1916-1920 Date for "Big Head" Strip Cards

[Matt]

OK, here's a project for the board. SCD lists the W-UNC "Big Head" strip cards as being somewhere in the 1916-1920 range, but couldn't narrow it down further. Based on the players included, and the images on the cards (e.g. a few have team emblems) can we get a more accurate year? The SCD is possibly incomplete, so if you have any information to share that might be helpful, it would be appreciated.

Here are some of Leon's for reference:

[Matt]

I humbly submit for your consideration, my findings for the issue date of these strip cards. I understand that this topic may be a bit controversial since many RC collectors use the "1916-1920" dating to claim a 1916 rookie of a player, but please read with an open mind, as if you were coming to figure the date of this issue without any preconceived notions.

First a few words of clarification - when SCD lists these as "1916-1920" it is not because they were issued throughout that period, like the "1902-1911" designation on W600s. It is because they couldn't narrow the date based on playing careers of players included in the set. There is no evidence I know of, to suggest these were issued at more then one time.

In dating sets where no date is specified, we always assume the sets were issued at one time, unless player & team designations make that impossible. Otherwise, we would date all issues as a huge range starting from when the first included player started playing to when the last included player stopped playing. e.g. how do we know E96s were issued in 1910 and not over a series of years from 1905-1915 (or whatever the correct years are)? Again, the answer is, we always go with the assumption of a set issued at one time and find the time that all of the player/team combinations fit (1910 for the E96 issue). This is nothing new - just important to clarify before we move on.

With that in mind, we must consider who was included in this 20 card issue. With only 20 cards, the manufacturers certainly would want players who were well known. Therefore, the list of players included in the issue provides a great indication of when these cards were issued. Specifically:

Leon Cadore - he made only 7 appearance in 1915 where he racked up an 0-2 record and a 5.57 ERA. The following season he made only one appearance. As such, it's doubtful these were issued in 1916 or 1917 (the years following those paltry seasons).

Joe Judge - he played in only 12 games in 1915, again pointing to the 1916 issue date being doubtful.

Sam Rice - the future HOFer played in only 4 games in 1915, and only 1/3 of a season in 1916, again, pointing towards 1918 as being the earliest possible issue date.

Ping Bodie - after batting .229 during the 1914 season (and an argument with his manager) Bodie was sent down to the minors, and wasn't recalled until the 1917 season. It seems impossible they would pick him as one of the 20 players to issue, if the set was issued in 1916 or 1917 and the earliest this issue would include him is 1918.

As such, I think we can narrow down the issue to 1918 at the earliest and therefore suggest the issue be dated 1918-1920.

Interestingly, all 4 of those players had wonderful years in 1917. In 264 innings over 37 games, Cadore had a 2.45 ERA. Judge batted .285 (65 points above his 1916 average!) in 393 ABs and Rice batted .302 in 586 ABs. In 557 ABs, Bodie batted .291 and was 3rd in the AL in HRs.

[brianp-beme]

Matt--great research topic. I will check things out and see if I can add anything more to help narrow down the time frame.

Brian

[oaks1912]

Although I have not specifically researched the players / team affiliations in this set, I do have one experience dealing with them from 'outside the hobby'. Nearly 20 years ago, I was contacted by a lady in San Francisco, who was in the process of settling her father's estate. Among the estate, were thousands of baseball cards and other memorabilia. Her father was raised in the Washington / Baltimore area , and from the surviving artifacts, he collected primarily from 1920-1925. Included in the collection were numerous strip card series including W-514, 516, 519, 520 and what are now referred to as 'Big Heads'. The condition of the cards was all over the map, along with the player / set distribution. Generally speaking the 514, 516 & 519 cards exhibited more handling. THe 520 and Big Heads had the least amount of handling. Based on this observation, and comparing it with the consistency of other similar finds, the lesser condition cards were likely the 'older' ones for this kid, and the nicer conditioned card were acquired later. By 1922, the original collector advanced to saving Senators scorecards and tickets, and there did not appear to be any cards collected by him from this time on. Its always possible that these cards were gifted to him , or otherwise acquired at a later time, but the various series of cards were well blended together. I would think that a 1921 or 1922 issue date would be more likely based on the above factors, and I would have a hard time accepting a pre 1920 date of issue, at least as far as the specific cards that I purchased in this single collection. . With strip cards / anonymous issues it is very possible that multi-year and multiple methods of distribution were utilized by various jobbers or retailers, depending on their individual needs, or regions represented. With strip cards, it will be challenging to completely answer most aspects of their existence. Hope this helps...

[rhettyeakley]

Matt, good topic. Unfortunately the players aren't too much of a help.

I think the Bodie situation (having not played in the majors since 1914 and then again in 1917) and Cadore being such a miniscule part of the team in 1915 & 1916 I think it is pretty safe to eliminate the 1916 date from them. This would make them 1917 at the earliest. 1917 is still on the table though as it may have been made midway during that season as some of these guys were enjoying a good year.

It is hard to see the teams on the chests of the players that include them (which could be a clue if a player changed teams at any point during the span).

If I were a betting man the set probably dates to 1918-1922 or so.

-Rhett

Edited to add: There is nothing magic about the 1920 date either (as Mark says) they very well could be from after 1920.

[Matt]

Mark - great information. I believe the original date range of 1916-1920 is based on when all the players depicted were playing, (Doyle being the first to exit after the 1920 season). That being the case, 1921 is probably the more correct end date as players from 1920 would be on cards produced in 1921.

So, we have 1918-1921 now and your anecdotal evidence leads you to believe 1921.

As an aside, I don't have an issue with changing "established" years for these, as it seems the way the years were previously established was by doing a quick run down of start-playing and end-playing dates of everyone combined and narrowing the window accordingly. It seems clear to me that such a quick & dirty method missed Bodie's hiatus (as well as the lack of PT for some of the players in those years) and therefore mistakenly put the possible issue date starting at 1916.

[rhettyeakley]

Larry Doyle's last year in the majors was 1920, so I doubt these were made too long after that (although he was a very popular player.) They certainly could be from as late as 1921 but I doubt they are later than 1922.
-Rhett

Edited to add: Matt beat me with the Doyle info.

[rhettyeakley]

I have also found a handful of these along with some W520, W522, and a few W516-1's in a vintage collection as well--so the 1920 or so date is probably a bit more accurate.

[nolemmings]

Cadore is probably your best bet in helping to pin it down further, but questions remain. Although your rationale is sound, keep in mind that Joe Judge appears in the m101 sets from 1916 and that both Bodie and Rice appear in the 1917 E135 sets, so someone thought to include them in those earlier years when they were as yet unproven. Granted, one would think a twenty card set would focus on established stars, but other small sets have included some lesser lights as well. If Konetchy is supposed to be depicted in a Brooklyn uniform, he did not join that team until 1919.

Incidentally, in looking at the scans, it seems to me that the cards of Cadore and Bodie are mixed up for one another. Cadore is shown wearing a "C" when he never played for such a team (except a one-game stint for the Chisox in 1923), instead pitching for Brooklyn, and Bodie is shown wearing a "B" when he in fact was playing for Cincinnati and never played for a team beginning with "B". Also, the pose of Cadore is as a hitter when he was a pitcher and Bodie was considered a bit of a slugger, and, while cartoonish, the face on the Cadore card bears some resemblance to Bodie, IMO.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

...one would think a twenty card set would focus on established stars, but other small sets have included some lesser lights as well...

Todd - that's precisely the point - the M101 or E135 set had hundreds of players - they couldn't all be starters, let alone stars. Smaller sets that include lesser players are usually team issues. Especially with all of those players having large 1917 seasons (and thereafter) it's overwhelmingly doubtful they were included following only their 1915 or 1916 contributions.

[teetwoohsix]

Hello all-
Just wanted to say this is a great thread.As Todd pointed out,it seems that maybe they switched up the Bodie & Cadore letters on the uniform.

It got me to wondering if maybe they put the first letter of their last names on the uniforms of these two cards for some reason,rather than a letter for the team.

I'm sure I'm wrong,but could it be?

Thanks,Clayton

[nolemmings]

I don't disagree with you Matt, except maybe your use of the word "overwhelmingly". I always wondered why these dates lean earlier than perhaps they should anyway--why not figure out the latest date and assume that was the year of issue, or maybe even the following season? Seems from the anecdotal evidence presented that very well may be the case.

[brianp-beme]

In accordance to the information provided by Matt, Mark, Rhett and others, and checking the player's careers, I think this set can be narrowed down to the 1918-1921 time frame. It is a small set, and all of the players depicted had a career of some note, which is pretty consistent with other small sets throughout the vintage era. Just think of some of the other comparable small group strip sets of this period; there are no obscure players included (please point out any exceptions to this). That is why I lean closer to the 1920 issue date--by this time all the careers of the included players had been well established.

The team designations on the uniforms, when seen, do not necessarily represent a specific team, as noted previously for Cadore and Bodie. The closest I see is the Baker card with a 'NYA' designation, which I surmise could indicate the New York Americans. The Konetchey card has a 'Y', which I could not figure out what in the fadoodle this would mean.

Also, it is interesting to note that Mark indicated an original find originating in the Washington DC area, as either 3 or 4 of the players in the set during this time frame were with the Senators (see below why this could be either 3 or 4). In the 1918-1920 time frame (sorry, didn't check 1921), the set is also heavy with New York Yankees (2-4 players, depending upon the year). It also appears there was no attempt to include a player from every team, as there are no players from Pittsburg or the Chicago Cubs.

Finally, there are two cards whose identities I believe can be questioned, due to both lack of team designations and the crude, non-realistic player drawings (the E91A and part of E91B, however maligned, have much more realistic facial portrayals of the players depicted).

First is the card of Burns. Unfortunately there were two George Burns, both with prominent careers, that played during the era, so I don't think we can narrow this down to either.

The other card is the one with the designation of 'Johnston'. The guidebooks have always listed this card as a mispelling of Walter Johnson, but there were two prominent players during this time frame with the last name of Johnston, so I think it possible that some assumptions were perhaps carelessly made. The card shows a player throwing righthanded, so we can probably eliminate Doc Johnston, but Jimmy Johnston of Brooklyn also had a notable career (along the lines of Cadore, Konetchey, Bagby and others depicted in the set) and was a righthander. Can anyone tell me for sure that this card is actually Walter Johnson? It certainly bears no resemblance to him. And other star players of the time, such as Speaker and Alexander, are not included in this set, so I don't think we can positively identify this card, especially with an inaccurate spelling, as that of Walter Johnson. Hope this doesn't throw someone's WaJo collection into a quandry.

Brian

[Matt]

Brian - wonderful comments and great point on WoJo. I'm going to shoot an email to his grandson (a board member) to see if there was a "Big Head" in grandpa's collection. Not that such a thing would answer the question conclusively, but if in 1921 WoJo thought he was the one depicted, I'd give that some weight.

Edited to add that the one known as WoJo does have a 'W' on his jersey which would not make sense for the Johnston possibility, though, as we've seen above, it's not altogether clear what those letters are for.

[bcbgcbrcb]

One thing to keep in mind regarding the WaJo card, his earliest card produced by Novelty Cutlery during the 1907-09 time frame incorrectly listed his last name as Johnston also. Maybe a common surname of the era........

[Matt]

and this one (Leon's):

[nolemmings]

Just think of some of the other comparable small group strip sets of this period; there are no obscure players included (please point out any exceptions to this)

hmm, who is Joe Murphy? He is listed as one of the players in the 20 card W519 set from 1920, and I cannot place the name.

Goldie Rapp is listed in two separate small (20 cards) strip sets in 1920--the W520 and the W522. Goldie Rapp did not play a big league game until 1921, when he split 2/3 of an unremarkable season between the Giants and Phils. Why did he merit inclusion in these sets?

The circa 1910 strip set from which Matt pulled a WJ card also includes in its 20 player size Willis Cole, who had played all of 46 games by then, and Oscar Stanage, who had played 78 games as a part-time catcher for Detroit.

Again, I don't disagree with the premise, but exceptions have been shown to exist.

The team designations on the uniforms, when seen, do not necessarily represent a specific team, as noted previously for Cadore and Bodie

I disagree. Juxtapose Bodie and Cadore as I suggested and they appear with their correct teams, and the remainder of the players showing an insignia appear to match up with their correct teams. I do not see a "Y" on Konetchy's uniform, perhaps you can enlarge that for us.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

The circa 1910 strip set from which Matt pulled a WJ card also includes in its 20 player size Willis Cole, who had played all of 46 games by then, and Oscar Stanage, who had played 78 games as a part-time catcher for Detroit.

Todd - not to take the thread too far offtrack, but maybe that set is 1911 or 1912 and the Cole depicted is King Cole, not Willis Cole - I don't have a scan handy. King Cole went 20-4 with a league leading 1.80 ERA in 1910.
http://www.goodwinandco.com/LotDetail2.aspx?lotid=1451

[brianp-beme]

Good points Todd--I was basing my statement about obscure players based upon memory of the players included in the smaller strip sets, which of course was for the most part faulty. And it does appear that Walter Johnson was identified as 'Johnston' on that other W-UNC card. The Big Head card appears to depict the player in a right handed 'follow-through' throwing motion, so with the 'W' identified (I could not see it in the scan) and the other card identified as 'Johnston', all thes factors do lead one to believe that the card was intended to depict WaJo himself. Although, as stated before, Big Heads are just about as artistically crude as they come.

I have the Konetchey card and it has a 'Y' designation.


Brian

[JamesGallo]

Carl Mays went from Boston to NY in 1919 so if anyone has a picture of that card the uniform might help.

Could the Y in Konetchy be for NY?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=STRK:MESOX:IT

I find the fact that of all the white sox only the clean Schalk is in this set which would make me believe is it 1920-21.

It certainly is an off grouping of players that's for sure.

James G

[DanP]

I spent a couple of hours researching some of the players in the set.

I believe that it is impossible to accurately determine the year of issue by looking at the cards. The biggest reason is the drawings of the players are not accurate enough.

However, based on the players socks I would guess that these cards were issued in 1919 (see below). I don't believe they were issued prior to 1917 based on the information below regarding Milan and Judge.

I believe that the starting date range of 1916 is based on one card: Home Run Baker. He joined the Yankees in 1916 (from Phil) and his uniform clearly has N. Y. A. on his chest. If you looked at his socks it matches the 1919 home uniforms (the previous years the Yankees had solid socks).

You would think the Ed Konetchy would help nail down the exact year of issue. However, the only possible clue is his socks. They don't exactly match any of the 3 possible teams. If I were to guess I would say they were from the 1918-21 Brooklyn uniform (their uniform did not change from 1918-21).

Even though Babe Ruth didn't change teams I believe the 1919 or 1921 uniforms (socks) are the closet match to his card. They are 2 colors, although not the same colors. The other years the Yankees socks are solid.

Joe Judge and Zeb Milan were with Washington during the entire period in question. Both of their socks on their cards appear to be 3 "stripes".(although not in the same order) Washington started with 3 stripes in 1917 and stayed with them through 1920.

I'll keep looking!

Dan

[familytoad]

Great thread guys..I mean a GREAT thread!, While I don't have anything to offer but to say that my only card from this set is Eddy Konetchy, and some agreement that the range of 1916-1920 could probably be slid forward a year, maybe two...just keep it coming.

Less Noize, more Socks

[Clutch-Hitter]

Who is Zeb Milan?

Clyde's nickname was "Deerfoot."

Clyde's brother's (Horace Robert Milan) nickname was unspecified. He only played 1915 and 1917 for the Senators with the following players from the set: Johnston (if Walter Johnson), Clyde, Joe Judge, Sam Rice......

[nolemmings]

Clyde was also known as Zeb:

http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?...=9624&bid=1783

http://books.google.com/books?id=0ca...0milan&f=false

[Clutch-Hitter]

OK thanks. Deerfoot certainly doesn't roll off the tongue.........

[ethicsprof]

Matt et al,
i absolutely love this thread.
great detective work that i must incubate for a bit.

thanks,

best,
barry

[nolemmings]

The more I look at them,the more I believe that the card supposedly depicting Eddy Konetchy is actually Home Run Baker. First, although hardly conclusive, the image bears some resemblance to Baker, and none to Konetchy. Second, that might explain why there is a Y on the uniform, as Baker played for the Yanks, and Konetchy never played for New York. Third, the player is batting left-handed, as did Baker, while Konetchy was a righty. Fourth,the card of Baker looks absolutely nothing like him,although I can't think of anyone he resembles right now. Fifth, I still believe that Cadore and Bodie are juxtaposed--if true, there is precedent for misidentifying the player intended to be depicted.

If I am right, then who is supposed to be on the card claiming to be Baker?

[Clutch-Hitter]

The fact that so many of these guys started in 1915, even Ruth because his 1914 season was brief, is quite a coincidence, if it is a coincidence. There was also some changing of teams going on with some of the guys, including Baker to NYA. Baker's jersey is the only Jersey that includes the "A" designation, with the others only noting the city abbreviation. Johnson and Cobb, well established in pro baseball, were correctly labeled with their respective teams.

Having had major back surgery on the 20th (from 20 years of baseball) and no work for at least another month, I have three word documents going so far and will post the other two shortly, but let me know what you think about this in the meantime. BTW, the letters on the left portion of the chest are team names by city. Walter Johnson has the "W" and Cobb has the "D." Therefore, the letters on Bodie and Cadore were likely confused as someone said, unless they were all printed at different times maybe (?). I know far, far less than you guys do, but I think these were from pre-1920, but more on that soon.



Here are the teams:

Boston Red Sox
• Babe Ruth 1914-1919 (RC) limited play in 1914
• Carl Mays 1915-1919 (RC)
• Schang 1918-1920

Washington Senators
• Walter Johnson 1907-1927 (“W” on chest)
• Joe Judge 1915-1932 (RC)
• Clyde Milan 1907-1922
• Sam Rice 1915-1933 (RC)(Pitcher 1915-1916)

Detroit Tigers
• Ty Cobb (Has a “D” on his chest)

New York Yankees
• Frank Baker 1916-1922 (NYA on chest) why not just NY, because of recent change?
• Babe Ruth 1920-1934
• Ping Bodie 1918-1921 (“B” on chest)
• Schang 1921-1925

Cleveland Indians
• Jim Bagby 1916-1922 (only 17 IP with Reds in 1912)

New York Giants
• David Bancroft 1920-1923
• Larry Doyle 1915-1916 and 1918-1920

Brooklyn Robbins
• Leon Cadore 1915-1922 (RC) (“C” on chest)

Boston Braves
• Konetchy 1916-1918 (new team starting 1916)

Philadelphia Phillies
• David Bancroft 1915-1920 (RC)

Philadelphia A’s
• Ping Bodie 1917
• Schang 1913-1917

Chicago Cubs
• Larry Doyle 1916-1917 (Some kind of change in 1916)

Chicago White Sox
• Ray Schalk 1912-1928

Cincinnati Reds
• Heine Groh 1914-1921

St Louis Cardinals
• R. Hornsby 1915-1926 (RC)

[Clutch-Hitter]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

The more I look at them,the more I believe that the card supposedly depicting Eddy Konetchy is actually Home Run Baker. First, although hardly conclusive, the image bears some resemblance to Baker, and none to Konetchy. Second, that might explain why there is a Y on the uniform, as Baker played for the Yanks, and Konetchy never played for New York. Third, the player is batting left-handed, as did Baker, while Konetchy was a righty. Fourth,the card of Baker looks absolutely nothing like him,although I can't think of anyone he resembles right now. Fifth, I still believe that Cadore and Bodie are juxtaposed--if true, there is precedent for misidentifying the player intended to be depicted.

If I am right, then who is supposed to be on the card claiming to be Baker?

Interesting that they both changed teams between '15 and '16.........

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Clutch-Hitter

The fact that so many of these guys started in 1915, even Ruth because his 1914 season was brief, is quite a coincidence, if it is a coincidence.

You're going to need to be more clear about what you're implying here. Is it your theory that because they were unknown rookies playing in less then 10 games in 1915 & 1916, someone decided to use them specifically on the cards?

[Clutch-Hitter]

No Matt, I'm stating it is a coincidence that 35% of the players that are known started in 1915, if it is a coincidence, and some others were changing teams around that time. I was referring to Ruth when I referred to 1914, and Bagby played very little in '12 before returning in '16.

Konetchy does resemble Baker tough
http://cgi.ebay.com/1911-1910-T3-Tur...item3a5bfd8cd0

All positions are covered (Is there a mistake?) G. Burns???? Almost enough for two teams with only twenty cards
P
Bagby,
Johnson,
Cadore
Mays
Ruth

Of
George Joseph Burns (One of McGraw’s most valuable)
Milan (CF)
Ping Bodie
Ty Cobb (CF)
Sam Rice (CF)
Babe Ruth

3rd
HR Baker

SS
Dave Bancroft
Hornsby

2nd
Doyle
Heine Groh

1st
Konetchy
Joe Judge
George Sisler

C
Schalk

[Clutch-Hitter]

Positions

P
Bagby,
Johnson,
Cadore
Mays
Ruth

Of
Milan (CF)
Ping Bodie
Ty Cobb (CF)
Sam Rice (CF)

3rd
HR Baker

SS
Dave Bancroft
Hornsby

2nd
Doyle
Heine Groh

1st
Konetchy
Joe Judge
George Sisler

C
Schalk
Schang

[nolemmings]

Actually Greg, your link to the Baker card is itself a mistake-- the T3 shows Jack Barry, even though it claims to be Baker. See--there's more precedent that they can't Baker right

The Big-Head Konetchy looks like Baker's T227 card to me, both facially and body build.
http://www.oldcardboard.com/t/t227/t227gal.asp

It looks nothing like Konetchy, who had 25 pounds on Baker also:

[Clutch-Hitter]

Wow, now that you mention it, the guy on the T3 did look a little less athletic (no pun intended) than Baker, should've looked at my own T200!


Here's two questions:
Are there other 20’s strip card sets that are as scarce as the Big Heads?
Are the 10’s strip card sets as scarce as the Big Heads?

[bcbgcbrcb]

Greg:

The W590's are one of the toughest strip card sets of the 1920's and also one of the most popular.

[Clutch-Hitter]

[Clutch-Hitter]

Wally Schang was a switch-hitting, right hand throwing catcher/outfielder

[Clutch-Hitter]

Their heads are magnified as if to be seen better
The more we look at 'em, the more one face appears to belong on a different body......

Is it possible this was some sort of game in which the object was to identify the correct player.....? Anything similar to that back then?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Clutch-Hitter

Wow, now that you mention it, the guy on the T3 did look a little less athletic (no pun intended) than Baker, should've looked at my own T200!


Here's two questions:
Are there other 20’s strip card sets that are as scarce as the Big Heads?
Are the 10’s strip card sets as scarce as the Big Heads?

I would venture to guess the 1921 self developing cards (Johnston (sic) shown) are more scarce, depending on if if we call them strips, I do. And of course my new faves, the 1915 W-Uncs. Although many don't feel they are W cards they are still classified that way today. Strip cards are neat to collect and still an area where we learn new things quite often.

[Clutch-Hitter]

Thanks Leon. Very cool cards. It seems the artist on the Gehrig card attempted to accurately depict him in a comedic, yet adoring fashion.

I find it hard to believe that a set of baseball cards was produced with no purpose, and I find it hard to believe that the "artist" failed to attempt an accurate depiction of the players. I also find it hard to believe that this set originated in a child's playroom. The origination is anonymous, yet aren't we to assume a company of sorts issued the cards? And if so, would the unknown company hire a ten year old to complete the sketch composites?

Edited to say: One intense face out of the whole bunch was not random; it was intentional....

Here's what I would look for in an attempt to complete a sketch composite that I would like to portray......., things that are striking about a person: chin cleft, ears that stick out, disproportionate features, crooked nose, etc, etc, etc

[birdman42]

Originally Posted by Clutch-Hitter

Edited to say: One intense face out of the whole bunch was not random; it was intentional....

Greg,

So you're saying the Leon Cadore really shows Joe Judge? Crap. Now which one do I go after for my Washington collection?

Can somebody put up a pic of the Judge card? Who's shown on that one?

Bill

[Matt]

This is starting to look like they hired an artist and gave him a list of names and he returned a pile of drawing with no names on them and the person whose job it was to assign the names for printing didn't know anything about baseball (Walter JohnsTon?) and mixed many of them up.

[Clutch-Hitter]

Definite Inconsistencies, assuming the players on the cards are the same as the person noted by name:

• Sisler is throwing with his right hand
• Doyle has his glove on his right hand
• Schang has his mitt on his right hand
• Konetchy is batting LH
• *At first, I thought Ruth was in follow-through, but it is apparent IMO that he is awaiting pitch as a right hand hitter. In all batting poses the hands are on the bat with conventional grips. Therefore, Ruth's other hand should be in view. In fact, his stance and hand position on the bat matches that of Bancroft.

Interesting stuff:

• The only player posing as a base runner is Cobb
• The only player not posing as hitting, throwing, or base running is Baker. He is neutral, just standing there.
• Carl Mays is pitching, in fact, he's in the middle of a wind up and looking toward second as if he is checking a runner.
• Milan looks like he is up to something, as if he is concealing a spitball or something
• It seems all the pitchers in the set were at the very least decent hitters. Johnson and Mays could hit well, bagby hit well in the '20 world series, and cadore had decent hitting stats in '20, was also in the world series.

Cadore is the only pitcher posing with a bat, and IMO he is not depicted on the card; Joe Judge is. And if Judge is on cadore's card, he is holding the bat as a RH hitter when he should be holding the bat as a lefty.

[Clutch-Hitter]

Originally Posted by Matt

This is starting to look like they hired an artist and gave him a list of names and he returned a pile of drawing with no names on them and the person whose job it was to assign the names for printing didn't know anything about baseball (Walter JohnsTon?) and mixed many of them up.

Yeah, I agree, unless it was intentional, but I can't think of why. Remember the W516-?-? in which the images were reversed? When was that allegedly, '20 or '21? Gotta find my catalog...............

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by Clutch-Hitter

Yeah, I agree, unless it was intentional, but I can't think of why. Remember the W516-?-? in which the images were reversed? When was that allegedly, '20 or '21? Gotta find my catalog...............

W516-2-1 1920 and W516-2-2 1921

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

W516-2-1 1920 and W516-2-2 1921

Hmmm...same potential years (especially based on the earlier testimony about what these were found with), same type of issue, same mistake - do the odds point to two different inept workers or the same one?

[Clutch-Hitter]

Bill, here are the cards magnified. It'll take a couple posts to get 'em all in...




Does anybody know off the top of your head if the strip card sets comprised complete teams in the sets (the sets that had 10,20,30 cards) or were they random with the possibility of multiple people at one position, etc?

The position post from before did not have Burns (the second post), and some of the players could perform at multiple positions, especially the infielders. The cards in this set could be arranged to form two teams, or it could be one team with a back-up at each position.

[Clutch-Hitter]

[Clutch-Hitter]

[Clutch-Hitter]

Originally Posted by Matt

Hmmm...same potential years (especially based on the earlier testimony about what these were found with), same type of issue, same mistake - do the odds point to two different inept workers or the same one?

Yeah, unless this started that chaos. To go that route, we still have some problems. We gotta determine if the other players are accurately depicted on their respective cards, because if not, we have some that are reversed and some that are not.......

Ping looks right except for that dang "B!"