REA reveals a 24 year mystery....the PIEDMONT Plank

[tedzan]

When the famous "Gretzky" PSA8 T206 Wagner in its raw state was being shopped around at the Willow Grove
Philly Show, rumor had it that the Plank was on the same sheet as this Wagner. I well recall this rumor, since I
never bought into the old myth that the T206 Plank was short-printed because its "printing plates were broken".
My theory in the early '80s was that Plank & Wagner were printed on the same sheet and when American Litho.
had to discard the Wagner's....the Plank's were discarded along with the Wagner's. This seemed common sense
to me, since it was believed that the same number of T206 Plank's and Wagner's existed....approx. 50-75 cards
of each.

However, what puzzled many of us "dinosaurs" in the hobby was....where are the PIEDMONT Plank's ? If you re-
call, the PSA8 Wagner has a PIEDMONT 150 back. So, 24 years later, we now know that the old rumor was true.
Good old Charlie Conlon owned the PIEDMONT Plank that was believed to be on the same sheet as the Wagner.

And, what a beauty it is. I thought it would have sold for more than $95K. The fact that it is graded Authentic
is immaterial. This Plank card is absolutely the most unique T206 in the hobby, as there is NO other known full-
color Plank with a PIEDMONT back. All 50-100 Plank cards have the following three SWEET CAPORAL backs......


...........Factory 30............................Factory 25........................................Factory 30



Thank you Rob Lifson for a really great auction....if not one of the best.


Also....did one of our Net54 members win it ?



TED Z

[FrankWakefield]

Great post, Ted.

And a 'pulled' plate makes more sense than a broken plate. Thanks.

[Leon]

One of our members did win it but I am not at liberty to say who....

[e107collector]

I agree with Ted, I thought it would've gone higher in price than it did.

I find it interesting that if this was the Gretzky Wagner mate, why did this card get an authentic grade, but the Wagner got an "8?" They were cut from the same sheet, and graded by the same company. Just my 2 cents.

[Doug]

Originally Posted by e107collector

I agree with Ted, I thought it would've gone higher in price than it did.

I find it interesting that if this was the Gretzky Wagner mate, why did this card get an authentic grade, but the Wagner got an "8?" They were cut from the same sheet, and graded by the same company. Just my 2 cents.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who was wondering the same thing.

[cfc1909]

great info Ted-wish I was the board member who won it

[benjulmag]

Ted,

So I'm clear, are you saying the scarcity of the Plank is because that card "reluctantly" had to be pulled when the Wagner was?

If so, respectfully that raises issues with me. You have in a previous thread made a persuasive argument that the absence/scarcity of various Philadelphia AL team members (Collins (only one pose-excluding the proof), Coombs, Mack, Plank) might be because of business conflicts/loyalties Connie Mack had between caramel and tobacco interests. That made a lot of sense to me. If in fact the only reason Plank was pulled was because of issues Wagner alone had, it makes no sense to me, given Planks significant promenance at the time, why another plate wouldn't be created with his image. After all, T206's were manufactured for two years. Seems to me that if Plank had no issues with his image being used, prudent business practice would literally compel his image be used to sell cigarettes. Philadephia is a major market.

[FrankWakefield]

I can see that if Wagner is whining about his image being used without compensation, and about the same time some of the Athletics players have raised the issue of the use of their image because of their caramel company loyalties or at the request of their owner, then it seems plausible that American Litho would pull the plate that had Wagner and Plank, thereby ridding themselves of two problems. So it still seems consistent to me.

[Mark]

Frank
Remind me what evidence we have that Honus Wagner was whining about his image being used without compensation.
Mark

(quick reply test)

[tedzan]

Your point is....in the form of a question....is worth more than just your 2 cents. It is the "million $$$$$$$ question"....
that should be on every thinking-hobbyist's mind.

However, I will not go there ! ?


TED Z

[e107collector]

Ted, you said that this Plank is the only known full color example of a Piedmont Plank.

Wasn't there another example with the entire right border missing about 10 years ago? I could be wrong, but I will search my older catalogs to verify.

[tedzan]

I'm not quite sure of your question......
"So I'm clear, are you saying the scarcity of the Plank is because that card "reluctantly" had to be
pulled when the Wagner was?"

And, perhaps I wasn't clear when I said that the Plank cards were "discarded" along with the Wagner
cards.

When American Litho. printed the first batch of their PIEDMONT 150 T206's, they were on small sheets.
I read somewhere that their printing press had only a 19-inch (wide) track. They printed many 100's of
sheets which included the major BB stars of the 1908 season (Cubs, Giants, Tigers, including Plank and
Wagner). When they were told to scrap the Wagner cards, they took all the remaining uncut sheets and
discarded the entire sheets. I cannot picture them going to the trouble of scissor-cutting the Wagner's;
and, issuing the remaining cards on these sheets.

There are T206 Subjects in that 150 series that are tougher to find (of course not as tough as Plank or
Wagner). Guys like Burch, M. Brown, Donlin, Evers, Larry Doyle, Reulbach and Schulte that perhaps were
on those sheets.


Now for your 2nd point of reminding me of my more recent theory regarding the possible player rights con-
flict between American Caramel and American Litho. with respect to the Philadelphia A's players. It is still
a valid one....however, I'm mystified to explain how all those SWEET CAPORAL's were issued of Plank ? ?


TED Z

[tedzan]

Hey guys.....correct me if I'm wrong.....the PSA8 Wagner was the very first card graded by PSA.

The Authentic Plank was recently graded by PSA.

....Could it be, that PSA's grading practices are becoming stricter, after all these years ?....

[benjulmag]

Ted,

First, to identify myself, benjulmag is your buddy Corey. I'm still adjusting to this new forum which doesn't have a separate place to post your name (Leon, are you listening?)

Second, I hear what you're saying and, as is always the case with your points, there is much merit to them. I'm just still having issues with Piedmont Wagners and Piedmont Planks. To my knowledge, none are known with original factory cuts. I recognize I'm in the extreme minority with what I'm about to say, but I for one cannot entirely discount what Bill Heitman said on this board some time ago--that in the early 1950's professional printers who had access to original t206 plates made repro cards, including Wagner. Was Heitman hallucinating when he said that? Perhaps. But what if he wasn't? It seems to me that IF someone were to do that, and did so with the intent not to deceive, he/she would intentionally use a different back than the cards were known to be issued in. I for one when I look at the Conlon Piedmont Plank just sold by REA, or the Gretzky Wagner, can't help but notice that they look different (sharper/more colorful) than the Sweet Caporal Planks/Wagners. Yes, that could be because different factories had different printing methodolgies. But maybe it goes beyond that.

But putting that aside, what Barry says is dead on correct. IMO the OVERWHELMING sentiment is that neither the Gretzky Wagner nor the Conlon Plank was issued in a cigarette pack, but were instead cut from a sheet. REGARDLESS what might or might not have been done to the Wagner after that point, the fact that they were cut from a sheet means that both should be graded the SAME way, either both 8's or both A's. I simply don't see how that point can be reasonably disputed. The fact that one is an 8 (and therefore has a purported market value substantially more than the next highest example) while the other is an A (with a market value substantially less than the highest known example) makes no sense and is as good an example as any of how form rules over substance. To go further, does anybody really think that if the Gretzky Wagner was submitted today to PSA (in the same manner as REA recently submitted to them the Conlon Plank), the card would come back anything other than an "A"? Yet because the submission was done years ago at the time of PSA's founding, somehow that 8 has become etched in stone, regardless of the blatant inconsistencies/contradictions that creates.

One of the items in my collection is a final-production-run E93 sheet. The Cobb is in the middle of sheet and (to the naked eye at least) is perfect front and back. Yet if I were to have that card professionally cut with perfect centering/dimensions, it would grade an "A". How can that be while at the same time the most valuable/publicized card in our hobby grades an 8?

[tedzan]

There's a lot of us here that share your....shall I say....skepticism regarding these two cards.

You cited Heitman and one of his "strange" comments. Anyhow, do you recall a time when he chimed
in and told us his first hand knowledge of the PSA grading of the Wagner ?

I tried to find Bill's comments, using the SEARCH feature here; however, this feature does not appear
to function as well as it did in the old Net54.


TED Z

[Jim VB]

Corey,

Go to your profile page and fill out whatever information you're willing to share. One of the options is "Real Name." If you fill in that field, it will appear in all your posts (as it does with Frank Wakefield, above, under his blue, highlighted name.)

[Adam]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Ted,

First, to identify myself, benjulmag is your buddy Corey. I'm still adjusting to this new forum which doesn't have a separate place to post your name (Leon, are you listening?)

Go to user CP, then edit my details, then real name.

[wonkaticket]

May or may have not been said but to be clear there are (2) other Piedmont 150 Planks.

Both came from the Halper Collection and both are handcut like the current one in REA.

Glad to hear a fellow Board Member won! I hung in as long as I could...

Here are the other Planks...

[wonkaticket]

Also I'm not one for hobby legend, but I do find it interesting that there seem to be many more 350 subject Planks that come up vs. 150 subject Planks.

And the visual diff. between that of a 150 and 350 is night and day. 350's always look really bad compared to 150's a real printing change per say. Who knows maybe that is a clue to a printing issue of some sort.....

[jmk59]

I thought the REA lot description for the Plank was a masterful display of tiptoeing around all of these issues.

I don't have it open in front of me, but it vaguely mentioned the early days of grading in which there wasn't as much focus on alterations and whether hand cut from a sheet was the same as trimmed. It also talked generically about printer's sheets.

I thought they went gracefully and perfectly right up to the line of saying "Look. These were both cut from the same sheet and should both be graded Auth by current standards." without actually saying it. They just went on poetically about the days of yore in cards and grading and sheets and Wagners and Planks.

Great job by someone writing that description.

J

[toppcat]

Corey, even if you had the plates how would you match the ink? Especially on the backs, where it would be easier to see a single color not matching what had been printed 40 years prior. What of the card stock? I believe the reprint theory is just hearsay and old hobby legend.

Now, combining the Olbermann first chase card theory and Ted's pulled sheet theory, that is another story and I would like to hear more on that if it's possible.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by toppcat

Now, combining the Olbermann first chase card theory ... .

The chase card idea is very interesting. I believe that ATC may have done some chase cards. The T220 boxing set is found with white or silver borders. Only 1/2 of the set is known in silver. Of those, one card (Mike Donovan) has only 1 known example. My hunch is that this was a chase card and that if an ad medium ever appears we may find some sort of contest. Also, isn't there a missing T227 card (the set advertises 25 but I've been told that no one can seem to checklist more than 24)?

[tedzan]

E107

Thanks for posting this Piedmont Plank (I enlarged your scan. Hope that's fine with you). I knew that there were more
Piedmont Planks; but, I was unaware of this one. I doubt if this Plank was ever in a Piedmont pack. So far, we haven't
yet seen a Factory cut Piedmont Plank that could have been in a Piedmont Cigarette pack.

It would be nice to know how many Piedmont 150 Wagner's exist ? We could then make a correlation as to how many
Piedmont Plank's might be out there ? ?







TED Z

[tedzan]

T206 Plank's with a Sweet Cap 150 Factory 25 back have been confirmed. In fact, a Net54 member has one.


TED Z

[Vintageclout]

Intersting concept and it certainly makes sense. Additional "food for thought".....has anyone entertained the possibility that BOTH Plank and Wagner had their cards removed from circulation considering that there are NO T201, T202 and T205 Planks???? While there are T204 Ramly Plank's, there are not a significant number of them in circulation and the Ramly was, likewise, issued in 1909. Could Plank have also "pulled the plug" on his Ramly issue as well??? No one can really know for sure but is seems a huge coincidence that Plank is absent on all other MAJOR tobacco issues (other than the 1909 Ramly)! Two other thoughts....

1) I am also wondering if the "removed T206 sheet" applies, has anyone considered the rarity of the other T206 cards on that particular sheet?

2) If Plank, indeed, refused to have his image use to advertise "post" 1909 tobacco cards.....what does that say about the desirability of the T204 Plank?

Best Regards,
Joe T.

[tedzan]

I addressed the scarcity of the T206 Plank in the old Net54 forum....thread titled:

" My T206 Plank theory....and, what's your guess ? "

Where I make a good case for the American Caramel Co. (ACC) forcing the American Lithographic Co. to stop issuing their T206 Plank.

ACC produced their E91 and E90 sets in 1908; therefore, having first rights to their hometown (Philadelphia A's) players and especially
the two "Eddie's" (Collins and Plank).

You can try the SEARCH function here to dig up this thread that dates back to early 2007.


TED Z

[jlynch1960]

I've had trouble with the story about the the Gretzky Wagner being cut from a sheet since I read the supposed details in the book "The Card" some time ago. Mastro supposedly required that a Plank be thrown in as well as some other important cards when he bought the Gretzky Wagner, but what doesn't make sense is where are the other high quality Wagers and Planks with Piedmont backs that would have been cut from the same sheet?

All of the accounts say the card was cut from a sheet, not a strip. On a sheet, every card above and below the best Plank and Wagner would also be a Plank and a Wagner. We know that this is how the sheets were printed since you see miscut cards that show the same player's name at the top of the miscut card, instead of some other player's name. Accordingly, depending on the length of a sheet, there would be many other high quality Piedmont Wagners and Planks (also with hand cut borders), none of which have surfaced in 25 years. No one in there right mind would say "let's take just two and throw the rest away."

Also, the Wagner proof strip that was supposedly found in the pocket of his uniform has, of course, the Wagner card and four different players, none of whom is Plank. Is there another proof strip out there with both Wagner and Plank?

Perhaps it requires some lost knowledge of the printing process employed in 1909, but from a manufacturing standpoint, the existence of the sheet from which these cards were supposedly cut, just doesn't make sense.

I posted on this same subject a couple of months back, but people seemed more interested in talking about how I misspelled Gretzky's name and hockey cards instead.

[Leon]

The only other Piedmont Wagner I know of is owned by my good friend John Esch....who lurks on our board. It is the Bray one I believe....that had the letter accompanying it. It was sold in a Mastro Auction some 4-5 yrs ago. I didn't read all of the above posts so that one might have been mentioned already. It is in an SGC AUT holder as I think it's handcut. Don't hold me to that but I think that is what I remember...

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by jlynch1960

Perhaps it requires some lost knowledge of the printing process employed in 1909, but from a manufacturing standpoint, the existence of the sheet from which these cards were supposedly cut, just doesn't make sense.

What then is your view of what these cards are? Do you think they are regular issue cards that were inserted in cigarette packs, are factory (hand) cut proofs, repros, ...?

[T206Collector]

If Plank and Wagner were removed after a short run, and other cards were added to the remainder of that run, one would expect that the ones that were added would be somewhat shortprinted. Since no other T206 cards appear to be as short printed as the Plank and Wagner, it appears plausible that the short printed 150s could have been late additions to the sheet space once occupied Plank and Wagner. What is perhaps more plausible is that two other unknown 150s took those spots and are only somewhat shortprinted -- to the point that 100 years later we don't even notice the relatively short supply.

[ethicsprof]

Sorry i'm late in responding to your question, Ted.
i'm a little slow remembering which threads to go back to and all the way
through---still learning the new ropes.

Epistemological verifiability was a way to play with my UNC-Chapel Hill
bud, Brian W. ---a little academic bantering between a Davidson Wildcat and
a CH--Tarheel. When he refers to the word 'proof', it causes those of trained in philosophy during the archaic period to hustle to the field of epistemology
(how do we KNOW something---how do we PROVE it---how do we VERIFY
the reliability of our criteria composing our proof). I could go on but i know better.
but thanks for asking, old friend. and thanks for the word 'elucidate'---one of my absolute favorites.

best,
barry

[tedzan]

Thanks for the "elucidation"........how's about that, for a variant on one of your favorites ?

Back to vintage cards....did you check-out my latest suggestion to you on the "Revisting Quintuplicate" thread ?



TED Z

[mkdltn]

A Real proof would have register marks. and no back image. The proofs were pulled from the smaller original stone on which the art was executed. These were the printers guide. Transfers were taken from the smaller stones and transferred to the larger stones in multiple. During this process the crop marks were removed.

The term proof could also possibly apply to the first few sheets from the initial production run that were used for promotional purposes such as salesman's samples and copyright files. Those may not have a back image.

Some of the cards you have with missing colors may be progressive proof images. When a proof book was made an impression of each color was pulled and then an image was pulled of the combination of those colors.

American lithographic company proof books are quite plentiful for all of their other work. I own several from them and other litho houses. I imagine that the proof books suffered the same fate that many cigar label proof books in the 70s and 80s suffered by being disassembled and the pages sold separately. In the case of T206 cards they may have been cut into individual cards.

I am working on a site to illustrate the process in detail but it is slow going as I can only get to it on occasion. I will get it out and start a new thread when I finally launch the darn thing.

[jmk59]

Originally Posted by jlynch1960

...but what doesn't make sense is where are the other high quality Wagers and Planks with Piedmont backs that would have been cut from the same sheet?

... Accordingly, depending on the length of a sheet, there would be many other high quality Piedmont Wagners and Planks (also with hand cut borders), none of which have surfaced in 25 years. No one in there right mind would say "let's take just two and throw the rest away."

Wow. I think this is a great great question and am not sure why it is not generating some speculation. I've never even thought about it.

Suppose the sheet was 5x5. Where are the other 4 Wagners and the other 4 Planks? Is it possible someone is sitting on them all these years? Is it possible they did get thrown away, not only to protect the 1/1 scarcity of the high condition of the Wagner/Plank but also maybe to conceal the fact that these were cut from a sheet? Or is it more likely that the early sheets did not include any individual player more than once?

I'm thinking the last is more likely - that each player only appeared once - even though miscuts suggest otherwise. Maybe they changed the process at some point. Would have been nice if the original sheet had been left intact for at least educational purposes.

J

[tedzan]

My theory is that the T206 were initially printed in 12 card formats. Or as few as 6 cards/sheet.
If you look at the composition of each series' (150, 350, 460, and the So. Lgrs.), there is com-
mon denominator of six

In any event, I think you answered your own question with this....
"Or is it more likely that the early sheets did not include any individual player more than once?"


I agree....multiples of Wagner, Plank (or any other Subject) on a sheet just did not happen on
the 1st printing.

And, as for anyone hoarding multiples of Plank or Wagner......that defies everything we know
about normal human behavior. I would believe that, only if these colorful little pieces of card-
board were still worth pennies( or a dollar or two).


TED Z

[Brian Weisner]

Hi Ted and Joann,
I'm sorry to disagree, but all of the miscut cards from all series, including the 1st indicate otherwise.... Almost every miscut with a name at the top or bottom is of the same player, so it's obvious that multiples were printed on each sheet. It's also apparent from the numerous scrap cards that the players were different horizontally....

Be well Brian


PS I don't know about hoarding, but I do know that one quiet collector had 3 Wagner's at one time....

[jmk59]

Brian,

Is there any chance that the layout of a player repeating vertically on a sheet came in later production runs? If the entire sheet was one big plate, I can't imagine it would change. But if each player was an individual plate, and then the individual plates were assembled to make the sheet - kind of like a printing press - then I could see one or two rearrangements, especially after a few early runs.

Ted's explanation seems like the only one possible for jlynch's question. I agree with Ted that it seems highly unlikely that there were originally more than one Piedmont Wagner or Plank and that the dups were somehow hoarded or destroyed. Much more likely that only one of each ever existed on the found sheet.

And if there was a sheet, and there was only one Wagner and one Plank on that sheet, then they were not repeated vertically despite the top/bottom name patterns of known miscuts.

There are only two possibilities: multiple Wagners and Planks on the sheet in question, or not. I'm thinking not, but I don't know.

And I still think it is a really great question, because having no multiples flies in the face of conventional wisdom on the vertical repeats. Having multiples creates a mystery that is awesome to consider.

J