Notes from a former card Grader/Authenticator

[bn2cardz]

I recently ended my employment as a grader with CGC grading. While with them I worked primarily in the eBay authentication, but also did some grading when time permitted. I have seen some myths and assumptions consistently prior to my employment and even more so while employed. I am still under a NDA so I can't give specifics, but I did want to dispel some of these wrong ideas I saw circulating.

Myth 1: "Graders are minimum wage random people off the street"
Well I would hope that the fact that I am now outing myself as a grader, you may see that we aren't "random people off the street". There wasn't a single person that graded/authenticated cards that wasn't a collector in some way or another. A lot of us are incognito on social media and at card shows because we want to avoid conflicts of interest and having to answer too many questions that may go against our NDA. Along with that is that, no, we don't make minimum wage. Like any other job wage was a range based on our level of expertise being brought into the company. I will say that my pay was enough to lure me from another career and move my family out of state. I obviously left the company recently, but that is more personal in nature and not due to compensation nor lack of benefits. Sure there are higher paying career paths, but the compensation/benefits certainly wasn't in line with the claim that we make minimum wage.

Myth 2: This one showed up in various forms but something to the idea of "I bought this card on ebay. I doubt anyone there knows anything about this card." The first time I saw a claim like this I laughed, because I was the authenticator and not only had I seen the card, but own a copy of the same subject. I was one of the primary vintage people. Yet, so often I would see comments that questioned that anyone with any knowledge of vintage would see the cards in question and that we all looked at cards with a "modern eye". I was hired specifically because I collected vintage.

Myth 3: "I know what I am buying, I don't need eBay to tell me it is real." I saw this sometimes when an item would fail. This may be on eBay for not disclosing things better, but typically when I saw this I would look back at my notes and see I failed the card for alterations (Color Touch, Reshaped Corners, Built up corners, pressings, Trims), or for blatent mis representation of a card that had creases that were not seen in a listing. Sometimes this myth didn't come from a failing of a card, but just as a slam against the program in general. The problem is we saw bait and switches happening often. So, yes, the image in the listing was authentic, but it wasn't what we received.

Extra notes: This is an office job. So yes there are employees, like any other job out there, that may not put in the same effort or pride into their work. They don't last long as they make us all look bad when they mess something up. However I would suggest that when thinking of a grading company, that like any company, it is individuals that make up the greater company and they aren't all equal. Some of us take pride in our work and some skate by. I have seen this at any company I have worked at and grading was no different. The biggest difference is that if we made a mistake it made its way to social media and everyone in the department would know of your mistake. Some of our best accountability was not being shamed on social media.

Anyways I hope this was enough to remind you that graders are typically collectors also that are in the hobby alongside you. Like most dealers we just wanted to work in the hobby we love and chose grading as the avenue to pursue the dream.

Some may have dealt with me here, but you may also get more of an idea of my collecting habits on twitter (where some already follow and possibly interacted with me):
twitter.com/collecting4me




And because every thread needs a card, I attached one

[swarmee]

Thanks for the info. Luckily I don't think I pushed those types of complaints about the grading companies.

[Flintboy]

Thanks for the post….can you disclose what the pay range is for an entry level grader? I’ve always wondered what the pay scale is, there’s lots of people who think they know….

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by Flintboy

Thanks for the post….can you disclose what the pay range is for an entry level grader? I’ve always wondered what the pay scale is, there’s lots of people who think they know….

I didn't hire people so I don't know the full range. I only know what I made. I don't feel comfortable disclosing that, but I have a stay-at-home wife and 6 children (ages 4-13). So enough to maintain our living situation off my salary. I am now going to work from home, which is a huge reason why I am leaving.

[JollyElm]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

The problem is we saw bait and switches happening often. So, yes, the image in the listing was authentic, but it wasn't what we received.

That alone is worth a Yow-za!!

But, thank you for clarifying that when I complain about my cards getting bad grades, they most likely DESERVE to get bad grades. You've ruined my life.

[111gecko]

Appreciate this summary and I suspect you will get a ton of questions. We all understand if you can/can't answer some of them.

My question: Do graders know who the submission is from (we've all suspected they do) and do they keep track of a "certain" card from that submitter that gets resubmitted multiple times?

What state did you end up in? Hot or cold region.? HAHA!
Thanks!

[Fred]

Is there a 12 step process to coming out as a former TPG grader? I guess admitting it was the first step. Good luck with the final 11 steps.

Interesting insights and thank you for taking the time to share.

What I still can't wrap my head around is the total variance in the perception of the grading standards by different graders working for the same TPG.

Ok, let's not turn this into a TPG bashing thread. It'll be interesting to see what questions come up for our ex-grader on board.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by 111gecko

Appreciate this summary and I suspect you will get a ton of questions. We all understand if you can/can't answer some of them.



My question: Do graders know who the submission is from (we've all suspected they do) and do they keep track of a "certain" card from that submitter that gets resubmitted multiple times?



What state did you end up in? Hot or cold region.? HAHA!

Thanks!

In grading we didn't have access to the submission information.

As far as keeping track of a particular card, I feel that would fall under procedure talk that I can't disclose.

CGC is in Sarasota FL.

[Schlesinj]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

That alone is worth a Yow-za!!

But, thank you for clarifying that when I complain about my cards getting bad grades, they most likely DESERVE to get bad grades. You've ruined my life.

Based on that statement alone, the authentication program has value despite the delay/annoyance.

[jfkheat]

So, you are the guy that said the 1970 Nolan Ryan that I sold on eBay was trimmed. A few weeks later it was graded a 6 by SGC.

[mrreality68]

Thanks for some of the insight into to the world of grading. Would love to hear more especially when the NDA is up

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by jfkheat

So, you are the guy that said the 1970 Nolan Ryan that I sold on eBay was trimmed. A few weeks later it was graded a 6 by SGC.

I see the smiley, so I am sure it isn't personal. However I still felt it was worth a response.

If we failed something we wanted to be sure. If it was a trim it would have been failed by a team effort with multiple opinions given prior to failing.

No one wants to have their work called out. Sure we were anonymous, but not internally. So if we messed up and it was called out on social media or through support, it is very likely we would be talked to about it. No one, at any job, wants to have that type of talk with their boss.

All that said, is it possible I made a mistake, even if it wasn't on your specific card? Absolutely, I am human afterall, there is no way I didn't make a mistake at some point.

[swarmee]

So here's a question that many are probably wondering:
A rare/scarce vintage card is bought through eBay AG that is real, but has minor undisclosed alterations. Who is resposible for recommending to the company that the buyer still get a chance to accept the card as is rather than cancelling the sale? Most buyers would prefer to fill a hole in their collection rather than have it unilaterally cancelled without input.

[Fred]

For clarification - which TPG did you work for?

Reading through your original post, were you indicating people would provide commentary on the cards in their submissions?

When I submitted cards, I'd put the ACC info on it and pray the TPGrader didn't totally hose the grade. I can remember once in a blue moon that I'd leave a comment and it usually was regarding encapsulating the card with an AUTH opinion if the grader felt it was altered in any way. What would drive me nuts is that receiving a card with the rejection slip/label and having wasted the money on that opinion. I felt, if an "A" label is what the card should have, then slab it anyway. I could always break it out if I wanted to. Biggest difference in a grade on a resubmission I had was through PSA. The initial grade was an "Auth". I resubmitted and received an "8".

[raulus]

We have so little as it is!

Must you take all of our most cherished myths away?

How can we complain about the TPGs without these myths to support our argument?

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by raulus

We have so little as it is!

Must you take all of our most cherished myths away?

How can we complain about the TPGs without these myths to support our argument?

Then again, as far as I know the OP only worked for the CGC company. All our cherished myths can stay intact for the other grading companies.

Brian

[Pjere]

This may be mildly irrelevant to your situation but I thought that I’d ask. eBay has spent a ton on this authentication process with high end packaging and utilizing grading companies to authenticate. Have you seen it make a difference from when they started the program up until you left in the amount of fake cards sent by sellers?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Kinda surprised that somebody with over 3000 posts has a username I don't ever recall seeing before. Recent name change, or did I miss 3019 of your posts?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

Kinda surprised that somebody with over 3000 posts has a username I don't ever recall seeing before. Recent name change, or did I miss 3019 of your posts?

Never changed his id (that I can remember)... only a moderator can change an id...
.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

It was an honest question. Username is unfamiliar somehow.

[ALBB]

Yes, very interesting look into that job

[Leon]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

It was an honest question. Username is unfamiliar somehow.

old age.....
.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by swarmee

So here's a question that many are probably wondering:
A rare/scarce vintage card is bought through eBay AG that is real, but has minor undisclosed alterations. Who is resposible for recommending to the company that the buyer still get a chance to accept the card as is rather than cancelling the sale? Most buyers would prefer to fill a hole in their collection rather than have it unilaterally cancelled without input.

I understand wanting a look behind the curtains, but I can't really talk about the process. But it is worth mentioning again that we were all collectors, so we understood the mindset of a collector wanting an item that would be hard (or even impossible) to replace if they didn't get the item now no matter the condition.

Originally Posted by Fred

For clarification - which TPG did you work for?

Reading through your original post, were you indicating people would provide commentary on the cards in their submissions?

When I submitted cards, I'd put the ACC info on it and pray the TPGrader didn't totally hose the grade. I can remember once in a blue moon that I'd leave a comment and it usually was regarding encapsulating the card with an AUTH opinion if the grader felt it was altered in any way. What would drive me nuts is that receiving a card with the rejection slip/label and having wasted the money on that opinion. I felt, if an "A" label is what the card should have, then slab it anyway. I could always break it out if I wanted to. Biggest difference in a grade on a resubmission I had was through PSA. The initial grade was an "Auth". I resubmitted and received an "8".

CSG/CGC is the company I came from. My references were to typical messages I would see in the community (message boards and social media). The only notes I would see in grading is if there was a min grade or auth only requested. Graders aren't opening and processing the mail, so unless it directly affects our grading of the card we wouldn't see it (like the submitter information).

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

Then again, as far as I know the OP only worked for the CGC company. All our cherished myths can stay intact for the other grading companies.

Brian

Oh, you can keep any myth you want, but I wanted to humanize the position a little . I am no longer in the field so really it won't affect me going forward. I just know that prior to taking the job it was hard to find any grader (former or current) that would publicly talk about it. So I thought I would add a little insight from my POV.

Originally Posted by Pjere

This may be mildly irrelevant to your situation but I thought that I’d ask. eBay has spent a ton on this authentication process with high end packaging and utilizing grading companies to authenticate. Have you seen it make a difference from when they started the program up until you left in the amount of fake cards sent by sellers?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I felt like it ebbed and flowed. It was as though I would get a large flood of fakes, then it would be quiet for a month or two and it would happen again. I wondered if it was just fraudsters testing the waters again to see if they could get something by that they didn't get by previously.

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

Kinda surprised that somebody with over 3000 posts has a username I don't ever recall seeing before. Recent name change, or did I miss 3019 of your posts?

As Leon has stated I have been around with the same name. I honestly don't recall your ID either. It just appears that our paths haven't crossed much. That said, I will go back and edit my profile now to put in my full name since this may be a little too close to an opinion and I don't want to break the rules.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Funny, I certainly recall your actual name! Just not your username, I guess!

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by Leon

old age.....
.

Not yet, but I've certainly been getting some reminders that I'm not the young guy who started in this hobby so long ago.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

CSG/CGC is the company I came from. My references were to typical messages I would see in the community (message boards and social media). The only notes I would see in grading is if there was a min grade or auth only requested. Graders aren't opening and processing the mail, so unless it directly affects our grading of the card we wouldn't see it (like the submitter information).

I was hoping that "CSG" in the original post was at typo and that it was SGC instead. Please don't take this the wrong way but (IMHO) it would be more interesting if you worked for PSA or SGC because those are two biggest volume TPGs which means the business operations may be a little different because of the number of employees a larger TPG would have when compared to a smaller TPG. The biggest problem with TPGs is the consistency in how inconsistent the grading standards are applied to cards. Smaller TPGs probably do a better job than the larger TPGs (until they hit that point of no return and start acting like the larger TPGs).

So far, I've only purchased one card that is graded by CSG and it's graded correctly which helps build confidence in that TPG. I'm probably like most collectors and when I see any TPG slabbed card, I focus heavily on what I can actually see in scans/pictures (and many times, left shaking my head).

[CardPadre]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

If it was a trim it would have been failed by a team effort with multiple opinions given prior to failing.

First, thanks for posting and being willing to chat a bit! I went to the summer camp/hiring event/whatever CSG had a couple years ago for fun to see what all could be learned.

An important takeaway from the above is that there is basically no such thing as "evidence" of trimming (outside of blatantly sloppy work). Highly skilled trimming is essentially undetectable and it's actually dishonest of all TPGs to use the phrase "evidence" when it's just a guess and opinion. If the TPGs were required to provide the evidence they supposedly have of a trim...you'd get crickets, because they don't actually have any.

Again, not directed specifically at any particular TPG, it's all of them. Cheers!

[timzcardz]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

Kinda surprised that somebody with over 3000 posts has a username I don't ever recall seeing before. Recent name change, or did I miss 3019 of your posts?

No stranger to the username. As indicated in my signature I've even done some deals with him, and if I remember correctly it was both buying and selling!

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by CardPadre

First, thanks for posting and being willing to chat a bit! I went to the summer camp/hiring event/whatever CSG had a couple years ago for fun to see what all could be learned.



An important takeaway from the above is that there is basically no such thing as "evidence" of trimming (outside of blatantly sloppy work). Highly skilled trimming is essentially undetectable and it's actually dishonest of all TPGs to use the phrase "evidence" when it's just a guess and opinion. If the TPGs were required to provide the evidence they supposedly have of a trim...you'd get crickets, because they don't actually have any.



Again, not directed specifically at any particular TPG, it's all of them. Cheers!

Oh there is still evidence left behind. It would be disingenuous to take what I stated and deduce that there is no evidence. However, it is always good to get a second opinion.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by Fred

I was hoping that "CSG" in the original post was at typo and that it was SGC instead. Please don't take this the wrong way but (IMHO) it would be more interesting if you worked for PSA or SGC because those are two biggest volume TPGs which means the business operations may be a little different because of the number of employees a larger TPG would have when compared to a smaller TPG. The biggest problem with TPGs is the consistency in how inconsistent the grading standards are applied to cards. Smaller TPGs probably do a better job than the larger TPGs (until they hit that point of no return and start acting like the larger TPGs).



So far, I've only purchased one card that is graded by CSG and it's graded correctly which helps build confidence in that TPG. I'm probably like most collectors and when I see any TPG slabbed card, I focus heavily on what I can actually see in scans/pictures (and many times, left shaking my head).

That is fine that you prefer those two companies. Again I no longer work in the industry, so it means nothing to me. SGC doesn't do eBay authentication.

[steve B]

Possibly not answerable, but was there pressure or expectations of you for quickness?

Like them wanting a certain number of cards per hour or day? (Obviously that number would be secret)

[Fred]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

That is fine that you prefer those two companies. Again I no longer work in the industry, so it means nothing to me. SGC doesn't do eBay authentication.

To say I prefer those companies is a bit inaccurate. I used to like SGC more than PSA, then SGC turned into PSA-Jr with all the inconsistent grading. At this point, I don't care for either PSA or SGC. However, I'm encouraged by what I've seen from CSG (from a grading standpoint). I won't pretend to say I understand the ebay authentication "thing".

[Svabinsky78]

Always liked CSG. I was a bit bummed out when they went CGC route. I always thought CSG graders were fair and accurate. With the exception of one card (where I missed a surface issue), their grade was either spot on or 1/2 grade in one or the other direction with my prediction (and I am conservative). It was never the PSA Russian roulette. And the CSG slabs are lovely.

My CSG 61 Kaat. Really sharp and clean card. Those scratches in the upper right are on the case, not the card.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

I understand wanting a look behind the curtains, but I can't really talk about the process. But it is worth mentioning again that we were all collectors, so we understood the mindset of a collector wanting an item that would be hard (or even impossible) to replace if they didn't get the item now no matter the condition.

I know from experience that this empathetic understanding does not stop CSG from unilaterally nixing a deal between a consenting buyer and consenting seller who reached a deal on eBay and who do not care one white for a fourth parties consent to their deal.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Fred

I was hoping that "CSG" in the original post was at typo and that it was SGC instead. Please don't take this the wrong way but (IMHO) it would be more interesting if you worked for PSA or SGC because those are two biggest volume TPGs which means the business operations may be a little different because of the number of employees a larger TPG would have when compared to a smaller TPG. The biggest problem with TPGs is the consistency in how inconsistent the grading standards are applied to cards. Smaller TPGs probably do a better job than the larger TPGs (until they hit that point of no return and start acting like the larger TPGs).

CSG (now CGC) grades more cards per month that SGC, just FYI. Here are the number of items graded by TPG for last month.

..

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by CardPadre

First, thanks for posting and being willing to chat a bit! I went to the summer camp/hiring event/whatever CSG had a couple years ago for fun to see what all could be learned.

An important takeaway from the above is that there is basically no such thing as "evidence" of trimming (outside of blatantly sloppy work). Highly skilled trimming is essentially undetectable and it's actually dishonest of all TPGs to use the phrase "evidence" when it's just a guess and opinion. If the TPGs were required to provide the evidence they supposedly have of a trim...you'd get crickets, because they don't actually have any.

Again, not directed specifically at any particular TPG, it's all of them. Cheers!

There are plenty of cards that bear very clear evidence of trimming. But I agree with your broader point that a lot of trimmed cards simply are not detectable. This is been shown to be true by countless examples posted by BODA with their before and after pics. Particularly with modern cards that have razor-sharp edges. People expect these graders to perform miracles sometimes. I swear they'd expect that you should be able to hand a grader a piece of paper that you cut with 3 pairs of scissors and have him tell you which cut came from which pair of scissors.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

Oh there is still evidence left behind. It would be disingenuous to take what I stated and deduce that there is no evidence. However, it is always good to get a second opinion.

Are you of the opinion that there is always evidence left behind from trimmed cards then? Or at least that there is usually evidence left behind, and that when a trimmed card slips through, it could have or should have been caught, and that the only reason these surface with some degree of regularity is because of the sheer volume of cards that these companies are handling?

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by Snowman

CSG (now CGC) grades more cards per month that SGC, just FYI. Here are the number of items graded by TPG for last month.

..

I wonder how many of those are Pokey-Man.

And for Andy: How incredbly tired are you of Pokemon? Do card graders get flooded with violent thoughts whenever they run into anything Pokeman-related in the course of their daily lives?

[parkplace33]

Great post! Thanks for starting the thread.

Question for you.. What is CSG's plan on grading more vintage? Is this a priority? or are they not concentrating on it? I haven't seen much CSG vintage at card shows or in auctions.

[JustinD]

Thanks for opening the secret door a tad Andy!

One question that you may or may not be able to answer, how much time do you feel is spent on average looking at a singular card? Is their a company standard for review time?

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by JustinD

Thanks for opening the secret door a tad Andy!

One question that you may or may not be able to answer, how much time do you feel is spent on average looking at a singular card? Is their a company standard for review time?

You can get a pretty good estimate of this by knowing that PSA employs ~125 full time graders (stated by Nate in a recent podcast) and they grade roughly 1.2M cards per month.

I don't know what a typical day looks like, but I assume they get breaks and have meetings, take vacations, and get sick like everyone else. Let's say they spend 6 hours per day actually grading cards on average, so that's about 120 hours per month. Multiply that by 125 graders, and you get 15,000 man hours. Take 1.2 million cards divided by 15,000 hours and you get 80 cards graded per hour. So that's 45 seconds per card.

[butchie_t]

Andy,

I commend you on your decision to talk about your previous employment. Please be careful and don't put yourself into a corner you may not be able to escape from.

Regards,

Butch.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

You can get a pretty good estimate of this by knowing that PSA employs ~125 full time graders (stated by Nate in a recent podcast) and they grade roughly 1.2M cards per month.

I don't know what a typical day looks like, but I assume they get breaks and have meetings, take vacations, and get sick like everyone else. Let's say they spend 6 hours per day actually grading cards on average, so that's about 120 hours per month. Multiply that by 125 graders, and you get 15,000 man hours. Take 1.2 million cards divided by 15,000 hours and you get 80 cards graded per hour. So that's 45 seconds per card.

That should be very easy to accomplish. Every time I have pre graded my cards I spend way less time than that per card. Then you have the ones that just look off and you need to spend more time on. I would guess 10-15 seconds of grading with 30-35 seconds of data entry per card to get that 45 second time.

To the OP who I have noticed on here before. Thanks Andy for sharing what you did.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Removing and re-inserting each card into the Card Saver with care has to eat up 5-10 seconds of each 45. Some are stubborn, some are fragile. Most would take less time, of course...

[CardPadre]

Originally Posted by JustinD

Thanks for opening the secret door a tad Andy!

One question that you may or may not be able to answer, how much time do you feel is spent on average looking at a singular card? Is their a company standard for review time?

Originally Posted by steve B

Possibly not answerable, but was there pressure or expectations of you for quickness?

Like them wanting a certain number of cards per hour or day? (Obviously that number would be secret)

Maybe the OP will chime in, but a straight quote from Andy Broome's (CGC) mouth to my ears was that a fully trained and up-to-speed card grader will grade 40-50 cards per hour.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Are you of the opinion that there is always evidence left behind from trimmed cards then? Or at least that there is usually evidence left behind, and that when a trimmed card slips through, it could have or should have been caught, and that the only reason these surface with some degree of regularity is because of the sheer volume of cards that these companies are handling?

That would be my opinion.
Is it possible to make it undetectable? Probably. Do the people trimming have the knowledge and ability to do that? Less likely.

[Bigdaddy]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

Oh there is still evidence left behind. It would be disingenuous to take what I stated and deduce that there is no evidence. However, it is always good to get a second opinion.

If there was really no evidence left behind, how would you know it? It's really a matter of how much evidence and is it to a detectable level when examining a card for less than one minute.

What BODA does to detect alterations takes much longer than one minute per card.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

Removing and re-inserting each card into the Card Saver with care has to eat up 5-10 seconds of each 45. Some are stubborn, some are fragile. Most would take less time, of course...

I would seriously fail the card grader test. Takes me about a minute and a half just to put a card in a card saver while being paranoid the whole time I'm going to lift up a spot on a corner, just sliding it down into the holder.

45 seconds per card, while being able to also detect micro-trimming, alterations, factory cuts, non-factory cuts, etc...

GTFOH with that!

Maybe 2023 Pokemons straight out of the pack...but vintage? No way.

Takes me like 10 minutes under a light, magnifying glass, and my own constantly trailing off thoughts to even come to a guess what a T206 I'm submitting "might" come back as...and I'm usually wrong.

[Beercan collector]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

I would seriously fail the card grader test. Takes me about a minute in a half just to put a card in a card saver while being paranoid the whole time I'm going to lift up a spot on a corner, just sliding it down into the holder.

45 seconds per card, while being able to also detect micro-trimming, alterations, factory cuts, non-factory cuts, etc...

GTFOH with that!

Maybe 2023 Pokemons straight out of the pack...but vintage? No way.

Takes me like 10 minutes under a light, magnifying glass, and my own constantly trailing off thoughts to even come to a guess what a T206 I'm submitting "might" come back as...and I'm usually wrong.

+1 If they’re grading cards in 45 seconds they are overcharging

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Beercan collector

+1 If they’re grading cards in 45 seconds they are overcharging

That's a good point and brings up this question for the OP. Is significantly more time spent grading a higher value card than a low value card?