The Further Decline of Brick & Mortar...

[Harliduck]

So I am one of those who quit in the early 90's and returned recently to vintage set collecting like many here, and like many here, am quite obsessed with the hobby. No doubt it has changed immensly since 1990, I think I read somewhere there was 10,000 shops in America, where there is now around 200, and most of these are dominated by Magic and stuff I wouldn't use as kinder to start a camp fire...but I digress...

Here in Western Washington we have 3 shops I would consider to having a decent selection of vintage. Not the occaisional 72 In Action Card, but notebooks of commons and a smattering of stars. Looking at The Stache's spreadsheet on another post where he ranks prospects, well, I keep sheets on my set endeavors. I track EVERYTHING, and before I buy ANYTHING, I know exactly what's good and whats bad, by exact percentage and penny. With that said, I will pay a little more for that personal touch, and its fun to have the cards instantly. I also feel good about supporting the locals. I do realize shops have costs; labor, rent, overhead in general, but my percentages are off online retail, and I know shops aren't paying that, so for my figures I calculate their price based on the retail price I can pay online. You could probably double or more the percentage for their profit, but that isn't for me to figure. I hope everyone makes money, I just want to pay market price. For example -

Shop 1 - (No names) In the last 5 years I have been in the shop 3 times, commons are 38% more than average ebay/online prices, semi-stars are 42% higher, and full on HOFers are 82% higher. You could take a picture of his vintage counters, and two years later be assured they are still there. Needless to say I will not darken it's doors. Not only that, the guy is like Comic Book guy on the Simpsons, and his wife who is equally as rude runs the shop most of the time. No Thanks.

Shop 2 - I spend a lot of money here. Shop keep is super nice family guy. Commons are 12% higher, semi-stars are -22% (GREAT DEALS), and star cards are 14% higher. The better part is he is a TOUGH grader and his view of "off grade" starts at 10% of Becket, significantly lower than ebay/online. My percentage sheet has it at -62%. Only problem, they are over an hour away, so I get there when I get there, and he has a huge client list. The shop buys daily, and he turns his inventory just as fast. This of course is a great example of a successful brick and mortar, and I know he sells online as well and has adapted to the hobby. I believe he has been in business since 1988, and don't see him going anywhere. He is such a nice guy in fact, I have spent up to 100% over ebay/online at times just to support him. In return, I have received the opposite in deals where I am shocked. Love it.


Shop 3...and the reason for the post. Great selection of commons (better selection than Shop 2), decent amount of semi-stars, and a relatively poor selection of stars. He has recently moved a mile down the street for a larger shop. Pre-move, commons were 18% higher, and enough to where I enjoyed paying a little extra to support the shop 20 minutes from the house. Semi-stars were 39% more, so only occaisionally, mostly impulse (something I try not to do), and stars are ridiculous, 112% more. I never bought stars there, and the 112% is an average (yes, I take sample notes to track). Some are as high as 260% higher and some don't even register. I don't track graded cards...if I did, it would be laughable here.

SINCE the move, there has been a sharp increase in prices. The last three visits I picked up a few commons and the price went to 38% more, teetering on the edge of support. Yesterday my 8 year old son wanted to get a Russel Wilson Colorado Rocky Bowman card, and it was just me and him for the day (I have 1 son, and 3 daughters, so we have to escape some times! haha) and he loves going to "the card shop". I went through his 64 commons, after my son was able to track down the Wilson to his excitement, and I had what I knew I could get online for $92.50. I was hoping for him to say $125, which was around what I expected based on past dealings and my spreadsheet (shops get real predictable if you track it, I know, I am a nerd). Instead, he comes back with $180. I was shocked, not even close. Not to offend him, and to not create a riff with my son there I shoot back that I can pay $140. Had he took that, it would have been my last transaction, as that is completely out of line, and while I enjoy the experience of coming to a shop, that is too much. He comes back with an offer of $175, and an explanation of how Becket this, and Becket that, and he can get more to those who buy just 1 or 2. I get all that, but he also fails to realize I track his inventory and he has had the same notebook of 64 commons for 5 years, lol. I politely bow out of the negotiation, and explain I don't mind paying more in person than online, but I can't pay literally TWICE as much. I buy the Wilson for $6 (which I can get online for $3.50) and leave. I am not cheap either, far from it, and when I got home I spent exactly $92.50 shipped and got the same cards in better shape. Last year I spent $2,136 at his shop, and I also represent 3 other set collectors who already stopped going there since he moved who spent similar (they use my figures as well). I know I am small potatoes compared to all his Magic customers, BUT, I represent a huge percentage of his vintage base, who he has now sadly alienated.



Cliff notes....it is truly sad as a vintage collector most of my transactions are online. Shop 2 has it figured out, and I guarantee his volume is ten times the other two shops, and I know his clientale is loyal and huge. The other two shops are joked about often when I talk to other local collectors. I just LOVE going into a card shop, I love it. When I was a little kid it was magical. This experience is slowly going away for my son. Looks like I will be taking more trips to Shop 2...and hope it never changes there. The day when 100% of my transactions are online would be a sad day indeed. Sorry about the ramble...yesterday was depressing.

[Bestdj777]

The thing I don't get about brick and mortar stores is the owners with nasty attitudes. I remember being eight and spotting what I thought was a Nolan Ryan rookie. I approached the dealer about it and learned that it was actually one of those porcelian reprints. When I thanked him and walked away I remember him calling me cheap because I didn't want to spend 30 dollars on a reprint. It left me with such a negative taste in my mouth.

Twenty years later, I relocate to a new city and am so excited that I have a card shop two blocks from my house. The guy has a decent vintage selection. Many commons and a handful of stars. Nothing I need for my collection so nothing I'd buy. I end up shopping there maybe ten to twenty times for top loaders for my cards anyway. I finally meet the owner on one of my visits, and the guy makes a nasty comment to me in the thirty seconds we spoke. I just don't get it. It's not like people are lining up to purchase stuff at his place. I think there has maybe been one or two customers there each time I visited. You'd think he'd be a little nicer.

[jimm]

Excellent post, wonder how many of us bowed out early 90s to return in the last few years, thought I was but a few.

[JollyElm]

"You could take a picture of his vintage counters, and two years later be assured they are still there."

This statement says it all to me. A card shop is a business, so they have to move inventory to garner revenue. Problem is, many (most?) of these proprietors treat their inventory the way we collectors do. They see such a far reaching perceived value in their cards and not what is a reasonable, true value...and therefore the cards sit there way overpriced, forlorn and forgotten.

And when it comes to how these folks treat their customers, you nailed it. If someone treats me rudely in any way, it's see ya later, never to return. Yesterday I was in a shop with a terrifically nice, engaging owner who was a ray of sunshine, asking my girlfriend about her Mini Cooper and just being exceptionally friendly. Unfortunately, he didn't have but a small box of vintage cards (nothing that I could use), but his attitude made it perfectly clear. If I want to buy newer cards, undoubtedly I'll make tracks for his place.

[KCRfan1]

I too returned to the hobby a couple of years ago. I had a favorite card shop and could find very nice cards of any decade. He also had cool unique sports items too, one of which comes to mind was a Trans-O-Gram set of the players. Wife and I moved to SoCal and ten years later we are back in KC only for me to find my beloved shop's inventory was sold and the guy retired. Sadly, I do not have much in the area to choose from and from what I HAVE found in the local shops I am happy to shop online.

I am curious if any of you think our card hobby ( and one of my life's pleasures ) is slowly dying. I am near 50, and I do not find much interest in baseball cards from kids. I realize there are too many card companies and the cards are too much in price. Society makes it hard for a kid to be a kid, and EVERYONE is so busy with life. Video games, Social Media, ect all take time and money. I find it sad that the fun I had as a kid, and now as an adult, appears to be enjoyed only by my generation or older. Am I wrong in my accessment? Perhaps it's just the ebb and flow of the tide and the circle of life. I love going to the mail box and opening my cards just like I used to love opening a wax pack when I was 10 years old. This is such a great memory and feeling to have and I feel younger generations have / are missing out.

I'm going to play Sinatra on my Hi-Fi now.......

[hangman62]

John O,
great storys......... so very true...and here on east coast..you could write the same thing

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by KCRfan1

I'm going to play Sinatra on my Hi-Fi now.......

great taste in music!!!!

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by jimm

Excellent post, wonder how many of us bowed out early 90s to return in the last few years, thought I was but a few.

I was definitely one. I got tired of the mass produced crap that was all over the hobby. I returned two years ago, and found that at least there were some product lines I liked (I am a huge fan of the Bowman Chrome prospect autographs, as John referenced). And for the last year and a half, I have purchased those heavily, trying to get "caught up" on the years I'd missed.

But it's still vintage that tugs at my heart strings, and I am now getting to the point where I can start buying the cards I want. I only wish I'd started about a year earlier, because when I was working, I was making more than twice what I am now on disability, and I could have bought anything I wanted. Now, I have to pick and choose, and build my collection slowly.

But I'm in no rush, really. I'm going to enjoy this. There's something about getting one or two great cards a month, and really cherishing them.

[the 'stache]

Oh, and John, I have a lcs here in Grapevine that I really like. SMP sports cards. The owner is knowledgeable and friendly. Unfortunately, it's been about 14 months since I've been able to drop bye after my knee surgery.

I will go there and buy boxes, and the occasional single. And he appreciates when I frequent his shop. That creates customer loyalty in a big way.

[jimm]

Magic and the other incarnations of gaming cards help keep my 3 shops I haunt open so I can find the occasional gem. Kids love that stuff, not sure they'd be open without 'em...:what:

[travrosty]

you might see somewhat of a crash, but all that means is lower prices for new collectors or people who are already collecting, one mans loss is another mans gain.

if prices come down enough, more might enter a hobby which for a lot of people right now seems out of their pocketbook range. but there will be no time in the future when a nice clean sandy koufax rookie card will be worth nothing, or 20 dollars. its always going to be worth a nice amount, the question is just how nice compared to the past?

we have had card booms before and resurgences, but a card plunge is seen by many as a market correction.

[Orioles1954]

There used to be a shop off of South Cooper in Arlington, Texas that I remember being pretty good.

[Rich Klein]

or within a half hour

One is Triple Cards in Plano (15th and Ave K) east of Central (75) -- not much pre-1980 in the store and he definately stays in business with new boxes, supplies etc.

Nicks is at Coit and Campbell in Richardson and that is closer to an old school store with more older cards where clients can actually look at those cards.

Both owners are good people and while they make a profit, neither are outrageous on their prices

Regards
Rich

[Jayworld]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

or within a half hour

One is Triple Cards in Plano (15th and Ave K) east of Central (75) -- not much pre-1980 in the store and he definately stays in business with new boxes, supplies etc.

Nicks is at Coit and Campbell in Richardson and that is closer to an old school store with more older cards where clients can actually look at those cards.

Both owners are good people and while they make a profit, neither are outrageous on their prices

Regards
Rich

Al at Triple Cards runs a very neat store; he is very nice and knowledgeable about the hobby, although his "bread and butter" is definitely the newer stuff. He has one glass case with vintage cards, mostly graded (a few Goudey, 1949, 50, 51 Bowman), and a few vintage football. He caters to the new crowd that loves hits, etc. I usually go there to pick up supplies, and my sons get a pack or two of Pokemon (Al is usually $1 cheaper per pack on those than the typical Walmart/Target, and that's what my sons collect mainly). He told me last week that it is not uncommon for a couple of his customers to come in and drop $5 grand on the Bowman Chrome line (WOW).

Only thing new I have bought recently (to satisfy that pack opening itch) is the Panini Cooperstown line (really good, as it is only older stars, and I got a Molitor autograph in the first pack I purchased) and the new 2014 Donruss (just for old times sake)…..

Have never been to Nicks, but will have to go, since he evidently has more vintage, etc. Neither store, though, stock BCW other than holders, just UltraPro (cheaper price point).

[queencitysportscards]

This is what makes card shops fun as a parent with kids (My Son on the left and step-daughter on the right). Chris Heisey of the Reds stopped by the shop today. Chris was very nice!

[KCRfan1]

That's so cool Hank, and to have the kids there enjoying it too.....you will have lasting, fond memories and so will they.

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by KCRfan1

That's so cool Hank, and to have the kids there enjoying it too.....you will have lasting, fond memories and so will they.

+1

Awesome Hank!! Sounds like it was a great time. I hope your shop is a success and wish you the best of luck.

Sincerely, Clayton

[arc2q]

I briefly visited a local hobby shop yesterday while waiting for a prescription at the pharmacy next door. It recently opening in a shopping center very close to my house so I wanted to see what they carried. The experience reminded me of this thread and, essentially, embodied all the stated reasons above why these stores struggle to survive.

This was a general hobby store that sold only new cards, no vintage. But I am also fascinated by and respect other hobbies like model railroads so looked around. Only one other person in the store besides me. It was a nice store. Small but clean. I had not intended to buy any cards because I don't really collect new stuff, but out of courtesy I felt like I should buy a few packs rather than leave without spending anything. So I picked up two packs of modern stuff and went to check out.

I got the disdainful look for only buying two packs. If that was it then no biggie. Then I was told "for an order this small it will be cash only." I had not intended to use a card but I was still caught off guard by that. I understand the fees but that is the cost of doing business. There's no cash register. Just one of those ledgers that takes the guy 2 minutes to fill out by hand and then he uses the handheld calculator to tell me it is $5.28. I hand him a $20.

There is disgust on his face that I would try to pay for something so small with a $20 bill. He asks if I have anything smaller or a $1. No I don't. Only twenties and a five. He asks the other customer if he has any change! The other customer pulls out a $1 and gives it to the owner who then gives me $15 in change. Then he thanks the other customer for "helping this guy out" as if I am a peddler looking for hand-outs.

This was at 5:30pm...a full 7 hours after opening and you don't have change for a $20 bill after insisting the customer pay in cash? On top of that, the store was closing at 6! How can you close at 6pm and expect to make money? Is it inconceivable that people might want to go to a store after 6pm to spend the money they make while working during the day?

All this aside, virtually every time I go to a store I get that sense that I am doing something wrong or being watched. I remember the shame I felt as a kid when a store owner would say something dismissive. I loved going but my enduring memories now are of feeling empty after leaving the stores like I was out of my league as a kid. I did not feel welcomed.

Now I am an adult with extra money to spend and two young boys who will be getting into hobbies soon enough. But yet I still feel like these stores find ways to drive us away rather than cultivate the hobby. My anecdote may seem petty but I felt a strong desire to get out of that store and never come back as I left. I love the idea of going to hobby/card stores; generally hate the experience even as an adult.

By the way, the 2014 Topps pack I bought had a vintage insert in it...first one I have ever found in a pack. So there...

[jandr272]

Originally Posted by arc2q

All this aside, virtually every time I go to a store I get that sense that I am doing something wrong or being watched. I remember the shame I felt as a kid when a store owner would say something dismissive. I loved going but my enduring memories now are of feeling empty after leaving the stores like I was out of my league as a kid. I did not feel welcomed.

This was always my experience as a kid. I never found a shop who graded honestly. I thought Ebay was a wonderful thing when I discovered it (still a kid, maybe mid teens?) as I could pay fair prices for honestly graded cards. I learned far more from magazines and books than I ever did from card shop owners or dealers at conventions. Most treated a kid as an annoyance who wasn't going to spend enough to be worth their time.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

There is one store in New Orleans, Marksman Sportscards. The shop sells only newer cards and lots of autographs - JSA did an in store authentication a few months ago. I've been there three times and every time the owner was short and acted as though I interrupted him. He never asked me my name or what I collected. Needless to say my opinion of the store is low. However I do hear that he is very good ebay seller.

Al.ex We@ver