OMG Blowout list of suspected trimmed modern cards

[swarmee]

There are for a bunch. Then just like with Moser, they can put the submission back together and all cards submitted are considered tainted until proven otherwise. There is a thread on Robert Block in the member feedback section if you want to see a lot of the before and after pictures.

[frankbmd]

I’m sure that some of our members would not consider this evidence.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

I’m sure that some of our members would not consider this evidence.

It's just a list of cards and cert numbers. I did not see any evidence in that list. Perhaps you could point it out to me.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

It's just a list of cards and cert numbers. I did not see any evidence in that list. Perhaps you could point it out to me.

I would agree to an extent. With the exception of references to cards already identified as trimmed by clear photo evidence, it's a list of SUSPECTED cards. Merely appearing on the list is not proof a card was altered. Depending on your point of view, there could be a presumption, although at this point that would not get one over the more likely than not threshold in a lawsuit and so it's more of an opinion/personal judgment. At the very least, though, it's certainly a red flag that anyone with cards on the list should -- if they care -- take proactive measures to further assess those cards. In my opinion, very valuable information for the collecting community. It's just a shame guys on the internet have to uncover this information which is much more readily accessible to the TPGs and to PWCC.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I would agree to an extent. With the exception of references to cards already identified as trimmed by clear photo evidence, it's a list of SUSPECTED cards. Merely appearing on the list is not proof a card was altered. Depending on your point of view, there could be a presumption, although at this point that would not get one over the more likely than not threshold in a lawsuit and so it's more of an opinion/personal judgment. At the very least, though, it's certainly a red flag that anyone with cards on the list should -- if they care -- take proactive measures to further assess those cards. In my opinion, very valuable information for the collecting community.

I'd say this is the first time in a while we are in complete agreement. If I'm reading that thread correctly many of the cards in question aren't even alleged to be altered, just bumped successfully at too high a rate to be considered legitimate. Well I certainly believe that's possible, and even likely, that alone is not proof.

If anything this shows how small the difference in the actual quality of the card between a 9, 9.5, 10, or black label is and how absurd the price difference is. A card in any one of those 4 holders would not look out of place in any other, most of the time.

I would be surprised if people hadn't figured out a way to exploit this. Way too much money at stake for a grader making whatever they make not to try to cash in.

[calvindog]

Interesting that the only grading company which appears to have some evidence of crooked graders is Beckett.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Interesting that the only grading company which appears to have some evidence of crooked graders is Beckett.

The BGS 10 (how the bleep can a card or subgrade be better than gem mint) and the Black Label thing certainly create a huge potential for BS.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Interesting that the only grading company which appears to have some evidence of crooked graders is Beckett.

that's for now. We know PSA has been crooked and have played favorites to their dealer network especially PWCC for YEARS & YEARS. Hopefully the proof will come out in our lifetime but it will definitely come out. The truth almost always wins out in the end. You know that.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I'd say this is the first time in a while we are in complete agreement. If I'm reading that thread completely many of the cards in question aren't even alleged to be altered, just bumped successfully at too high a rate to be considered legitimate. Well I certainly believe that's possible, and even likely, that alone is not proof.

If anything this shows how small the difference in the actual quality of the card between a 9, 9.5, 10, or black label is and how absurd the price difference is. A card in any one of those 4 holders would not look out of place in any other, most of the time.

I would be surprised if people hadn't figured out a way to exploit this. Way too much money at stake for a grader making whatever they make not to try to cash in.

I think if we had complete knowledge of these submissions we would see that many cards were altered, some were bumps (no comment at this point on any degree of corruption or favoritism), and some may be just regular cards thrown in to create the appearance of normalcy. The problem for the collector is how the hell do you figure out the story with YOUR cards. Beckett sure as hell isn't going to review them for you, and at this point who would trust them to do it anyhow?

Now some may be obvious when examined with a new and critical eye by the owner, but many may not be if this card doctor is as good as people say.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by swarmee

There are for a bunch. Then just like with Moser, they can put the submission back together and all cards submitted are considered tainted until proven otherwise.

I wish this were the case legally.

The modern stuff is going to dwarf the vintage losses.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I can only assume 312 is working up a list for one or more other guys identified as modern trimmers.

If modern dwarfs vintage it will be because the other vintage guys haven't left the same tracks and the history goes too far back.

[calvindog]

Agreed. It’s certainly not for lack of trying lol.

[Peter_Spaeth]

What I don't know is how these guys operate in terms of their submissions. Do they just submit stacks of altered cards, or do they try to throw the graders off the trail of the altered ones by mixing in clean ones, for example. Either way, it could end up a nightmare for people owning cards with certs in these subs but without the before and after pics. I imagine some will turn out to be obviously altered, but others may not be so obvious and some may even be legit.

Maybe some of the people here who profess such expertise in detecting alterations should offer their services.

[Buythatcard]

There appear to be more altered cards than non altered cards out there. I think that we have to assume that every card is altered out there.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Buythatcard

There appear to be more altered cards than non altered cards out there. I think that we have to assume that every card is altered out there.

+1

I was kind of thinking the same thing, even though we know some aren't.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Buythatcard

There appear to be more altered cards than non altered cards out there. I think that we have to assume that every card is altered out there.

It's a horrible situation, but at the same time let's not overreact.

[sportscardtheory]

All I know is I will no longer be able to bring myself to make a large purchase of any PSA or BGS graded card/cards moving forward. Small stuff, whatever. I'll buy the card. But if you are talking anything over $50, no way in hell I'm risking spending my money on altered or over-graded cards.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

All I know is I will no longer be able to bring myself to make a large purchase of any PSA or BGS graded card/cards moving forward. Small stuff, whatever. I'll buy the card. But if you are talking anything over $50, no way in hell I'm risking spending my money on altered or over-graded cards.

Same here... and if I do cave in/get stupid or just cannot find it raw (and buy something a bit more expensive), it is getting cracked out the second I take possession.

[Bram99]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What I don't know is how these guys operate in terms of their submissions. Do they just submit stacks of altered cards, or do they try to throw the graders off the trail of the altered ones by mixing in clean ones, for example. Either way, it could end up a nightmare for people owning cards with certs in these subs but without the before and after pics. I imagine some will turn out to be obviously altered, but others may not be so obvious and some may even be legit.

Maybe some of the people here who profess such expertise in detecting alterations should offer their services.

Time for another puff piece on PSA and PWCC to restore the public confidence and paint this as a matter of taste.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Bram99

Time for another puff piece on PSA and PWCC to restore the public confidence and paint this as a matter of taste.

Perhaps our resident Forbes writer will accommodate you.

[soxinseven]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I can only assume 312 is working up a list for one or more other guys identified as modern trimmers.

If modern dwarfs vintage it will be because the other vintage guys haven't left the same tracks and the history goes too far back.

I think modern will always dwarf vintage in the fraud department due to sheer volume produced and the demand for current players. Maybe percentage wise it could be close but when the total numbers shake out I feel like you will see more altered modern cards than vintage.

[Exhibitman]

So basically we all need to look at our own cards and learn to judge condition and authenticity?!?!?! F***!

[drcy]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

So basically we all need to look at our own cards and learn to judge condition and authenticity?!?!?! F***!

Remember the SNL skit where the tv news set teleprompters went out and by the end of the half-hour news show the newscasters were living as cannibal savages?