FAKE packs and an FBI Fraud Investigation: What would YOU do?

[yankeeno7]

Wow, Im getting out of the hobby if baseball cards are worth going to jail for! hahaha!!

[probstein123]

1979 Thrman Munson his card ony came in the bottom section and a
true expert should know that
==> how is this rock solid definitive info ? very curious to know and understand.
thx

[HasselhoffsCheeseburger]

Originally Posted by probstein123

1979 Thrman Munson his card ony came in the bottom section and a
true expert should know that
==> how is this rock solid definitive info ? very curious to know and understand.
thx

Good to see you doing some research on unopened material after seeing all those bad rack packs you were selling.

[mcadams]

Pepis- If this is your version of an apology, then I'd say its one of the worst apologies I've ever heard. You have a lot of nerve posting an admission here in such a callous and unremorseful fashion.

[pepis]

Originally Posted by probstein123

1979 Thrman Munson his card ony came in the bottom section and a
true expert should know that
==> how is this rock solid definitive info ? very curious to know and understand.
thx

it is actually pretty simple to verefy,,
in 1979 cards were issued in 6 different series A,B,C,D,E & F
if you look on the back side of every card you'll find one of these letters next to the copy right which would indicate what panel the card came from
now if you open a legit 79 cello you'll find 2 sections separeted by a gum piece the cards in the top section should be from series D,E,F panels
and the bottom section would have cards from A,B,C, panels, AGAIN EASY A,B,C, CARDS ON THE BOTTOM SECTION,,D,E,F, IN THE TOP SECTION
if anybody checks every pack on EBAY current or past you will never find a common card from A,B,C, on top, the only time you see an A,B,C, card
on the top section is when somebody put a STAR from that panel on a home-made pack all of you with 79 cellos can easily double check it.

[al032184]

Pepis, post a list of the cert numbers of the packs you received from PSA.

[pepis]

Originally Posted by al032184

Pepis, post a list of the cert numbers of the packs you received from PSA.

The packs that i was involved directly in altering that graded
are still in my posetion,, i call them proof and think only 12 people will see'm

[Taxman]

If you have a Psa cert number can you pulled all the cards in that submission? If so try this cert 19979599.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by pepis

The packs that i was involved directly in altering that graded
are still in my posetion,, i call them proof and think only 12 people will see'm

So you are claiming that you submitted resealed/fake cellos but never sold any of them?

[drmondobueno]

Originally Posted by pepis

The packs that i was involved directly in altering that graded
are still in my posetion,, i call them proof and think only 12 people will see'm

What does that mean? What 12 people? Proof of what? What do you mean you think 12 people? How many are NOT in your possession? Did you sell them? Give them away? Destroy them? Do you know who has them?

[Clutch-Hitter]

.......

[cincyredlegs]

Originally Posted by HasselhoffsCheeseburger

Good to see you doing some research on unopened material after seeing all those bad rack packs you were selling.

+1

[cguidi]

I so wish I could be there to see the look on the poor jurors' (the 12 people Pepis is planning on showing his packs to) faces when they find out that this is the case they are going to be stuck listening to... something tells me that by the time the lawyers are done screening no one there will be nearly as interested as anyone who is reading this forum. Unless of course Pepis has a Runaway Jury partner in crime...

[T206DK]

Originally Posted by matthew h

i heard there's some greedy people in this hobby... Is that true?

whatchu talkin' 'bout willis !!

[botn]

Wow a thread that brought out Rick Probstein. Too bad Rick never piped in on threads that he and his auctions were the subject of.

[Bugsy]

Originally Posted by botn

Wow a thread that brought out Rick Probstein. Too bad Rick never piped in on threads that he and his auctions were the subject of.

That is exactly what I noticed. Here is a fresh one:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ight=probstein

[brob28]

Looks like nobody directly answered your questions. I'll leave the legal advice to others and stick to simple "do the right thing" answers.

Questions for the board:
A) Is it morally ok for me to sell the packs on the list? Seriously? No its not ok to sell something you have reason to believe is altered.

B) How would you feel if you saw a pack you owned on the list? Umm, Bad

C) Should I disclose to my friend that he could have a fake pack even though I told Steve Hart I would not share the list with anyone No, you yourself said Steve is honorable, so treat him honorably and do as you promised

D) Should I contact the consigner of the packs I sold and let him know he may have passed on fake packs Not now, you yourself said there are still questions on many packs, wait for the FBI investigation to finish and deal with any bogus packs you consigned at that time

E) I have the entire list of possible bad packs. Should I post them so people can view it or keep it a secret because I told Steve Hart I would not share the list with anyone.* I refer to the last half of your question "C" live up to your word with Steve. BTW I really hope you have not caused Steve a world of hurt by going public that he gave you this list while there is an ongoing FBI investigation

F) Should I at least expose the pack I see on ebay right now?* Even though it may be real? No, as you just said it may be real

[probstein123]

Wow a thread that brought out Rick Probstein. Too bad Rick never piped in on threads that he and his auctions were the subject of.
==> hey greg, I'll reply to that 1914 cracker jack thread shortly...

[pepis]

Originally Posted by drmondobueno

What up, Jose?

Everything is de-mundo-bueno Keith.

[hammer]

Open all the packs see what you get I know it is gambling, But you can throw out the evidence and start new .

[jefferyepayne]

Originally Posted by botn

Wow a thread that brought out Rick Probstein. Too bad Rick never piped in on threads that he and his auctions were the subject of.

Originally Posted by HasselhoffsCheeseburger

Good to see you doing some research on unopened material after seeing all those bad rack packs you were selling.

If I were a dealer I wouldn't post many questions here either if these were the types of responses I got.

jeff

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by jefferyepayne

If I were a dealer I wouldn't post many questions here either if these were the types of responses I got.

jeff

Lots of dealers ask questions here, ones that have no reason to garner such negative responses, don't.

I have bought stuff from Rick P, and will continue to as he's got quality material, and I think he's a good seller. I will however, examine closely the biddig activity. It is my opinion that some his consignors are using him as an easy avenue to shill their lots, and no one on his end really cares...

Matt Hall

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Using Google's "poofed-thread" recovery feature, here's some of the packs StarPaxMan was showing off along with some interesting admissions:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...ient=firefox-a

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...ient=firefox-a

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...ient=firefox-a

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache6XfjCoo3MgJ:forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm%3Fcatid%3D11%26threadid%3D848796%2 6STARTPAGE%3D4+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...ient=firefox-a

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...ient=firefox-a

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...ient=firefox-a

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...ient=firefox-a

In thread #6 1980scollector wrote:

Just want to thank Jose. Today, made him an offer for two packs. He came back and actually offered to sell the two for 50.00 less than my offer.

In all my days, never had someone take my offer and reduce it.

Can't wait to get my two packs!

So it appears some of these were sold unless the deal never went through.

[Matthew H]

Dan, where are the admissions?

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Matt,

Besides the quote from another collector regarding a sale, other things were mentioned:

In thread #4, 1980scollector wrote:

Jose,

Wow, I wanted the Dawson since I missed your PSA 9 you sold earlier this year and then I realized it is a TOP and BOTTOM.



In thread #7 StarPaxMan wrote:

The 1st time i remember going out making daly rounds to dep stores card shops etc was during the David Clyde rc frenzie in 1974, in 1975 i went nuts buying case after case of 1975 pulling all the star/rookies on top out and sell
everything else at shows,i think i paid between $120 and $175 per case through 1977 and it went on on different levels til the mid 80s when competition got tough.
btw; between 1976-1979 G.foster was a super star the absolute class of the NL,,,,,,,,,,,Jose

In summary, with discussions of packs being sold and claiming to have bought these packs as originals, I'm having a hard time believing that this was all just a test to see how good the graders and experts are.

I'm curious to know how this was all brought out into the open. Was it by the pack submitter or did someone blow the whistle on him?

[slidekellyslide]

On April 7, 2012 someone wrote only "Your honor" in that thread.

Prescient?

[jefferyepayne]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

Lots of dealers ask questions here, ones that have no reason to garner such negative responses, don't.

I have bought stuff from Rick P, and will continue to as he's got quality material, and I think he's a good seller. I will however, examine closely the biddig activity. It is my opinion that some his consignors are using him as an easy avenue to shill their lots, and no one on his end really cares...

Matt Hall

I have no problem with your position at all. My only point is that we can either use this forum to constantly complain about grading companies, dealers, bad buyers, bad sellers, etc, etc, etc or try to improve the hobby when given the opportunity. If a dealer shows any sign of wanting to learn more about how to spot fakes, reprints, repacked packs, etc., I think we should take it as an opportunity to educate instead of pile on.

jeff

[HasselhoffsCheeseburger]

Jeff, I appreciate your comments but, with all due respect, I don't think you're fully aware of all the details.

[Matthew H]

Thanks for clearing it up for me Dan... I'm not too knowledgeable on the cello pack niche. I noticed he was flaunting some unopened 1987 topps
Football, I'm kinda surprised the hobby values something like that.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by DavidG1966

13) I called some higher ups at PSA looking for assistance and guidance and was treated like crap and given no help.
14) My entire user profile including thread posts and PM's has now been deleted from PSA's forums. I had a lot of information pertaining to this in my PM's

I am shocked, shocked to find out information like this.
Treating customers like crap and censorship, just shocking .

[T205 GB]

Originally Posted by jefferyepayne

I have no problem with your position at all. My only point is that we can either use this forum to constantly complain about grading companies, dealers, bad buyers, bad sellers, etc, etc, etc or try to improve the hobby when given the opportunity. If a dealer shows any sign of wanting to learn more about how to spot fakes, reprints, repacked packs, etc., I think we should take it as an opportunity to educate instead of pile on.

jeff

I am not sure that ignoring the issues and problems will solve anything. This board makes many aware of the issues out there to protect the hobby. A complaint about a seller or grading company can save someone $ in the end. I guess if you don't like how things are here then you can find another board to visit for info and warnings.

If your referring to probstein123 as "the dealer" then he deserves more than a questioning IMO. He can comment on this of all things but can't come here and reply to allegations of bidding fraud in his auctions. Why the intrest in this Rick? I think there is more than we know with this connection. This is just my opinion but something smells fishy.

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by jefferyepayne

I have no problem with your position at all. My only point is that we can either use this forum to constantly complain about grading companies, dealers, bad buyers, bad sellers, etc, etc, etc or try to improve the hobby when given the opportunity. If a dealer shows any sign of wanting to learn more about how to spot fakes, reprints, repacked packs, etc., I think we should take it as an opportunity to educate instead of pile on.

jeff

Jeff, I don't see it as "complaining", it's more of a "calling out". If you or I, or anyone else starts doing something questionable, we should all expect a thorough bashing here on the board.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by T205 GB

Why the intrest in this Rick? I think there is more than we know with this connection. This is just my opinion but something smells fishy.

Not accusing of anything, but just pointing out that the second post he ever made to Net54 was asking how many cards are in a pack of 1961 Fleer Basketball.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=134536

[whitehse]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Not accusing of anything, but just pointing out that the second post he ever made to Net54 was asking how many cards are in a pack of 1961 Fleer Basketball.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=134536

The funny thing about this link is the only person who answered him is an admitted shiller on this thread:

http://forums.collectors.com/message...42&STARTPAGE=2

Will this stuff ever end?

[pepis]

In thread #7 StarPaxMan wrote:



I'm curious to know how this was all brought out into the open. Was it by the pack submitter or did someone blow the whistle on him?[/QUOTE]

A litle before this thread was deleted the CU deleted another thread
(unopened packs with stars on top) was also deleted now if Dan can recover that thread
you'll find what got all this starded in page # 22

[atx840]

Page 1

Page 22

[jwgators]

http://web.archive.org/web/201012060...6&STARTPAGE=22

[pepis]

Originally Posted by atx840

Page 1

Page 22

Chris,
i see you founded now you need page #22 which is the start and continues for 3 or 4 pages,

[atx840]

jwgators beat me to it.

[jwgators]

Just trying to help solve the mystery...

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Here you go, from page 22 through 34 (the entire thread had 127 pages!):

22

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...ient=firefox-a


23

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...ient=firefox-a


24

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...ient=firefox-a


25

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...ient=firefox-a


26

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...ient=firefox-a


27

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...ient=firefox-a


28

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...ient=firefox-a


29

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...ient=firefox-a


30

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...ient=firefox-a


31

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...ient=firefox-a


32

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...ient=firefox-a


33

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...ient=firefox-a


34

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...ient=firefox-a

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Also, what I don't understand is that Page 22 was written in 2010. There seems to be a time disconnect if this is all the sudden a scandal. What am I missing?

[pepis]

Originally Posted by atx840

jwgators beat me to it.

I'm an older man dealer/collector for 44 years now and as a collector
51 years now,, my computer skills are limited, so is pretty impresive to me
how some of you can pull a rabit out of a hat sort of speak, anyways
the start like you see is in page 22 however the real kaos is in the next
2 or 3 pages

[pepis]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

Here you go, from page 22 through 34 (the entire thread had 127 pages!):

22

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...ient=firefox-a


23

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...ient=firefox-a


24

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...ient=firefox-a


25

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...ient=firefox-a


26

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...ient=firefox-a


27

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...ient=firefox-a


28

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...ient=firefox-a


29

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...ient=firefox-a


30

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...ient=firefox-a


31

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...ient=firefox-a


32

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...ient=firefox-a


33

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...ient=firefox-a


34

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...ient=firefox-a

Interesting Don,
this thread was deleted because what is in page 23 and you don't have
page #23 there you have page #22 twice you left the most important
post out!

[WhenItWasAHobby]

I fixed it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Dan can you give a synopsis for those of us who would rather jump in a lake than wade through 50 CU threads?

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Dan can you give a synopsis for those of us who would rather jump in a lake than wade through 50 CU threads?

It appears as though at least one bad pack (1973 Cello with Schmidt Rookie showing) originated from two of the biggest unopened material experts in the hobby.

[Peter_Spaeth]

And is this thought to be fraud or mistake?

[slidekellyslide]

I don't think anyone knows for sure, but this happened in 2010 so I am a bit confused why this is being brought up in this thread.

[pepis]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

It appears as though at least one bad pack (1973 Cello with Schmidt Rookie showing) originated from two of the biggest unopened material experts in the hobby.

It gets better someone posted another equaly bad 73 psa pack trying
to defend the #1 guy, as to say 2 wrongs make a right