" Young on the card. I was almost convinced, after looking at a few other pictures of him, that it could be as others have said, a "bad rendition" of him. But now, it looks pretty convincing that it is in fact simply a reversed negative of Irv Young.

And to piggy-back on the comments about Irv being nicknamed "Young" Cy Young.....I seem to recall a card, perhaps it was the E94, where the caption reads "Old" Cy Young. So there at least, is an indication that the card maker was making a differentiation between "Old" Cy (Denton) and "Young" Cy (Irv).

It all makes me wonder about the E97, E98 and others that picture Irv, but the caption reads Cy. Could the cards have been meant all along to be Irv, and the manufacturer simply neglected to put Irv's "Young" nickname on the card, and thereby muddying the issue for collectors. If so, the E97 and E98 cards should not carry the HOF premium that they currently do.

Edited to add:

I just looked at baseball-reference.com, and Irv's record shows he played for the Boston Beaneaters (NL) from 1905-1908. He then went to Pittsburg for a year, and then to the White Sox his final two seasons. So the E97 and E98 which read "Cy Young, Cleveland" were clearly meant to be Denton Young. It's a simple case of using the wrong player's picture on them.

Steve

[nolemmings]

While I don't mean to spoil anybody's kudos, hasn't this been known for years?

I've known that this pose and several others depcit Irv, and as I don't even collect these sets, I'm certain I learned it here.

At a minimum, I guess it serves as a reminder or as notice to those who did not know this before.

[Bosox Blair]

Originally Posted by Steve D

I just looked at baseball-reference.com, and Irv's record shows he played for the Boston Beaneaters (NL) from 1905-1908. He then went to Pittsburg for a year, and then to the White Sox his final two seasons. So the E97 and E98 which read "Cy Young, Cleveland" were clearly meant to be Denton Young. It's a simple case of using the wrong player's picture on them.

Steve

Not for E97, Steve, as the Young card has a Boston NL variation...could well have been intended to be Irv Young.

Cheers,
Blair

[martyogelvie]

you don't think the artist intentionally used Irv Young as the model knowing full well it was NOT his subject? I always assumed the artist needed a drawing of YOUNG, cleveland and grabbed the only YOUNG he could get his hands on as a model.... This advertisement could very well have been the model that misguided the artist.. very cool!

[tedzan]

Here is my theory on this card. American Caramel (ACC) intended it to be IRV YOUNG. The pix
is indeed Irv (not Cy).
This card was printed in the last series of the E90 set, which was issued in the Spring of 1910.

Irv Young was acquired by Chicago (AL) from Minneapolis (American Association) Aug 13, 1909.

This was about the same time ACC was planning the last series of 20 (or 30) cards for the E90
set. Therefore, the designer, when lettering the caption, was confused by the "Young Cy" nick-
name given Irv, for Cy Young.



TED Z

[Rob D.]

Possible bias against Ohio ballplayers whose nickname contained only two letters?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

While I don't mean to spoil anybody's kudos, hasn't this been known for years?

I've known that this pose and several others depcit Irv, and as I don't even collect these sets, I'm certain I learned it here.

At a minimum, I guess it serves as a reminder or as notice to those who did not know this before.

This information has been known since the Flintstones were eating pterodactyl but certainly not everyone knows it. I found out when I bought my E97 black and white Young from Tik Sr., about 10 yrs ago.

[Bicem]

Originally Posted by Leon

This information has been known since the Flintstones were eating pterodactyl but certainly not everyone knows it. I found out when I bought my E97 black and white Young from Tik Sr., about 10 yrs ago.

you found out about the e90-1 Young after buying the e97 Young?