An ebay seller issue.....

[Andretti83]

I am removing the comments due to the direction this thread has taken. I was never intending to create disparity and/or negative business processes for IRISHHOSTA.

Mario Borgerding

[thehoodedcoder]

Still finding the card they are trying to pawn off as a brown old mill with crafty language and a 2500 dollar price tag scum bag like.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-1910-19...item3f26224a63

They only added the verbiage in the description after enough complaints were passed.

Kevin

[bobbyw8469]

I didn't know they were the Wentz's. I found their prices on 1933 Sport Kings commons to be comical at best. I will avoid them in the future.

[bnorth]

Raising the price when someone make an offer on a card seems to be a trend. It has happened to me a few times lately.

[the 'stache]

The text on the back of this card is between Brown and Black in color. Because of the way this card was printed, the text on back, while not entirely Brown, is more Brown than most of the typical Black Old Mill cards you will encounter. In addition to the Brown/Black color, because all known Brown Old Mill backs are hand-cut and this card is factory cut, it cannot be considered a Brown Old Mill. Nevertheless, it is an interesting curiosity at a fraction of what a true Brown Old Mill will cost.

Really?

[JasonD08]

I have had the utmost professional experience from this seller. Mario, your post makes no sense to me when you say the "buyer" backed out of the deal. Were you the buyer? I would also go out on a limb and say they have far more knowledge in vintage sportscards than all of the posters on this thread combined. I am not in any way affiliated but will say I have done business for many years......well before this board blew up and say that I have never had a negative experience. If you do not like the prices then just move on down the road. Sounds like a case of sore ass spoiled child syndrome to me.

Jason

[ALR-bishop]

I have purchased some 52 Topps from them in years past without a problem. I also was not sure I completely followed what the OP said had happened.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

I have purchased some 52 Topps from them in years past without a problem. I also was not sure I completely followed what the OP said had happened.

I think he meant to say the seller, not the buyer, backed away?

[bobbyw8469]

I would also go out on a limb and say they have far more knowledge in vintage sportscards than all of the posters on this thread combined.

If you mean in terms of ripping people a new one, then yes, you are probably right!

[JasonD08]

Bobby


How can you "rip" people a new one when they have to hit the purchase button. You make no sense in your statement. Are you eluding that they sell altered, reprint items, or just take money and do not deliver product? To me those fall into the perimeters of "ripping" off. Please elaborate.

Jason

[vintagetoppsguy]

Give the OP a break. To say his entire post makes no sense is ridiculous. He transposed one word. Replace the word "buyer" with the word "seller" and his post makes perfect sense.

That said, there are always 2 sides to every story. I'm sure the other two involved will tell their side as they are board members.

However, if it happened as the way the OP described - raising the price after it was already agreed upon - then that is pretty crappy.

[bobbyw8469]

However, if it happened as the way the OP described - raising the price after it was already agreed upon - then that is pretty crappy.

+1

[JasonD08]

I am sure it did not. We will see what hosta has to say. My money is on irishhosta and yes the OP's statement did make no sense. Read it again.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by JasonD08

I have had the utmost professional experience from this seller.

....

I would also go out on a limb and say they have far more knowledge in vintage sportscards than all of the posters on this thread combined. I am not in any way affiliated but will say I have done business for many years......well before this board blew up and say that I have never had a negative experience.

....

Jason

I agree with the above that you posted. If I had to create a list of honest, pleasant sellers over the last ten years, Irishhosta would definitely make the list.

And Jason, Irishhosta has no reason whatsoever to respond to this thread. A proven, honest seller ignoring ridiculous public assertions is not an indication of guilt.

[MattyC]

Seems the OP is alluding to a deal in which a seller backed out. Or something along those parameters.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

If you mean in terms of ripping people a new one, then yes, you are probably right!

LOL what does this mean? Like a Bill Mastro type tirade when a collector wouldn't sell him the cards he wanted at the low-ball price he was offering?

[Andretti83]

Let me just say I'm not 'bashing' the seller, I'm just irritated that Irishhosta chose to up their offer and renegotiate an offer extended to me on eBay.

Regarding the offensive remark "spoiled" I am far from that. I've paid my dues and have the graduate school loans to prove my worth (or lack thereof currently). Nice try to kick someone when they're just voicing concerns that spurred from a seller ultimately changing their mind when the demand increased.

Mario Borgerding

Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk

[Andretti83]

Originally Posted by JasonD08

I have had the utmost professional experience from this seller. Mario, your post makes no sense to me when you say the "buyer" backed out of the deal. Were you the buyer? I would also go out on a limb and say they have far more knowledge in vintage sportscards than all of the posters on this thread combined. I am not in any way affiliated but will say I have done business for many years......well before this board blew up and say that I have never had a negative experience. If you do not like the prices then just move on down the road. Sounds like a case of sore ass spoiled child syndrome to me.

Jason

Thanks Jason for the comment, "Sounds like a case of sore ass spoiled child syndrome to me." You clearly do not know me, but I would appreciate an attempt to get to know you before making a remark of that magnitude. Respectfully submitted, Mario Borgerding

Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk

[glchen]

Originally Posted by Andretti83

Thanks Jason for the comment, "Sounds like a case of sore ass spoiled child syndrome to me." You clearly do not know me, but I would appreciate an attempt to get to know you before making a remark of that magnitude. Respectfully submitted, Mario

Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk

Don't sweat it, Mario. It looks like Jason and the Wentz family are buddies with these kinds of comments. When people drop down to name calling and other similar insults, that's usually when they don't really having any backing behind their arguments and are trying to divert the thread elsewhere. If irishhosta did back out of an agreed deal and then up the BIN price, that's a very poor business practice and bad customer service.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by glchen

Don't sweat it, Mario. It looks like Jason and the Wentz family are buddies with these kinds of comments. When people drop down to name calling and other similar insults, that's usually when they don't really having any backing behind their arguments and are trying to divert the thread elsewhere. If irishhosta did back out of an agreed deal and then up the BIN price, that's a very poor business practice and bad customer service.

What is wrong with being buddies with the Wentz family?

[Andretti83]

Originally Posted by Runscott

What is wrong with being buddies with the Wentz family?

Absolutely nothing, in fact I would consider doing business with them in the future. I'm simply asking them to 'honor' a price we had agreed to.

Unfortunately for buyer and seller, there was a misinterpretation of the negotiated selling price and concerns have been voiced here. I have NO issues with their customer service or contact emails.

Mario Borgerding

Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk

[Cardboard Junkie]

Sweet deal on that "brown" Old Mill, ain't it?

[chernieto]

Originally Posted by Runscott

I agree with the above that you posted. If I had to create a list of honest, pleasant sellers over the last ten years, Irishhosta would definitely make the list.

And Jason, Irishhosta has no reason whatsoever to respond to this thread. A proven, honest seller ignoring ridiculous public assertions is not an indication of guilt.

I love how you know exactly who is making "ridiculous public assertions". Just because your personal experience & putting the seller on your nice list doesn't make you the judge and jury. You obviously have your opinion and seem to have great difficulty in accepting the fact other people have other opinions than your own without attacking them.
I have no idea if they are honest or not but at a glance their prices on T206's seem absurd to me.
& Mario, good luck on collecting. My only advice to you is lay off those Cheetos-

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Andretti83

Absolutely nothing, in fact I would consider doing business with them in the future. I'm simply asking them to 'honor' a price we had agreed to.

Unfortunately for buyer and seller, there was a misinterpretation of the negotiated selling price and concerns have been voiced here. I have NO issues with their customer service or contact emails.

Mario Borgerding

Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk

I understand your position. I was responding to Gary's post regarding the Wentz family. Defending a well-respected seller who we've had great transactions with for over a decade, seems both reasonable and appropriate.

Not knocking you for posting publicly your side of the story - many forum members think that resolving transaction issues by using pressure from the forum, is the best approach to doing business. I used to sometimes publicly out forum members who backed out on deals, either as sellers or buyers, but it's not effective - their enemies will jump in to attack them, as is happening in this thread, and their friends will jump in and attack me. Ends up being a lose-lose for everyone involved, and as far as the transaction is concerned, nothing changes.

[chernieto]

Originally Posted by Cardboard Junkie

Sweet deal on that "brown" Old Mill, ain't it?

Are you referring to the one with the black back? Probably just an honest oversight

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by chernieto

I love how you know exactly who is making "ridiculous public assertions". Just because your personal experience & putting the seller on your nice list doesn't make you the judge and jury. You obviously have your opinion and seem to have great difficulty in accepting the fact other people have other opinions than your own without attacking them.
I have no idea if they are honest or not but at a glance their prices on T206's seem absurd to me.
& Mario, good luck on collecting. My only advice to you is lay off those Cheetos-

Paul,

nevermind.

[glchen]

Originally Posted by Runscott

What is wrong with being buddies with the Wentz family?

Scott, there is nothing wrong with being buddies or defending Irishhosta. However, there is a problem with name calling and below the belt insults. It only makes the one being defended look worse.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by glchen

Scott, there is nothing wrong with being buddies or defending Irishhosta. However, there is a problem with name calling and below the belt insults. It only makes the one being defended look worse.

Good, as I consider myself buddies with the Wentz family as well, even though anyone other than Irishhosta is irrelevant to this discussion.

I also agree with you that name-calling and below the belt insults are inappropriate.

And finally, I'm sure you agree with me that there are two sides to every story, and that we are probably missing some details. I sincerely hope that the OP and Irishhosta manage to work this out in the background.

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by glchen

Scott, there is nothing wrong with being buddies or defending Irishhosta. However, there is a problem with name calling and below the belt insults. It only makes the one being defended look worse.

+1

On a separate note: I would also be very offended if a seller backed out of a previously agreed upon price. Sellers should honor their commitments and it seems as though this one did not.

[glchen]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Good, as I consider myself buddies with the Wentz family as well, even though anyone other than Irishhosta is irrelevant to this discussion.

I also agree with you that name-calling and below the belt insults are inappropriate.

And finally, I'm sure you agree with me that there are two sides to every story, and that we are probably missing some details. I sincerely hope that the OP and Irishhosta manage to work this out in the background.

Yes, I agree with that. I've also purchased items from ebay from irishhosta, and never had any problems. They probably also have their side of the story, which they may or may not decide to share. As you said, hopefully, they will work things out.

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

+1

On a separate note: I would also be very offended if a seller backed out of a previously agreed upon price. Sellers should honor their commitments and it seems as though this one did not.

If this is the item, it appears as if offers were made but not accepted:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1922-V61-NEI...item3cd1f153c1

So was it an off-eBay transaction the was being attempted?

[RGold]

I have bought lots of cards from the Wentz brothers, directly or through their various eBay entities. They are one of the most knowledgeable sellers in the hobby. They have always responded to my questions, sent via regular email or through the eBay message system, in a timely and polite manner.

They are not bashful about asking high prices for premium quality cards. While there have been cards that we were not able to agree on price, they have always negotiated with me professionally.

There have been times when we settled on a price for a card that was listed on eBay, and I have offered to buy the card in a private sale so that they could save the fee. They always tell me it's no big deal and to just do the transaction on eBay. Also, they insist on sending my purchases Fedex overnight even though I usually tell them that there is no rush.

I mention this because I just cannot imagine that they would renege on a sale for $50.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Good war stories, "RG". On a serious note, I would add that on a couple of occasions Michael went out of his way to respond at length when I asked him his opinion about whether significant cards I was considering might be altered (not his cards). He is indeed, as mentioned, extremely knowledgeable.

[Runscott]

As a side note, there are a lot of honest sellers who rarely, if ever, post in these forums. I've spoken with some of them and in all cases (seriously, ALL), they feel that there is no benefit to responding to these sorts of posts, but in order to ignore such posts, they also have to pretty much never post about anything on any subject. This is also true for other hobby forums other than vintage baseball. Of course, there are also dishonest sellers who do not post, for many of the same reasons.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by JasonD08

Bobby
You make no sense in your statement. Are you eluding that they sell altered, reprint items, or just take money and do not deliver product?
Jason

The irony here is palpable.


I have never dealt with the seller in question, so I have no vested interest one way or another. But it is my opinion that they are purposely misleading potential buyers on the Old Mill-backed T206 card, and that makes a very bad first impression, indeed. And if it is true that they have "far more knowledge about vintage sportscards than all the posters in this thread combined", they should really be ashamed of themselves.

[JasonD08]

Who is calling names? Mario, I am not kicking you about anything…..trust me if I did you would not be posting. You are correct, I do not know you from Adam, but you came on here and pressed an opinion that I am certian that is flipped and not entirely accurate. So when I post my opinion you call it name calling or kicking? Not true Sir. I call nobody names. Let's keep this to cards and let people respond that have actually done business with irishhosta. Again, I have no dog in this fight, but I will not be silent and let someone who is chapped because a price did not go their way to sit here and down-grade a good seller. Atleast they grade accurately and are honest sellers. Also I understand you paid your dues with grad school and all…..alot of us are educated. But we all know that does not mean anything when it comes to character and running a business. You must be a banker, stock trader, or politician.

Take care,
Jason

[bobbyw8469]

The irony here is palpable.

come again?

[Cardboard Junkie]

I don't think trying to sell a black old mill back as a brown qualifies as "honest".

[chernieto]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

The irony here is palpable.


I have never dealt with the seller in question, so I have no vested interest one way or another. But it is my opinion that they are purposely misleading potential buyers on the Old Mill-backed T206 card, and that makes a very bad first impression, indeed. And if it is true that they have "far more knowledge about vintage sportscards than all the posters in this thread combined", they should really be ashamed of themselves.

+1
Amazed that some folks here could over look that.

[Cardboard Junkie]

Originally Posted by chernieto

+1
Amazed that some folks here could over look that.

Actually, it doesn't amaze me at all. Dave.

[thehoodedcoder]

Originally Posted by chernieto

Are you referring to the one with the black back? Probably just an honest oversight

The listing used to call it a brown old mill card. I emailed them and they changed the wording in the description.

You didn't read the listing or you wouldn't have posted your comment.

Kevin

[Section103]

I don't have a strong opinion on IrishHosta either way. Nice cards, quite overpriced, good service.

Im bemused about the idea that V61s are about to take off in price. Im curious what they see.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Cardboard Junkie

I don't think trying to sell a black old mill back as a brown qualifies as "honest".

Wait -- Now it's ok to sell a black Old Mil as a brown one.

[chernieto]

Originally Posted by thehoodedcoder

The listing used to call it a brown old mill card. I emailed them and they changed the wording in the description.

You didn't read the listing or you wouldn't have posted your comment.

Kevin

Kevin,

I wouldn't have posted my comment if I hadn't checked the listing
I saw the listing this morning and read it based on your earlier post. I appreciate you said something to them about it. Perhaps you should ask someone before stating they didn't do something when you don't have any knowledge of whether that is so.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-1910-19...item3f26224a63

The words "old mill brown" are used in the title. I admit I haven't been on this board as long as many of you. I am impressed by the knowledge and dedication of numerous participants here. My understand has been there's
A) black old mill backs ranked 25th & 29th in scarcity
B) brown ones rare: ranked 2nd in back scarcity
C)apparently there is, thanks to this seller, a new grouping between black and brown, but listed as brown in the title.
And one can buy it from this seller for $2,500 bucks or an agreed upon best offer. Perhaps they changed there wording based on whatever you emailed them - but it still says "brown old mill" in the listing & their intention seems to remain the same: sell the card as if it is brown even though it is not.
Thanks
Paul C.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by JasonD08

Who is calling names? Mario, I am not kicking you about anything…..trust me if I did you would not be posting. You are correct, I do not know you from Adam, but you came on here and pressed an opinion that I am certian that is flipped and not entirely accurate. So when I post my opinion you call it name calling or kicking? Not true Sir. I call nobody names. Let's keep this to cards and let people respond that have actually done business with irishhosta. Again, I have no dog in this fight, but I will not be silent and let someone who is chapped because a price did not go their way to sit here and down-grade a good seller. Atleast they grade accurately and are honest sellers. Also I understand you paid your dues with grad school and all…..alot of us are educated. But we all know that does not mean anything when it comes to character and running a business. You must be a banker, stock trader, or politician.

Take care,
Jason

Jason, for somebody with "no dog in this fight", you sure appear to be taking this whole thing quite personally. I'm not trying to pick a fight with you at all. Please know that. But it is my opinion that you need to take a deep breath, step back, and look at this dispassionately. You were not at all privy to the communication between Mario and this dealer. It may very well be that the seller, whom you hold in high regard, did indeed back out of a deal.

If this dealer agreed to terms, and then raised the prices after the fact, it matters not if the deal was negotiated off of Ebay. A handshake agreement, at least in my mind, is binding. There may be no written rule governing this type of transaction, but I believe that is the ethical way to do business. A man is only as good as their word.

Secondly, you may have had nothing but good transactions with the seller in question. That's great. It appears from this topic that Mario did not, and your having a great history with this seller does not preclude them from having bad transactions with other buyers. As has already been pointed out, an auction they currently have on Ebay is using blatantly misleading verbiage in an effort to dupe somebody into grossly overspending for a baseball card.

I do not know you. I do not know the seller. I do not know Mario. Right now, I am simply absorbing everything that has been presented in this discussion. One thing is clear, however: the aforementioned auction, in my opinion, lends credence to what Mario has posted.

[the 'stache]

Furthermore, I am more than a little punchy right now (no sleep at all last night), but, should I be taking umbrage with the comment about bankers, stock traders and politicians? I have been a licensed stock broker for seven plus years, and I promise you, I am as ethical a person as you will ever meet.

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by JasonD08

Who is calling names? Mario, I am not kicking you about anything…..trust me if I did you would not be posting.~~~~~ But we all know that does not mean anything when it comes to character and running a business. You must be a banker, stock trader, or politician.

Take care,
Jason

"sore ass spoiled child" might be considered calling names in some circles. As well, the context in which you proffer a guess as to his profession may be taken the wrong way.
That may be what he is eluding to.
The irony is palpable.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The actual description doesn't seem misleading to me, it clearly states it is not a Brown Old Mill, and explains why. One could reasonably find the whole thing unsavory I suppose, because some minor printing difference likely isn't worth any premium, but that is different from misleading. The title is another matter. I suppose their thinking might be that it's just there to attract "hits" and that anyone interested will read the description. But they could have accomplished the same thing by adding the word "not" in front of brown.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Furthermore, I am more than a little punchy right now (no sleep at all last night), but, should I be taking umbrage with the comment about bankers, stock traders and politicians? I have been a licensed stock broker for seven plus years, and I promise you, I am as ethical a person as you will ever meet.

Every one suspects himself of one of the cardinal virtues -- F. Scott Fitzgerald.

[the 'stache]

In addition to the Brown/Black color, because all known Brown Old Mill backs are hand-cut and this card is factory cut, it cannot be considered a Brown Old Mill.

No, it cannot be considered a Brown Old Mill because it is not a Brown Old Mill. How is that difficult to understand?

From the moment the card's advertising was inked, it was a Black Old Mill back. Period. That was never going to change. Never never never. How the card was cut is irrelevant here, and the seller, who has all this experience, knows this. Yet they are employing word games within their auction in an effort to deceive possible buyers. There can be no other explanation.