Are the autograph auth. folks absolute idiots?

Leon · #1 06-17-2009, 09:09 AM

Seeing the idiotic JSA stickers ON the cards, in the autographed card thread, made me think of doing this thread. Maybe if they (JSA) read this board they will start getting the idea about their little stickers. I just received some photos from the recent MEARS auction and they have the damn JSA stickers on the FRONT of them. I also have a great type card with a sticker on the front of it. I have to say I think this is one of the worst, most idiotic things I can think of doing to an antiquity......They have to be absolute idiots to keep doing this...imho. Does anyone that reads this board know the principals very well? If so please show them this thread and ask for an explanation. (there can't be one it's so dumb),......best regards

T206Collector · #2 06-17-2009, 09:21 AM

JSA offers three ways of having your signed baseball card authenticated:

1. LOA with a scan of the image
2. Encapsulation via BVG
3. Sticker on the back

Some people want their items tagged and don't mind the ancillary damage. This is a service for them. JSA doesn't decide -- the customer does. JSA is neutral as to the impact on the value/appearance of the item being tagged. JSA is also not alone among autograph authenticators in offering such a service. This is a pretty common means of authenticating baseball items.

I don't think JSA has anything to explain here. But I will concur that I hate it and that I peeled the sticker off my E91 autographed McBride card because I preferred the oval of paper loss to the unsightly sticker.

From Autographed E91

slidekellyslide · #3 06-17-2009, 09:25 AM

I would prefer they put the sticker on the back of the photo....really was it necessary to put the sticker on the front of this?

Leon · #4 06-17-2009, 09:27 AM

Sure, the customer can ask for what they want to but even offering a service that almost destroys the appearance of a card or photo is idiotic in my opinion. Grading companies don't offer to destroy cards as a service...why would JSA? Just my opinion on this...but when I got my photo the other day I was not too happy about the sticker on front....I guess some people could like them but I don't know how...

I should add that I still think they are probably decent authenticators and will still submit to them...but this sticker thing isn't smart at all, again...imho

T206Collector · #5 06-17-2009, 09:33 AM

...it is ridiculous to single out JSA.

From the PSA/DNA FAQ:

Q: I do not want a label on my collectible item. What are my options?
A: The application of invisible DNA laced-ink, in conjunction with our tamper-evident label and matching Certificate of Authenticity, is the PSA/DNA security matrix which will identify your collectible as certified. However, if you do not want the tamper-evident label on your item(s) you can request that the label be placed on the Letter of Authenticity (LOA). Be aware that items with fees of under $50.00 will require the label on the item unless you up-grade the Certificate of Authenticity (COA) to an LOA and check the appropriate box on the submission form.

Here's a GAI photo authenticated by GAI with a sticker on the front:

http://www.mlbfansite.com/authentic-...eling-gai.html

I could go on all day with examples throughout the industry. Blame the "game," not the "player"....

canjond · #6 06-17-2009, 09:33 AM

Leon,

I believe Jodi is a former employee and knows them well.

- Jon

3-2-count · #7 06-17-2009, 09:34 AM

This should be plain common sense by anyone in our hobby. Agreed.
Absolutely ridiculous to put the sticker on the item at all!!!!!!!!!!

slidekellyslide · #8 06-17-2009, 09:35 AM

I don't care who is doing it...if they can't do it without ruining it they shouldn't do it at all....that's absolutely insane to me that they put a sticker on the back of your card.

packs · #9 06-17-2009, 09:37 AM

Sticker is definitely an eyesore but I understand why they do it. As a collector, I want to be sure that the item authenticated is the very same item I'm buying. The sticker provides that service when an item can't be slabbed. Otherwise you're just working on a scan on the LOA, and that's a leap of faith to me.

Leon · #10 06-17-2009, 09:38 AM

You could go on and on but it is indefensible in my opinion. Because everyone does something that is absolutely stupid doesn't make it not so.....sorry this is just my rant for the day. If someone that is smart jumps off of a cliff are you going to?

Jon- I am aware Jodi is a former employee.

This is not a personal attack on JSA it's trying to make the hobby a bit better. Who here doesn't think that putting a sticker on the front of a photo or card isn't stupid? Please explain so I can be enlightened.

T206Collector · #11 06-17-2009, 09:39 AM

34 Goudey Gehringer PSA/DNA authenticated with sticker on reverse.

T206Collector · #12 06-17-2009, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon

This is not a personal attack on JSA

Uh, sure it is. Check the title of the thread. I absolutely abhor the practice and think it is totally ridiculous. But to single out JSA -- or any company -- for an industry-wide practice, is unfair.

HRBAKER · #13 06-17-2009, 09:45 AM

"....really was it necessary to put the sticker on the front of this?"

It's your guarantee that someone took their best guess!

Leon · #14 06-17-2009, 09:46 AM

Then I am unfair. Can we at least agree on that?

calvindog · #15 06-17-2009, 09:58 AM

JSA, PSA, who cares who does it - it's idiotic. And if the customer wants the card shredded does that mean JSA or PSA will do it? Just put the damn thing in a slab with the grade up top. PSA and SGC don't give customers the opportunity to have a sticker with the grade of the card put on the back, so why are autographed cards treated differently?

Doug · #16 06-17-2009, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calvindog

Just put the damn thing in a slab with the grade up top.

That was exactly what I was getting ready to say, but Jeff beat me to it.

T206Collector · #17 06-17-2009, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calvindog

JSA, PSA, who cares who does it - it's idiotic. And if the customer wants the card shredded does that mean JSA or PSA will do it? Just put the damn thing in a slab with the grade up top. PSA and SGC don't give customers the opportunity to have a sticker with the grade of the card put on the back, so why are autographed cards treated differently?

A. Agreed as to it being an idiotic practice regardless of who does it. Just think the thread title is misleading or unfair (yes, we agree on that Leon) in that regard.

B. PSA and SGC grade cards -- their job is to protect the card. JSA authenticates and grades autographs -- their job is to authenticate the autograph. Their job functions and business requests are really very different. JSA is not in the business of preserving autographs -- unless you want them to have BVG do it, which they are happy to do. They give an opinion as to the authenticity of a signature and then they need to tie that opinion to the autograph, which could be on an infinitely vast type of media. To not have a sticker service in such a business model would be hazardous to their success. And to limit those stickers to a universe regardless of customer taste seems a bit strange to me.

sox1903wschamp · #18 06-17-2009, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calvindog

JSA, PSA, who cares who does it - it's idiotic. And if the customer wants the card shredded does that mean JSA or PSA will do it? Just put the damn thing in a slab with the grade up top. PSA and SGC don't give customers the opportunity to have a sticker with the grade of the card put on the back, so why are autographed cards treated differently?

Agree with this 100%. The Vintage item has already been through decades of who knows what and now a 3rd party is going to knowingly damage an item with a sticker? What? Common sense please. We want these items to last plenty of more decades into the future.

calvindog · #19 06-17-2009, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T206Collector

B. PSA and SGC grade cards -- their job is to protect the card. JSA authenticates and grades autographs -- their job is to authenticate the autograph. Their job functions and business requests are really very different. JSA is not in the business of preserving autographs -- unless you want them to have BVG do it, which they are happy to do. They give an opinion as to the authenticity of a signature and then they need to tie that opinion to the autograph, which could be on an infinitely vast type of media. To not have a sticker service in such a business model would be hazardous to their success. And to limit those stickers to a universe regardless of customer taste seems a bit strange to me.

Paul, you must be bored today --you're really splitting hairs. With your argument PSA and SGC should then only be responsible for offering opinions on the condition of the card. Why not put a sticker on the backs of the cards with that grade on it? The fact is whether you're authenticating autographs or offering a grade for the card's condition, of paramount importance should be the desire to protect the item. There's simply no good reason why JSA or PSA can't just slab the autographed card with a number at the top. As for larger, non-slabbable items, then a discreet sticker on the back or an accompanying letter should do the trick just fine. This isn't rocket science they're undertaking.

If JSA can authenticate Sal Bando's just signed autograph even though he was 3000 miles away at the time the autograph was signed, then I suspect JSA can figure out this problem as well.

T206Collector · #20 06-17-2009, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calvindog

There's simply no good reason why JSA or PSA can't just slab the autographed card with a number at the top.

1. They do this for a fee.
2. They offer a sticker for less money, and it is up to the customer to decide.
3. If SGC or PSA offered a grading sticker for $1, no one would buy it. That is why they don't offer it.

Customer: Do you have a sticker authentication service?
JSA: It depends on what you want to put the sticker on.
Customer: I want to put it on my baseball card.
JSA: Sorry. We don't put stickers on baseball cards.
Customer: PSA will do it.
JSA: Then go to PSA.

Seriously?

calvindog · #21 06-17-2009, 11:31 AM

Yes, and based on the responses in this thread there is major demand for the back of the card sticker. I'm sure many collectors would run to PSA just to get that destructive sticker placed on the backs of their autographed cards.

Rich Klein · #22 06-17-2009, 11:32 AM

what I have gathered from the now infamous Sal Bando video.

The rep from JSA was taking a table at the same show that Bando was signing at and thus Bando was no more than a few hundred feet away. Plus; from watching the video -- I suspect the guy from JSA was a bit "set-up" by the reporter.

Should they have checked said autograph better: of course, but the logic of the show dictated that the autograph was good. I bet that a person with your skills as a lawyer could prove damages to JSA for all that

Regards
Rich

If JSA can authenticate Sal Bando's just signed autograph even though he was 3000 miles away at the time the autograph was signed, then I suspect JSA can figure out this problem as well

barrysloate · #23 06-17-2009, 11:41 AM

What happens if you try to remove the sticker? Does it take a piece of the card with it? If it does, then it ruins the item and is unacceptable. If it doesn't, what stops someone from removing the sticker on a genuine item and reattaching it to a bad one? So either way, it stinks.

FrankWakefield · #24 06-17-2009, 11:52 AM

Two events are occurring, both of which seem senseless to me.

1- JSA puts a sticker on the item. Front is worst, back is bad.

2- People submit their stuff to JSA and PAY them to put a sticker on their stuff.

I used to think the 1st one was the greater transgression, but at least JSA gets paid to do something that seems senseless to me. I now think that the 2nd is worse... here, don't merely put a sticker on my stuff to ruin it, please let me also pay you for the damage you're doing.

Will a day come when some grading company will certify slabbed cards with a sticker on the slab, certifying that the slab company got it right?

Anthony S. · #25 06-17-2009, 12:01 PM

What is the "now infamous" Sal Bando video? I think all this came down when I was taking a break from collecting (and I don't collect autographs).

Incidentally, in the early 1970's my parents were at a small dinner party, maybe 8 people, with Sal Bando and my mom showed up with a half dozen baseballs stuffed in her purse. He graciously signed them, though I suspect he may have wanted to strangle her (not an uncommon sentiment). Giants fan that I am --- he was an Oakland A at the time --- it became my "street catch" ball (the one you don't mind getting torn up by the cement and asphalt when it hits the ground).

Potomac Yank · #26 06-17-2009, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

"....really was it necessary to put the sticker on the front of this?"

It's your guarantee that someone took their best guess!

*
*

HRB, I luv this thread ... don't you?

Rich Klein · #27 06-17-2009, 12:13 PM

But you can get a JSA sticker on an BGS Holder. It's a nicer way to show the autograph AND the card and the autograph is protected. The card looks very nice with the BGS Holder as well.

Rich

drc · #28 06-17-2009, 12:16 PM

I don't like stickers on nice cards and prefer a sticker to be placed on the back of a photo, like most here. However, most of the flat items JSA authenticates involves something like an autograph on a 10 cent 8x10 photo, and the submiter desires a sticker on the item. The item itself has almost no value except for the presence of an authentic autograph.

I bought a bunch of really cheap cards (ala 1990 Fleer) that were autographed and had the JSA sticker on back. It was convenient to have the 'COA' on back. As already noted, I wouldn't want the sticker on a T206, but there can be grey areas for autographed cards (somewhere between T206 and Fleer).

As already noted, collectors now not only have the option to submit cards to Beckett/JSA for holdering (no sticker) but can now sumbit signed 8x10 photos for the same service. One of the advertised qualities for Beckett's big holder is that no sticker or tag has to be placed on the item.

The submitter knows what he is paying for (COA and sticker) when he submits to PSA/DNA or JSA, so much of the blame (if there is blame to be placed) should be placed on the submitter not the company. I was told by Spence when he was at PSA/DNA that they didn't put a sticker on an item when asked not to. Along the lines of some folks in this thread, he said some people said they didn't want a sticker on their Yankees team ball or whatever and PSA/DNA honored that request.

But, as with many folks here, I've seen nice autographed vintage postcard-sized photos and similar, and I've thought, "I don't mind the PSA/DNA sticker, but I wish they put it on the back."

barrysloate · #29 06-17-2009, 12:23 PM

Sorry Rich- I missed it. I got to this thread kind of late.

T206Collector · #30 06-17-2009, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

The card looks very nice with the BGS Holder as well.

I agree -- here is one of my finest examples.

From Autographed T206

Leon · #31 06-17-2009, 01:08 PM

My impetus for this thread was to denote the ruining of our cardboard and photo gems, really by any company. It just so happens my only cards and autos with stickers are JSA, so they get the brunt of my rant. Any company that does this should be chastised, again imo.

Why can't the authenticating companies just say something like

" We can authenticate the xxxx piece but to get it certified forever you will need to have it encapsulated....and here are 3 choices to get that done...We aren't in the business to destroy cards or photos so we don't put silly stickers on them anymore" Would it really be that difficult? As I have already said I will still use JSA but the first time they destroy a piece I give them with one of these BS stickers is the last time I would submit to them. And no, of course I won't request for my item to be destroyed with said sticker.

T206Collector · #32 06-17-2009, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon

Why can't the authenticating companies just say something like . . . . Would it really be that difficult?

I just think there is a volume issue here and that enough customers don't care if their photos or cards have a sticker on the back, especially from a cost basis. If it only costs $8 to have the sticker but $30 to have the encapsulation and you have 15 photos or 16 1987 Topps baseball cards you'd like to get authenticated -- well, that's the real issue. And I don't see PSA/DNA, GAI or JSA giving up on those 15 photos or 16 cards at $8/per. Especially if there is a demand for it, which -- notwithstanding the views of the puritanical pre-war baseball card collector -- there clearly is.

Leon · #33 06-17-2009, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T206Collector

I just think there is a volume issue here and that enough customers don't care if their photos or cards have a sticker on the back, especially from a cost basis. If it only costs $8 to have the sticker but $30 to have the encapsulation and you have 15 photos or 16 1987 Topps baseball cards you'd like to get authenticated -- well, that's the real issue. And I don't see PSA/DNA, GAI or JSA giving up on those 15 photos or 16 cards at $8/per. Especially if there is a demand for it, which -- notwithstanding the views of the puritanical pre-war baseball card collector -- there clearly is.

yeah, that's us...the puritanical guys that don't like our items destroyed. I am about as puritan as Hugh Heffner (I wish

)

T206Collector · #34 06-17-2009, 01:32 PM

Ha. I hope you know I was referring to all of us. We have very strict requirements for keeping our cards unadulterated. Erasures and water soaking are permitted by some, and all of us find wrinkle pressing, coloration, restoration, etc. to be taboo. etc. etc. Applying these standards to stickers on 8 x 10s of [insert modern player name here] is like apples and oranges, is my point.

Leon · #35 06-17-2009, 01:39 PM

I could see your point on my title and have changed it......I still hate those darn stickers though....and my only ones were done by JSA......

bijoem · #36 06-17-2009, 01:41 PM

aren't all autographs forgeries anyway?

who cares if there is a sticker on an a card that is MK already.

T206Collector · #37 06-17-2009, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon

I still hate those darn stickers though.

ME T

!!!

Potomac Yank · #38 06-17-2009, 02:18 PM

Some of you would have loved the autographed T206's within the case of a place called Fantasia back in 1990.

The owner of the store ... Dr Koos.

Rich Klein · #39 06-17-2009, 02:42 PM

With the initials D.D. Ah yes; great New Yawk area memories

I don't have them anymore -- but if you have SCD's from the 80's -- make sure to read their old ads.

Rich

Bicem · #40 06-17-2009, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bijoem

aren't all autographs forgeries anyway?

no, all autographs are real, I mean somebody had to sign them.

T206Collector · #41 06-17-2009, 03:11 PM

...at Fantasia and Dragon's Den when I was a teenager in the late 1980s. One of the guy's who worked at/ran Dragon's Den, Mark Rubin, has been owner/proprietor of American Legends across the street on Central Ave. for over a decade now. (He used to call it One If By Cards, Two If By Comics, which I thought was a much more fun name). You can check his shop out here:

http://www.amerlegends.com/

I certainly agree that autographed T206 cards merit serious scrutiny for obvious reasons. And, wherever possible, I try to have provenance with my collection. The Doyle I showed above was from Jeff Morey himself and I even interviewed him about the autographed cards he sent me, so that I would have as much comfort as possible in my collection of signed T206 cards. (shameless plug - Y'all can hear my interview with him and Lionel Carter on my website.) But it does seem that every time a discussion of signed pre-war cards comes up on this board, so does the name of "Dr. Koos." I find that kind of sad, but not totally unexpected. Frankly, it's the Dr. Kooses of the world that empowered the PSA/DNA and JSA folks.

Potomac Yank · #42 06-17-2009, 03:39 PM

"But it does seem that every time a discussion of signed pre-war cards comes up on this board, so does the name of "Dr. Koos." I find that kind of sad, but not totally unexpected. Frankly, it's the Dr. Kooses of the world that empowered the PSA/DNA and JSA folks."

*
*

Aw come on T206Collector, let's not leave out SGC.
They were the one that gave the OK to the Rosen/KO/SGC fiasco in 2001. and that wasn't even a Koos job.
It was the job of an embarrassing amateur.

cardaholic · #43 06-17-2009, 03:52 PM

A modern mass-produced 8x10 photo is worth pennies except for the autograph. A sticker on the back isn't a problem IMO, and I'm not very bothered by a discreet and unobtrusive one on the front.

A sticker in the white border area of a signed litho (such as the Paluso litho series) doesn't detract from the item either IMO, as long as it doesn't detract from the image or the signature.

As for signed cards, photo cards, postcards, etc., a sticker on the back of a blank-back item, especially a modern item, doesn't diminish the item to me. Covering up pictures or text, OTOH, is absolutely unacceptable to me.

JamesGallo · #44 06-18-2009, 10:54 AM

Wait a sec, is anyone familair with the Beckett Raw card review service, they basically sell the card in a card saver with a sticker. It isn't 100% fool proof but is pretty damn good and the sticker can't be removed. I see no reason why PSA/JSA and anyone else couldn't put a card or photo in a sleeve and seal it like this. The additional costs would be very small and the buyer could even provide the sleeve. This would seem to solve all the problems.

That being said I had a Mantle comic the was signed and authenticed by PSA, I was very clear that I did not want the damn sticker anywhere on the comic. It was included loose when returned. I would say that on balls is it ok, but even then I would prefer it not to be directly on ANY object as it seems to me there is an easy alternative.

James G

Leon · #45 06-18-2009, 11:13 AM

Cardoholic- I don't have an issue with a sticker on the back of a blank backed photo either (especially a newer photo)......and don't have a huge issue (though would prefer not) to have a sticker on a blank backed card, since it's already got an autograph on the front. The photos and card I have, have the sticker on their fronts......those really peeve me....

James G- good thought....

timzcardz · #46 06-18-2009, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesGallo

Wait a sec, is anyone familair with the Beckett Raw card review service, they basically sell the card in a card saver with a sticker. It isn't 100% fool proof but is pretty damn good and the sticker can't be removed. I see no reason why PSA/JSA and anyone else couldn't put a card or photo in a sleeve and seal it like this. The additional costs would be very small and the buyer could even provide the sleeve. This would seem to solve all the problems.

That being said I had a Mantle comic the was signed and authenticed by PSA, I was very clear that I did not want the damn sticker anywhere on the comic. It was included loose when returned. I would say that on balls is it ok, but even then I would prefer it not to be directly on ANY object as it seems to me there is an easy alternative.

James G

Are you saying that you received an unapplied sticker that could then ptoentially be applied to anything?

If my understanding of what you wrote is correct, that in itself is scary.

JamesGallo · #47 06-18-2009, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timzcardz

Are you saying that you received an unapplied sticker that could then ptoentially be applied to anything?

If my understanding of what you wrote is correct, that in itself is scary.

Yes it had a full LOA so the number on the sticker matches the number on the COA. As such you really can't put the sticker on anything as it wouldn't match when you did a search. I think normally they would have put the sticker on the COA.

Regardless this would not concern me, destroying cards and photos is a problem.

Has anyone tried to remove one of these stickers from a ball, I have a feeling they would not stick as well because the ball is curved.

James G