Let's Be Frank, Actually My Name Is Peter... - Page 3

Archive · #**101** 03-20-2007, 10:47 AM

Posted By: George Dreher

<I drove the highest post counts in the history of the <board

And Jerry Springer got the highest ratings at one time didn't he?

Archive · #**102** 03-20-2007, 10:55 AM

Posted By: JimCrandell

King,

After talking with Kevin are you more optimistic? pessimistic? is there realistic hope?

I am going to try to call Kevin today.

No word yet from Joe on other topic. I have tried.

Archive · #**103** 03-20-2007, 10:59 AM

Posted By: Jason L

it is entirely possible to be popular or important for the wrong reasons

Archive · #**104** 03-20-2007, 11:06 AM

Posted By: cmoking

Leon, you're right. I did take you out of context...apologies.

John, you're right too. I don't think there is much that can be done right now. I think the best way is for collectors to learn what they can, and try to avoid the altered cards, whether in holders or not.

Jim, after talking to Kevin, I'm not more or less optimistic about the hobby. But I am much more optimistic about my own interest in this hobby.

Archive · #**105** 03-20-2007, 11:07 AM

Posted By: JimCrandell

King,

Why is that?

Archive · #**106** 03-20-2007, 11:19 AM

Posted By: cmoking

because I feel I have a better understanding of what to look for from what Kevin has shown me. I've returned a couple of cards already in PSA holders that had signs of trimming, I would not have noticed them a year ago. And if I'm suspicious but not as certain about a card, Kevin is willing to take a look and let me know what he sees - sometimes he sees nothing wrong (and it's a relief as I will feel more comfortable keeping the card), other times it hurts. Based on some results, there are certain big-time perfect feedback sellers on ebay that I will now absolutely stay away from because the rate of altered cards is way too high. The bottomline for me is I am more happy and comfortable with my current collection than I was before.

Archive · #**107** 03-20-2007, 12:04 PM

Posted By: JimCrandell

King,

Interesting--we will have to exchange lists perhaps? Mine is growing all time.

Jim

Archive · #**108** 03-20-2007, 12:14 PM

Posted By: Dave

Well, just read all of this from this morning. Ok Crandell...can we get back on topic now? Please?

Archive · #**109** 03-20-2007, 12:24 PM

Posted By: JimCrandell

I thought we were on topic.

Archive · #**110** 03-20-2007, 12:25 PM

Posted By: JK

Peter,

The grading system doesnt work in the manner you are assuming. I dont disagree that some bigger submitters may get preferential treatment. However, I doubt seriously its from the $10 per hour graders - most likely, its coming from much higher up. The graders getting the bulk of submissions are supposedly given cards without reference to who the cards belong - only a submission number.

Archive · #**111** 03-20-2007, 01:06 PM

Posted By: Jason L

you could provide the Board in the near-term would be to publish your list of these high-volume, good feedback sellers from which you have bought material but would no longer do so (for whatever reason).

...rather than privately exchange the names of those with whom you will no longer do business with. Because I'm sure most would agree that if you do not wish to do business with certain sellers, then neither would I or most others...

I suppose the language would need to be carefully chosen, but I'm sure some lawyers on the Board could help out with that. That would be truly helpful to most everyone, I would imagine. Perhaps a simple "Here are dealers I do not buy from" list...rather than making any explicit claims of one sort or another.

Thanks,
Jason

Archive · #**112** 03-20-2007, 01:52 PM

Posted By: David Vargha

Wow! Talk about shooting the messenger. Kevin is extremely knowledgeable on the subject and has always been more than willing to share his expertise with friends, collectors and even the professional grading companies. I love it when the self-professed "know-it-alls" jump in with their obligatory responses to prove their ignorance whenever and wherever they can. Sheesh!

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

Archive · #**113** 03-20-2007, 01:57 PM

Posted By: barrysloate

If the hobby has reached the point where collectors begin losing faith in the grading system, and begin to believe that even their graded material is fraudulent, then the day of reckoning is not far. If ever there were a cataclysmic event that could send the market crashing, this is it.

Archive · #**114** 03-20-2007, 01:59 PM

Posted By: JimCrandell

Thanks David--its unbelievable isn't it?

Archive · #**115** 03-20-2007, 02:01 PM

Posted By: Jason L

I will be heading out to the desert in my RV, with my tin foil hat on my head, a beer in one hand, and binoculars in the other!!!

Archive · #**116** 03-20-2007, 02:04 PM

Posted By: barrysloate

Jason- go for it! I predict the world is coming to an end (I'm still working on the exact date).

Archive · #**117** 03-20-2007, 02:16 PM

Posted By: Joe Pelaez

For the continuing adventures of:

As The Market Turns.

Archive · #**118** 03-20-2007, 02:19 PM

Posted By: Kevin

"...and begin to believe that even their graded material is fraudulent"

Well, just 15% anyways. LOL

btw...thanks Mr. Vargha (a sign of respect, he's much older than me) .

Archive · #**119** 03-20-2007, 02:23 PM

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Sad but true, I think anything and anyone associated with or supported by Jim Crandell automatically gets looked at with a jaundiced eye by the board. I suspect that had Kevin come in and posted without Jim's intro and play by play, he would have been treated differently.

Archive · #**120** 03-20-2007, 02:23 PM

Posted By: barrysloate

Kevin- I'm not doubting anything you say, but this is all too depressing. I think it's time for a new career (but not quite yet).

Archive · #**121** 03-20-2007, 02:25 PM

Posted By: Dave

Jeff...am I the only one puzzled by Crandell's constant praise and shoulder massaging he is doing on the behalf of Kevin? Kevin sounds like a smart guy. I don't think Kevin needs to be massaged or whispered sweet nothings by Jim. Not sure where Jim is going with all this...as usual.

Archive · #**122** 03-20-2007, 02:27 PM

Posted By: David Vargha

btw...thanks Mr. Vargha (a sign of respect, he's much older than me)

I believe that operative word here is "taller" (not "older").

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

Archive · #**123** 03-20-2007, 02:56 PM

Posted By: JimCrandell

Dave,

No need to give it a lot of thought--my motives remain the same--get rid of card restoration and save the hobby. You can quit analyzing.

Archive · #**124** 03-20-2007, 03:00 PM

Posted By: JimCrandell

Barry,

Yeah but only a minority of collectors read Net54 or LTS and the rest of the world thinks things are great--probably for one that is an investor, a good time to be taking some money off the table.

Archive · #**125** 03-20-2007, 03:01 PM

Posted By: Cobby33

The more we talk about "fraudulent" cards in holders leading to the demise of the hobby, etc., the more likely this is to become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Whether this is an epidemic or not, it's going to be perceived as one and unfortunately, the unfounded panic may very well cause what we (you) all fear, a market crash of sorts.

Keep talkin' about it without qualifying it on a case-by-case basis and it'll happen.

Archive · #**126** 03-20-2007, 03:10 PM

Posted By: Dave

Hardly anything to analyze. It's a repetitive process at this point. Every few days you have to come on here and jump on the same ship again and again. Correct me if I'm wrong..but other than card "fraud" is there a single topic you've even tried to jump in and discuss? Other than the "keep the threads on topic" debacle?

Archive · #**127** 03-20-2007, 03:14 PM

Posted By: leon

Fine with me if the sky falls. I am not an investor and will still be collecting....It would suck (value-wise) but at least I would be able to buy more cards. I agree that only a very small percentage of collectors read any chatboards, especially this one and the private LTS one.....Personally, if I wanted to collect privately I probably wouldn't collect....but again, to each their own....Whatever makes ya' happy......best regards

Archive · #**128** 03-20-2007, 03:17 PM

Posted By: JimCrandell

Dave,

You seem to want to spend your time studying my motives so I thought I would save you some time.

Graded cards I love to talk about--any serious hobby issues.

Archive · #**129** 03-20-2007, 03:30 PM

Posted By: T206Collector

....I think Jim's motives are simple enough. I do think he wants to save the hobby, even if it doesn't need to be saved -- he wants to save his puritan image of the hobby, which caused him to stick with PSA 8 cards in the first place. He's trying to restore his initial feeling about the purity and rarity of PSA 8.

And, when he finds someone that he thinks supports his belief system, he is desperate to align himself with that person to find a shield from the attacks -- having alienated even his early supporters on this Board he's continuing to look for safety in numbers. Of course, having him on your side is the kiss of death for anyone with a valid point to say. The revulsion and acrimony people feel towards him makes it hard for any real issues to get through.

Perhaps one day he'll realize that and let the useful points through, without clouding them up with statements that amount to, "See, guys, that's all I was trying to say all along," with a strong whiff of arrogance.

Archive · #**130** 03-20-2007, 05:24 PM

Posted By: JimCrandell

No T206 you are wrong again. How someone can be so consistently wrong I will never know. I think this time he was wrong about altered cards being primarily high grade and as usual he takes out his frustrations on me.

You are a very disturbed man and I feel sorry for you T206 or whoever you are. Go kick your dog or whatever it is you do.

Archive · #**131** 03-20-2007, 05:28 PM

Posted By: barrysloate

Are you two guys at it again?

Archive · #**132** 03-20-2007, 05:29 PM

Posted By: Brian

Kevin doesn't need Jim's help to piss people off, I am confident in his ability to piss people off on his own.

Vargha is taller than Kevin, but that's not a high hurdle...

Archive · #**133** 03-20-2007, 05:35 PM

Posted By: JimCrandell

Just responding Barry--I could care less about the guy--he keeps attacking me out of the blue--I will respond.
His way of attacking me is to say I have no friends--ha ha .

He won't be invited to my annual summer bash-card show this year.

Archive · #**134** 03-20-2007, 05:41 PM

Posted By: Dan Bretta

Can anyone remember what Adam Moraine did to get banned from this board? I know he was annoying, but geez it couldn't have been worse than this. I think that little kid who kept asking about the first baseball card was less annoying than our current resident troll.

Archive · #**135** 03-20-2007, 05:41 PM

Posted By: Marc S.

and for those of you who dismiss him as a buffoon playing with bleach -- you have no clue what you are talking about. Kevin can expertly detect trim jobs, recolorations, gloss additions, and myriad other alterations that aren't even on the radar screen of some experienced graders. Kevin is a student of the hobby -- and he is absolutely one of the good guys who is willing to try and educate collectors about what to be careful for. For me, it is always a sad testament about the human condition that so many are so willing to drop thousands of dollars on rare and/or high grade material without doing any due diligence on those materials -- and then crying foul if they found out a dealer sold them a trimmed card, of when they find out that some graders are more or less reputable than others.

I am very thankful for Kevin's expertise and assistance, and I think his warnings, sometimes dire, simply highlight a worst-case scenario that many of us care not to imagine. Consider how many auctioneers/dealers/collectors may know bits and pieces of this same information, but are simply not talking about it.

Marc

Archive · #**136** 03-20-2007, 05:46 PM

Posted By: boxingcardman

The hypothetical situation where cards just drop and drop in value.

I think it would look something like the collecting situation for post-1990 base cards does now. Some people still collect them but most of the people who were into shiny crap collecting appear to have bailed.

I suppose I'd stay involved with vintage regardless of value since I enjoy the collecting, the socializing and the challenge of putting together a collection of rare objects (I collect lots of "worthless" stuff now; just ask my wife). I was collecting before it was big bucks, I collect now, and I'd collect if it went back to 1975 prices; heck I'd probably go back to being a five sport plus nonsports collector like I was 25-30 years ago.

Archive · #**137** 03-20-2007, 05:54 PM

Posted By: JimCrandell

Bretta,

I feel the same way about you--you ruin every interesting thread there is with a video and you never have anything interesting to add.

Archive · #**138** 03-20-2007, 06:01 PM

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Jim, why does every thread in which you participate end up with you and nine people in a fight? What is the common denominator?

Archive · #**139** 03-20-2007, 06:07 PM

Posted By: Bill

Many people do appreciate what it is Kevin does. However, how can you feel sorry for people dropping money down on cards when there are people out there who simply won't share the information on what to look for in an expertly altered card? Nobody is looking for details on how it's done, just what to look for in a card it has been done to.

Change your socks, drink water, and drive on.

Archive · #**140** 03-20-2007, 06:11 PM

Posted By: Dan Bretta

Jeff, the common denominator in this case is - one.

Archive · #**141** 03-20-2007, 06:19 PM

Posted By: barrysloate

Dan- I'm really hooked on youtube these days, and I've made some great finds. If you are a Beatles fan, use the search "Beatles Come to Town" and you will see something really special.

I had to hijack this thread. I can't take any more of this fighting.

Archive · #**142** 03-20-2007, 06:19 PM

Posted By: JimCrandell

Jeff,

The common denominator is there are a group of people on this board who resent or dislike my focus on restoration of cards and perhaps the way I have gone about it. Usually same suspects--you, T206,Bretta and a few others who I can't recall. Certainly I have no interest in calling people names or even bringing ones family into it such as been done. But I will respond to the personal attacks.

Archive · #**143** 03-20-2007, 06:26 PM

Posted By: ScottIngold

Adam J Morain (sp?)

Now there's a name from the past.

Archive · #**144** 03-20-2007, 06:27 PM

Posted By: Brian

I agree with everything that Marc said. The only thing he failed to mention is how short Kevin really is.

Archive · #**145** 03-20-2007, 06:29 PM

Posted By: Dan Bretta

Jim, I don't resent or dislike your main reason for being here. I dislike your attitude, and your innate ability to offend everyone on this board in a near constant fashion. If you go back and read the old threads you will see that I was on your side at one time. Can you not see that you have managed to alienate nearly every poster on this board?

Archive · #**146** 03-20-2007, 06:31 PM

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Jim, I support the issue of cleaning up card doctoring. Nearly everyone does out here. Incredibly you consistently refuse to acknowledge that you are the one that has rubbed just about everyone out here the wrong way. What does your family have to do with it? Whatever family you may have has not even been mentioned in this thread. Just another desperate attempt to deflect blame from yourself. I don't even know if you have a family -- and frankly with the way you treat people I would find it hard to imagine that you have an intact family (and I'm not saying that to be a smartass). I think you just for once, finally, need to recognize that there is a reason why people out here (and off the board as well -- trust me on this one it is true) dislike you. I actually feel bad for you and I wish you'd get some sort of help for your problem instead of just continuing to play the victim. Please note that nothing in here is a personal attack. Just fair and honest criticism.

Archive · #**147** 03-20-2007, 06:40 PM

Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Guys,
I avoid these threads like the Plague for a reason; they stink.... I come here to exchange info with other collectors, not fight with them.
I am happy to share my knowledge with anyone who is interested, and I am very happy to learn from those who know more than me. I thank everyone who takes the time to educate others, and wish the people who bring nothing but negativity to the board would think before they speak. Be well to all Brian

PS We all know that "card doctors" exist, and that they have existed for quite sometime, but a lot of us have the skills to discern real from altered through experience and do not need to be saved. Could we use some "new" information on the latest techniques? Absolutely.... The funny thing is, that most of the people on this board are TRUE collectors who can't stand fakes or alterations, So why do we have an arguement every week??? I'm sorry I just don't get it....

PS 2 Barry I need some Seinfeld.... A job at Kramarerica industies will be just fine, don't go Kenny.....

Archive · #**148** 03-20-2007, 06:41 PM

Posted By: JimCrandell

My side?? Who cares?? This isn't a game where we pick sides. And I could care less if I have alienated you and others. I am here to publicize the alterations/restorations being done and hopefully have something done about it. Other than that I am interested in graded cards and discussing serious topics without it being interrupted by your videos. Please just go away or play your videos on a music site or start a separate thread.

Getting Kevin on here was huge. He confirmed a number of things I have been saying all along. Hopefully he will post again--as Marc points out the guy is super knowledgeable.

Archive · #**149** 03-20-2007, 06:44 PM

Posted By: Dan Bretta

Hopefully he will post again - I am especially interested in the questions that Wonka has asked that have so far gone unanswered.

Archive · #**150** 03-20-2007, 06:45 PM

Posted By: JimCrandell

Jeff,

I have been told by many not to engage you so I won't.

Again, I could care less what you think of me.

You are the one in my opinion who needs to look in the mirror.

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