OT - New Hall of Famers: Bagwell, Raines and Ivan Rodriguez

[Bosox Blair]

Apparently the results are just in:

http://www.espn.com/live/

Cheers,
Blair

[btcarfagno]

All three very deserving. Hopefully more of those in the 50% and higher range get in eventually. Vladdy hopefully makes it next year. I'm not a fan or relievers, so I'm meh on Trevor Hoffman ever getting in.

Congrats to Pudge, Bagpipes and Rock!

Tom C

[h2oya311]

Originally Posted by Bosox Blair

Apparently the results are just in:

http://www.espn.com/live/

Cheers,
Blair

Thanks for the heads-up! Bagwell, Raines, and I-Rod.

[Exhibitman]

Yay Raines! Go Expos!

[CMIZ5290]

All well deserving, glad C. Jones didn't get in. I'm a life long Braves fan but this guy has been an ass hole his entire career, especially to the media and fans. You don't think that matters in the end? He is a rich man's J.D. Drew...

[icollectDCsports]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

All well deserving, glad C. Jones didn't get in. I'm a life long Braves fan but this guy has been an ass hole his entire career, especially to the media and fans. You don't think that matters in the end? He is a rich man's J.D. Drew...

Chipper Jones? He's on the ballot for the first time next year and will get in first ballot.

[90feetaway]

Just my opinion. Neither dominated the sport. Pudge was dominant at catcher which is a thin position. I think Vlad deserves a spot.

[conor912]

"Sold" listings for Raines' RC on Ebay in the last couple hours are pretty impressive.

[Shoebox]

Originally Posted by icollectDCsports

Chipper Jones? He's on the ballot for the first time next year and will get in first ballot.

Yeah I laughed pretty hard at that post too.

[Pilot172000]

1991 Topps Stadium club RC of Jeff Bagwells was one of my first "Big Cards" to pull. Being a Rangers fan, I got to see Pudge play in 94. I love this class. If would have been perfect is Vladdy had made it.

[z28jd]

I have no problem with Rodriguez getting in, but he was clearly a PED guy. My problem is the double standard that allows the leader of the era, Bud "I did nothing except collect a seven-figure salary until congress forced it, then took all of the credit" Selig, and a known PED user to go in on the first ballot, but Bonds and Clemens got passed up again.

Rodriguez was named in Canseco's book along with everyone else who was found guilty. He came back looking like a bobblehead the first year they started testing and his power dropped, plus he refused to answer questions on PED's. Others who covered the Rangers also either agreed with Canseco's accusation of him, or had their own suspicions before the book.

These voters are showing a ridiculous bias towards players they didn't like as players, or they just didn't know any better so they go with the masses. MLB made certain players scapegoats and other players skated with no issues. I doubt Mark McGwire is any more guilty than Rodriguez, but he will likely never get in the Hall of Fame because he was a face of the era.

Basically, voters just need to be consistent. You either vote in the PED players or you don't, but you don't pick and choose the ones you want in based on spite.

[Moyni]

Tonight's announcement also makes these cards even cooler. The only two catchers elected on their first ballots.

[conor912]

This was a fun read...some interesting tidbits about the voting in the early days.

http://www.sportsonearth.com/article...017-inductions

[triwak]

Not to veer too far OT, but has anyone found anything card-wise of John Schuerholz yet? Selig is easy.

[BeanTown]

Great choices for the HOF and those players have some hard minor league cards to collect. Cape Cod for Bagwell. Vladimir is a great player who was the best bad ball hitter to ever play! Plus he used to live with his Mom and Brother early in when he played in Montreal. A great guy and class act. Chipper is a first ballot HOFer and loyal to his team. Some of his off field choices he made while being married were not the best, but a great guy otherwise. He loves to hunt and enjoys his kids not too mention his Hooters wife as that was one of his consequences he made long ago. Lol.

[seanofjapan]

Really glad to see Raines finally getting in, its ridiculous that he had to wait until his last shot.

Its a bit bittersweet, he is probably the last guy who will go in as an Expo (except maybe Vladi, but he might go in as an Angel). Which is sort of the last big MLB related thing we had to look forward too that involved the team.

Well, until Montreal gets a new team at least.

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by seanofjapan

Really glad to see Raines finally getting in, its ridiculous that he had to wait until his last shot.

Its a bit bittersweet, he is probably the last guy who will go in as an Expo (except maybe Vladi, but he might go in as an Angel). Which is sort of the last big MLB related thing we had to look forward too that involved the team.

Well, until Montreal gets a new team at least.

+1

Maybe the best leadoff hitter ever outside of Ricky Henderson. OBP is through the roof.

Hoping he goes in with an Expos cap.

[Gary Dunaier]

Keeping it card-related, Raines joins a select group: members of the Baseball Hall of Fame whose first Topps card was a multi-player rookie card.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Stampsfan

+1

Maybe the best leadoff hitter ever outside of Ricky Henderson. OBP is through the roof.

Hoping he goes in with an Expos cap.

His OBP was .385 - 135th all-time. Not exactly through the roof.

Meanwhile, Edgar Martinez - with his .418 OBP (21st all-time) and 147 OPS+ - still waits.

[Joshchisox08]

Kind of surprised how easily Bagwell got in. Non of his numbers are anything crazy. Meanwhile Baines, Edgar, and McGriff just sit there and rot.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by Stampsfan

+1

Maybe the best leadoff hitter ever outside of Ricky Henderson. OBP is through the roof.

Hoping he goes in with an Expos cap.

13 years in Montreal vs 5 in Chi-town. I don't think there will be any doubt he'll go in with an Expo cap.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by triwak

Not to veer too far OT, but has anyone found anything card-wise of John Schuerholz yet? Selig is easy.

I had a signed team issue postcard/smaller photo from his days with the Royals.

Tom C

[Huck]

Originally Posted by seanofjapan

Really glad to see Raines finally getting in, its ridiculous that he had to wait until his last shot.

Its a bit bittersweet, he is probably the last guy who will go in as an Expo (except maybe Vladi, but he might go in as an Angel). Which is sort of the last big MLB related thing we had to look forward too that involved the team.

Well, until Montreal gets a new team at least.

I think the 80's MLB drug scandal (cocaine) hurt Raines.

http://www.espn.com/mlb/hof07/column...crasnick_jerry

[Huck]

Originally Posted by z28jd

I have no problem with Rodriguez getting in, but he was clearly a PED guy. My problem is the double standard that allows the leader of the era, Bud "I did nothing except collect a seven-figure salary until congress forced it, then took all of the credit" Selig, and a known PED user to go in on the first ballot, but Bonds and Clemens got passed up again.

Rodriguez was named in Canseco's book along with everyone else who was found guilty. He came back looking like a bobblehead the first year they started testing and his power dropped, plus he refused to answer questions on PED's. Others who covered the Rangers also either agreed with Canseco's accusation of him, or had their own suspicions before the book.

These voters are showing a ridiculous bias towards players they didn't like as players, or they just didn't know any better so they go with the masses. MLB made certain players scapegoats and other players skated with no issues. I doubt Mark McGwire is any more guilty than Rodriguez, but he will likely never get in the Hall of Fame because he was a face of the era.

Basically, voters just need to be consistent. You either vote in the PED players or you don't, but you don't pick and choose the ones you want in based on spite.

From what I gather from talk radio, for some reporters what defines a PED user is if the player confessed or was mentioned in any report. If that is the case the reporter votes "no". The evidence has to be more than, "look at how much bigger he is." There has to be some evidence no matter how weak. Some say there already is a PED user in the HOF. It would be interesting to see a player who is voted in, is handed his plaque and months later reveals he was a PED user.

As the older members of the BBWAA die off the known PED users with HOF credentials will be inducted.

[bxb]

I expected Trevor Hoffman to get in this time.

Over 600 saves! I thought it was his year.

[glynparson]

I THINK ITS A JOKE TO PUT PUDGE,PIAZZA,BIGGIO,AND BAGWELL IN BEFORE BONDS AND CLEMENS. OOPs didn't mean to caps lock. I am as confident they all were juicers. Id vote for all of them but think its funny that we seem to be ok with juicers unless you were too good and broke records see McGwire, Sosa, Bonds.

[clydepepper]

All four now HOFers:

Piazza and Griffey - Class of 2016

Bagwell - Class of 2017

Bagwell and Thomas - both born 5/27/1968 & both 1994 MVPs

pretty cool...

Scan.jpg

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by z28jd

Basically, voters just need to be consistent. You either vote in the PED players or you don't, but you don't pick and choose the ones you want in based on spite.

I completely agree with this..it's either all or none. But we are talking about the BBWAA. I believe it was 9 of them in 1982 that didn't think Hank Aaron was a first ballot hall of famer.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by glynparson

I THINK ITS A JOKE TO PUT PUDGE,PIAZZA,BIGGIO,AND BAGWELL IN BEFORE BONDS AND CLEMENS. OOPs didn't mean to caps lock. I am as confident they all were juicers. Id vote for all of them but think its funny that we seem to be ok with juicers unless you were too good and broke records see McGwire, Sosa, Bonds.

I think the biggest test will be A-Rod.

If he gets in then .....................................

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by biohazard

From what I gather from talk radio, for some reporters what defines a PED user is if the player confessed or was mentioned in any report. If that is the case the reporter votes "no". The evidence has to be more than, "look at how much bigger he is." There has to be some evidence no matter how weak. Some say there already is a PED user in the HOF. It would be interesting to see a player who is voted in, is handed his plaque and months later reveals he was a PED user.

As the older members of the BBWAA die off the known PED users with HOF credentials will be inducted.

Pedro Martinez did it last year. I seen an interview with him shortly after being elected. He talked about doing PED's with Manny Ramirez before games. The interviewer was doing everything he could to change the subject ASAP. Then some how it was/has never been brought up again.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

All three very deserving. Hopefully more of those in the 50% and higher range get in eventually. Vladdy hopefully makes it next year. I'm not a fan or relievers, so I'm meh on Trevor Hoffman ever getting in.

Congrats to Pudge, Bagpipes and Rock!

Tom C

I'm in the same boat re: relievers. The save rule is so badly flawed that I will never consider it a real marker of greatness. As a Mets fan, I saw John Franco many years. Overall impression? Meh. Seemed to me that he was very impressive one out of every five appearance, middling in three, and lousy or flat out awful in 2. And in many of those 5 spots he got a save. Of he blew a lead and wasn't charged with anything as the game continued. Would never consider him to be a great player. He was a good player. Most of the time he did what he was asked to do. The only relief pitcher I watched regularly that I would say is hall of fame material was Mariano, and that's coming from a modern day Yankee hater. Never watched Hoffman enough but if you are going to throw number of saves in my face I'm unimpressed.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Pedro Martinez did it last year. I seen an interview with him shortly after being elected. He talked about doing PED's with Manny Ramirez before games. The interviewer was doing everything he could to change the subject ASAP. Then some how it was/has never been brought up again.

Funny the way that works. What' sad is Manny was a hundred times the hitter Fat Sloppy is and he'll get in no problem. The biggest mouth ever for someone who failed a drug test. Boston writers even trash that guy, yet he appears to be getting a free pass for god knows what reason.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by 90feetaway

Bagwell and Raines not HOF material

Just my opinion. Neither dominated the sport. Pudge was dominant at catcher which is a thin position. I think Vlad deserves a spot.

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

Kind of surprised how easily Bagwell got in. Non of his numbers are anything crazy. Meanwhile Baines, Edgar, and McGriff just sit there and rot.

I don't understand where they anti-bagwell sentiments come from. Of those on the ballot he ranked 4th for WAR7 behind Bonds, Clemens, and Schilling.

With WAR being a cumulative number (more years the higher it can go), I tend to look at WAR average for their playing. He ranks 3rd in this behind Bonds and Clemens.

Black Ink measures how much you lead in certain stats. His Black Ink is 24, this is a per year average of 1.6, 4th behind Bonds, Clemens, and IRod.

His Gray Ink, a stat to measure his top 10 performances is at 157 with his per year average ranking him 4th behind Bonds, Mussina, and IROD.

Considering there was no evidence of PED, just speculation based on size, he seems to be the only one worthy for the anti-ped voters.

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Pedro Martinez did it last year. I seen an interview with him shortly after being elected. He talked about doing PED's with Manny Ramirez before games.

Do you have a link? I don't recall Pedro ever admitting to doing PEDs ...

[EvilKing00]

i have no issue with any of the 3 getting in - BUT

Pudge and baggs get in on 1st ballot and Vlad dosnt? lol

Pudge gets in and Bonds dosnt??? Um both on peds

why does Sheffield get no love? his numbers are sick, yea yea peds but others did too

seems its more of a popularity contest than a baseball skills club

[sycks22]

I'm with Bagwell / Pudge, but against Raines. His first year of voting he got 24% and never got higher than 5th in MVP voting. He also never had 200 hits in a year, but had over 700 abs in 4 years. He played forever to get his 2800 hits and averaged only 163 hits per season. The last 13 years of his career he never received an MVP vote, never made an all-star team. He was good, but never great.

[packs]

The Posada shunning makes no sense to me. I don't know if Posada is a HOFer but he deserved more than 17 votes and a one and done appearance on the ballot. Aside from Pudge and Piazza (one definite, one likely cheater) who was a better offensive catcher than Posada? Nobody.

[rdixon1208]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

Kind of surprised how easily Bagwell got in. Non of his numbers are anything crazy. Meanwhile Baines, Edgar, and McGriff just sit there and rot.

Those guys don't measure up to Bagwell statistically.

[Exhibitman]

I used to be in the group of PEDs = never even if only based on hunches like body type or acne. At this point, with Selig enshrined, I'd draw the line at actually caught cheating or admitted to cheating: McGwire, A-Rod, Palmiero, and especially Manny. How f'ing dumb was that guy to get caught twice. I am still on the fence re Bonds and Clemens. I think the evidence in the criminal trials was enough to convict them beyond a reasonable doubt, Bonds even moreso than Clemens. He is a smart man and only an absolute idiot would have believed that the Balco concoctions were vitamins and oils. He engaged in what Nixon used to call "plausible deniability". That said, he and Clemens were legit HOF caliber players without the PEDs, so I expect to see them in the HOF eventually.

As for Raines, he was unfortunate enough to play for mostly crappy teams and play in the shadow of the greatest leadoff man in history. If he had played in any other era he would have been considered the best leadoff guy in baseball, but there was Rickey. Most of his cumulative numbers are in the top 150 players of all time. 5th all time in SB, 38th all time in walks. His SB average was the best ever for anyone with 400+ SB. He had seven consecutive seasons over 70 SB. No one else has ever done that. His 162 game average was 102 runs scored. He wasn't a Rickey or a Ty or a Willie, but he clearly belongs among the top 200 players of all time. IMO that's HOF material.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by BeanTown

Vladimir is a great player who was the best bad ball hitter to ever play!

Best I've seen probably, but I've read some crazy things about Lajoie.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

Do you have a link? I don't recall Pedro ever admitting to doing PEDs ...

No I don't and it seems like stuff like that has a weird way of disappearing. I did find this link but the actual video is also no longer available. The interview I seen was at the beginning of a sporting event and he was the guest. It was also in the time frame of him trying to peddle his book. In the interview I saw he also told the story of the Viagra crushed up in a drink but added there was another PED in it that Manny would bring back from the Dominican Republic.
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/pe...s-with-viagra/

[bbcard1]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

As for Raines, he was unfortunate enough to play for mostly crappy teams and play in the shadow of the greatest leadoff man in history.

You are correct of course concerning the teams Raines played on, but in the twilight of his career he was still good enough to be a contributor to arguably one of the greatest teams of all time.

He was also really the only player who lost peak playing time due to the collusion of major league owners.

[pclpads]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

I'm in the same boat re: relievers. The only relief pitcher I watched regularly that I would say is hall of fame material was Mariano, and that's coming from a modern day Yankee hater. Never watched Hoffman enough but if you are going to throw number of saves in my face I'm unimpressed.

Yeah, and you'll probably be leading the cheering section when Rivera goes in 1st time / 1st ballot. Other than 50 more saves than Hoffman and being a Yankee vs a Pudre, what makes him more HOF worthy than Hoffy if you take away the saves?

[Moyni]

Originally Posted by pclpads

Yeah, and you'll probably be leading the cheering section when Rivera goes in 1st time / 1st ballot. Other than 50 more saves than Hoffman and being a Yankee vs a Pudre, what makes him more HOF worthy than Hoffy if you take away the saves?

This is a joke right? I hate the Yankees, but there is zero doubt that Rivera is heads and shoulders more worthy that Hoffman.

BTW, I think Hoffman should be in too.

[packs]

Originally Posted by pclpads

Yeah, and you'll probably be leading the cheering section when Rivera goes in 1st time / 1st ballot. Other than 50 more saves than Hoffman and being a Yankee vs a Pudre, what makes him more HOF worthy than Hoffy if you take away the saves?

Seriously? Have you looked at Rivera's numbers in the post season? Are you aware that he was as close to an automatic win as there has ever been in baseball? The guy threw one pitch. Every batter he ever faced knew it was coming. None of them could hit it. That's greatness.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by pclpads

Yeah, and you'll probably be leading the cheering section when Rivera goes in 1st time / 1st ballot. Other than 50 more saves than Hoffman and being a Yankee vs a Pudre, what makes him more HOF worthy than Hoffy if you take away the saves?

How does Hoffy's post-season record match up to this?

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/201...ees-postseason

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

I used to be in the group of PEDs = never even if only based on hunches like body type or acne. At this point, with Selig enshrined, I'd draw the line at actually caught cheating or admitted to cheating: McGwire, A-Rod, Palmiero, and especially Manny. How f'ing dumb was that guy to get caught twice. I am still on the fence re Bonds and Clemens. I think the evidence in the criminal trials was enough to convict them beyond a reasonable doubt, Bonds even moreso than Clemens. He is a smart man and only an absolute idiot would have believed that the Balco concoctions were vitamins and oils. He engaged in what Nixon used to call "plausible deniability". That said, he and Clemens were legit HOF caliber players without the PEDs, so I expect to see them in the HOF eventually.

As for Raines, he was unfortunate enough to play for mostly crappy teams and play in the shadow of the greatest leadoff man in history. If he had played in any other era he would have been considered the best leadoff guy in baseball, but there was Rickey. Most of his cumulative numbers are in the top 150 players of all time. 5th all time in SB, 38th all time in walks. His SB average was the best ever for anyone with 400+ SB. He had seven consecutive seasons over 70 SB. No one else has ever done that. His 162 game average was 102 runs scored. He wasn't a Rickey or a Ty or a Willie, but he clearly belongs among the top 200 players of all time. IMO that's HOF material.

Bonds admitted under oath to doping. I don't see how you can be on the fence about Bonds and say no to McGwire when Bonds admitted to cheating.

[howard38]

Originally Posted by packs

The Posada shunning makes no sense to me. I don't know if Posada is a HOFer but he deserved more than 17 votes and a one and done appearance on the ballot. Aside from Pudge and Piazza (one definite, one likely cheater) who was a better offensive catcher than Posada? Nobody.

I agree but would add that Posada may have been a better hitter than Pudge. He had a higher slugging average and was significantly higher in OBP, OPS and OPS+. Pudge had a higher BA and ran better but Posada walked a lot more and had more power.

[howard38]

Originally Posted by bbcard1

You are correct of course concerning the teams Raines played on, but in the twilight of his career he was still good enough to be a contributor to arguably one of the greatest teams of all time.

He was also really the only player who lost peak playing time due to the collusion of major league owners.

The Expos teams Raines played for were actually pretty good. The problem was not bad teams but the fact that they were north of the border.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Pilot172000

1991 Topps Stadium club RC of Jeff Bagwells was one of my first "Big Cards" to pull. Being a Rangers fan, I got to see Pudge play in 94. I love this class. If would have been perfect is Vladdy had made it.

Not surprising, but glad to see they are getting some love. I remember buying many packs of 91 Stadium Club cards and was always thrilled whenever I pulled a Bagwell. One of my favorite players during that, and no mention/talk of PED's.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_prod...temCondition=4

Originally Posted by sycks22

I'm with Bagwell / Pudge, but against Raines. His first year of voting he got 24% and never got higher than 5th in MVP voting. He also never had 200 hits in a year, but had over 700 abs in 4 years. He played forever to get his 2800 hits and averaged only 163 hits per season. The last 13 years of his career he never received an MVP vote, never made an all-star team. He was good, but never great.

You are missing a few points for some reason?
http://www.cbc.ca/radio/day6/episode...fame-1.3929035