National location in 2024 and future

[parkplace33]

When will the location for the National in 2024 be announced? And future locations as well?

[Johnny630]

I think the dealers sent their votes in. From what I recall overhearing it was three choices. Chicago across the board. Chicago, Cleveland Chicago. And can't remember what I heard the third option was.

[walker066]

I think the third option was Cleveland/AC. I’m guessing that’s going to be a no lol

[Brian Van Horn]

It has been since 2012 the National was in Baltimore. It has rotated in the three cities mentioned since then. Still, with the Cleveland building closed at the airport and the Ferris Wheel removed, the rotation is simply Atlantic City one year and Chicago another. Man, that puts miles on the car.

[Rich Klein]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

It has been since 2012 the National was in Baltimore. It has rotated in the three cities mentioned since then. Still, with the Cleveland building closed at the airport and the Ferris Wheel removed, the rotation is simply Atlantic City one year and Chicago another. Man, that puts miles on the car.

From what I've read -- the Convention Center downtown is where the NSCC will be held in Cleveland but if the I/X Center is needed, it is available

https://clevelandmagazine.com/in-the...center-is-back

Regards
Rich

[rand1com]

If it goes to Cleveland, it will be at the IX Center. The downtown center is not close to being large enough and they will not eliminate 1/3 of the dealer booths to go there.

[Jewish-collector]

Originally Posted by rand1com

If it goes to Cleveland, it will be at the IX Center. The downtown center is not close to being large enough and they will not eliminate 1/3 of the dealer booths to go there.

Not true. It is larger than Atlantic City and almost as large as Rosemont's. https://www.clevelandconventions.com/

centers.JPG

[Carter08]

Selfishly, Cleveland would be an easy drive for me. And Ohio generally seems like a collecting Mecca. Maybe this has been covered but it seems like the best idea would be an airport hub city so people can fly direct. Detroit, Chicago, Charlotte, NYC, Atlanta, etc.

[x2drich2000]

Originally Posted by Jewish-collector

Not true. It is larger than Atlantic City and almost as large as Rosemont's. https://www.clevelandconventions.com/

Attachment 531130

One thing you need to keep in mind is exhibit space vs total space. AC has ~490k sqft of exhibitor space across 5 connected halls. The Cleveland convention center has ~225k sqft across 3 connected halls. Cleveland than has an additional 140k+ sqft of meeting and pre-function (hallways/lobbies) space and additional auditoriums and ballrooms in the hotel on the full campus. It is only when you combine all these extra spaces is it actually larger than AC or close to Chicago. While this type of space is great for some types of shows and events, all the extra space outside the exhibition halls would not be conducive for a card show in my opinion.

Here are links to the actual floor plans for AC and Cleveland. When you start to look at the actual floor layouts and how the space is broken down you can see why some spaces, even though the total space may be larger, just won't work due to how the space is designed.

AC 2nd level - https://meetac.com/meet/specs-floor-plans

Cleveland - https://www.clevelandconventions.com...oom-Map_v2.pdf

and for additional comparison, here's the floor place for Chicago - https://rosemont.com/desconvention/w...1_RGB_2014.pdf

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Jewish-collector

Not true. It is larger than Atlantic City and almost as large as Rosemont's. https://www.clevelandconventions.com/

Attachment 531130

Not to intentionally rain on your parade, but read the info in that convention center link you included. It is put out by the Cleveland Convention Center, so would assume it is accurate, and it states that the center provides 410,000 SF of prime meeting and event space, which includes only 225,000 SF of main Exhibit Hall space. Where did you get those other SF figures, in the chart you posted, from? My guess is those other figures may be gross, overall building dimension SFs, and not truly representative of the actual, contiguous main exhibit floor space available.

In contrast, the Cleveland IX Center has a gross building size of 2.2M SF, and an exhibit floor space of 985,000 SF, more than 4X the 225,000 SF main exhibit hall space in the Cleveland Convention Center, per your link. And based on how the SF numbers for the Cleveland Convention Center in your
chart don't seem to jive with the SF size per the Convention Center's own site, the actual main exhibit hall SF for Rosemont and Atlantic City per your chart may be suspect as well. When they first opened the IX Center in 1985, I believe it was then the largest exhibition center/building in the US, if not all of North America.

Per the Donald E. Stephens Convention Center website, it has a total of 840,000 SF of exhibition space, but that appears to be spread out over various halls/rooms. Their site says for larger shows they have a 250,000 SF continuous exhibit hall/space, which I'm assuming is the same room/hall they use to host the National. If that is the case, then the IX Center's main exhibit floor/room is once again, multiple times bigger.

Just saying........

[Jewish-collector]

Understood. You all might be right. I'm unclear about total contiguous space of the new convention center. Perhaps the facility can be enlarged at some point to make it work.

[insidethewrapper]

Detroit use to have some of the greatest hobby shows. One of the few cities with all 4 major sport teams. What about the Huntington Place convention Center. See all the details at their website.

Between the cities of Chicago and Cleveland. Across the river from Canada collectors, with Toronto only a few hours away.

Free high speed WI-Fi.
4200 parking spaces + 1000's more close by.
Greektown, many eating places etc.
Several Casinos in Detroit.
623,000 sq ft in contiguous floor space. Several other event rooms etc.
Etc.

https://www.huntingtonplacedetroit.com/


Just a thought and another option to consider.

[Exhibitman]

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

Detroit use to have some of the greatest hobby shows. One of the few cities with all 4 major sport teams. What about the Huntington Place convention Center. See all the details at their website.

Between the cities of Chicago and Cleveland. Across the river from Canada collectors, with Toronto only a few hours away.

Free high speed WI-Fi.
4200 parking spaces + 1000's more close by.
Greektown, many eating places etc.
Several Casinos in Detroit.
623,000 sq ft in contiguous floor space. Several other event rooms etc.
Etc.

https://www.huntingtonplacedetroit.com/


Just a thought and another option to consider.

Taking it back old-school would be awesome. Cobo (Huntington place, bleh) dwarfs all of them if you count the other open space built for the North American Auto Show. -

Dimensions
Ballroom Space
51,527 Square Feet
40,000 Grand Riverview Ballroom
5,368 Portside Ballroom
6,139 Ambassador Ballroom
Exhibit Hall Space: 723,000 Square Feet; 623,000 Contiguous
Flex Space: 200,000 Square Feet
Meeting Space: 100 Rooms, 200,000 Square Feet
Atrium: 3-story Glass Atrium 30,000 Square Feet

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Don't fall for the national ruin porn they show for Detroit. Working downtown for 11 years and the crime in the financial/sports district is near nothing. Now if you want to jump off into the neighborhoods, well good luck. But I don't hitchhike in Compton either.

[Johnny630]

Florida Would Be Awesome as an alternate along with Las Vegas. WOW

Probably Pie in the Sky but one can dream.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Florida Would Be Awesome as an alternate along with Las Vegas. WOW

Probably Pie in the Sky but one can dream.

Yeah, I don't see that happening, but I'd go if they had it anywhere in Florida. As it is though, it never passes within 1,200 miles of my house.

[mr2686]

Dare to dream...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qwju6iTsgBk

[Jewish-collector]

Detroit !!! Hell yeah !!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgGr1-JA5io

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by exhibitman

perfect!!!!!

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by mr2686

Dare to dream...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qwju6iTsgBk

That was a great video! Brought back so many memories... we probably will never see another National there in our lifetimes, but thanks for posting it!

[Rich Klein]

I had no idea he made a 3rd video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDza6G2AyQU

Rich

[theshowandme]

Bring it to DC

[Snapolit1]

Wonder if they released attendance for this year’s show. I know from reading the board carefully that no one was going to AC because of the crime and decay. Very Curious to see how bad of a disaster it actually was.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by snapolit1

wonder if they released attendance for this year’s show. I know from reading the board carefully that no one was going to ac because of the crime and decay. Very curious to see how bad of a disaster it actually was.

lol

[Snapolit1]

If I ran a business and the leading industry group said we are going to move our annual marquis event from the NJ/NY/Philly area to Cleveland I would be over the moon.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

If I ran a business and the leading industry group said we are going to move our annual marquis event from the NJ/NY/Philly area to Cleveland I would be over the moon.

Trying to get that far away?
Those videos are great.
.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

I had no idea he made a 3rd video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDza6G2AyQU

Rich

That is disgusting and insulting to anyone from the area.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by theshowandme

Bring it to DC

+1,000! Is the D.C. convention center not big enough, is that the problem? And what about Philly or Baltimore for East Coast venues, why don't they get consideration? What's the big deal about Cleveland, anyway? It's not really central for West Coast or Southern folks, and if that's the main criterion, why not just have it in Chicago or some other midwest location every year and leave it at that? As for A.C., I'm waiting for the crime reports: all the muggings, street robberies, carjackings, etc. Apparently, the National was very well attended, so the accompanying crime and carnage as predicted must have been horrendous, right?

[1954 topps]

It doesn’t matter where the show is. People with money will travel anywhere. As the popularity of the hobby has exploded, the scale of the national should as well. And the IX Center is the best location on the current schedule to continue expanding the number of tables. How sweet would a 2,000-3,000 table show be?!

Cleveland could easily support expansion and in a decent location to travel into for the majority of attendees. They could add corporate and dealer tables simultaneously. The hobby is strong, now is the time to test the limits of possibilities.

I’d also suggest an early admission daily ticket option for more than a 1/2 hour early admission as is the current norm. Charge $50 per day.

[x2drich2000]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

+1,000! Is the D.C. convention center not big enough, is that the problem? And what about Philly or Baltimore for East Coast venues, why don't they get consideration? What's the big deal about Cleveland, anyway? It's not really central for West Coast or Southern folks, and if that's the main criterion, why not just have it in Chicago or some other midwest location every year and leave it at that? As for A.C., I'm waiting for the crime reports: all the muggings, street robberies, carjackings, etc. Apparently, the National was very well attended, so the accompanying crime and carnage as predicted must have been horrendous, right?

For reference AC as I mentioned above is 490k sqft.

DC (Walter Washington Convention center) - Hall ABC looks to be 473k sqft - so a little small but maybe possible especially if you would be willing to separate into the 2nd floor hall as well. But I'm not sure breaking the show into multiple areas would be a good thing.

Philly would work based on size (main hall is 528k sqft + the ballroom if you wanted to separate for more space).

Baltimore - IMO the show has now unfortunately outgrown the convention center. The main hall is only 300k sqft.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by x2drich2000

For reference AC as I mentioned above is 490k sqft. DC (Walter Washington Convention center) - Hall ABC looks to be 473k sqft - so a little small but maybe possible especially if you would be willing to separate into the 2nd floor hall as well. But I'm not sure breaking the show into multiple areas would be a good thing. Philly would work based on size (main hall is 528k sqft + the ballroom if you wanted to separate for more space). Baltimore - IMO the show has now unfortunately outgrown the convention center. The main hall is only 300k sqft.

Great info. Thanks!

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by 1954 topps

It doesn’t matter where the show is. People with money will travel anywhere. As the popularity of the hobby has exploded, the scale of the national should as well. And the IX Center is the best location on the current schedule to continue expanding the number of tables. How sweet would a 2,000-3,000 table show be?! Cleveland could easily support expansion and in a decent location to travel into for the majority of attendees. They could add corporate and dealer tables simultaneously. The hobby is strong, now is the time to test the limits of possibilities. I’d also suggest an early admission daily ticket option for more than a 1/2 hour early admission as is the current norm. Charge $50 per day.

Nothing against Cleveland, I did several Nationals there and except for the union rules (nothing against unions, either, but those were ridiculous), I liked it as a venue. Didn't realize it was so big and suitable for expansion of the show, but I agree that would be a good reason to go for that and maybe just stick there, including the revival of the Ferris Wheel! I don't quite agree about location not being important, some parts of the country are better than others for our purposes, IMO.

[theshowandme]

Originally Posted by theshowandme

Bring it to DC

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

+1,000! Is the D.C. convention center not big enough, is that the problem? And what about Philly or Baltimore for East Coast venues, why don't they get consideration? What's the big deal about Cleveland, anyway? It's not really central for West Coast or Southern folks, and if that's the main criterion, why not just have it in Chicago or some other midwest location every year and leave it at that? As for A.C., I'm waiting for the crime reports: all the muggings, street robberies, carjackings, etc. Apparently, the National was very well attended, so the accompanying crime and carnage as predicted must have been horrendous, right?

Originally Posted by x2drich2000

For reference AC as I mentioned above is 490k sqft.

DC (Walter Washington Convention center) - Hall ABC looks to be 473k sqft - so a little small but maybe possible especially if you would be willing to separate into the 2nd floor hall as well. But I'm not sure breaking the show into multiple areas would be a good thing.

Philly would work based on size (main hall is 528k sqft + the ballroom if you wanted to separate for more space).

Baltimore - IMO the show has now unfortunately outgrown the convention center. The main hall is only 300k sqft.

DC has a great layout. Push the breakers/corporate areas to different halls. Washington, D.C. has over 200,000 more sq feet of exhibition space in the building than Atlantic City. The building is bigger than the San Diego Convention Center which hosts Comic-Con for example... it could definitely host the national.

[Exhibitman]

Given the growth of the hobby maybe not a bad idea to add more space. I'd also argue for modifying the floor plans for the show:

1. Put the autographs, breaker area and the card grading services in a separate room. Those activities are sufficiently differentiated from the basic buying and selling of cards and memorabilia that there is no real loss to having them off the main floor.

2. I'd also put the true corporate booths (the ones that don't actually sell stuff) at one end of the main floor away from the dealer tables. It is a PITA to circle around or traverse the no-man's-land of the corporate booths twenty times a day moving between dealer table rows.

3. I would also segregate the auction houses from the dealer tables. Candidly, I don't care what trinkets the AHs have on display; that's maybe something I briefly look at while having a snack.

I'd love to see 700-1000 dealer tables concentrated into one area.

I'd also like to see more tables and chairs available besides by the concessions. The IX Center certainly could accommodate a series of sitting areas on the show floor. Might be nice for visiting and trading.

ETA: my last few shows in Cleveland have been really good, and I have come around to not minding the IX Center, especially if they've gotten rid of that f***ing annoying Ferris wheel dead zone in the middle of the room. The airport is the size of a small regional airport here in LA, so easy to get around (I still get lost in O'Hare every time) and I've found some good areas to go to eat. Having to get a car is a drag, but it isn't a deal-breaker for me.

[Jewish-collector]

Add as many dealers at the IX Center as the facility can possibly hold. 800 or 1000 or whatever beer chug.gifbeer chug.gifbeer chug.gif

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Hoping that the new blood running the forthcoming shows might have some fresh ideas, such as "Maybe we can actually pay a little bit for a venue instead of expecting one to be handed to us.". It would sure open up a lot of possibilities, wouldn't it? I understand that several venues wouldn't be ideal for one reason or another, but maybe, just maybe, there might be something out there that is affordable enough that it would freshen up this event and not cut too much into their profits. Variety is sorely needed. When is the last time this idea was even tried (paying for a site)? Certainly far prior to the COVID hobby boom.

(Maybe I am mistaken, but am fairly certain that "free venue" was always the former promoters' main point for the same, tiresome drudgery and the reasoning for not even considering to explore so many other avenues.)

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by BillyCox3

Hoping that the new blood running the forthcoming shows might have some fresh ideas, such as "Maybe we can actually pay a little bit for a venue instead of expecting one to be handed to us.".

They haven't been paying for the venues? Wow! How does that work?

[Tony Gordon]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Given the growth of the hobby maybe not a bad idea to add more space. I'd also argue for modifying the floor plans for the show:

1. Put the autographs, breaker area and the card grading services in a separate room. Those activities are sufficiently differentiated from the basic buying and selling of cards and memorabilia that there is no real loss to having them off the main floor.

2. I'd also put the true corporate booths (the ones that don't actually sell stuff) at one end of the main floor away from the dealer tables. It is a PITA to circle around or traverse the no-man's-land of the corporate booths twenty times a day moving between dealer table rows.

3. I would also segregate the auction houses from the dealer tables. Candidly, I don't care what trinkets the AHs have on display; that's maybe something I briefly look at while having a snack.

I'd love to see 700-1000 dealer tables concentrated into one area.

I'd also like to see more tables and chairs available besides by the concessions. The IX Center certainly could accommodate a series of sitting areas on the show floor. Might be nice for visiting and trading.

ETA: my last few shows in Cleveland have been really good, and I have come around to not minding the IX Center, especially if they've gotten rid of that f***ing annoying Ferris wheel dead zone in the middle of the room. The airport is the size of a small regional airport here in LA, so easy to get around (I still get lost in O'Hare every time) and I've found some good areas to go to eat. Having to get a car is a drag, but it isn't a deal-breaker for me.

Great suggestions! Unfortunately, I think the folks that operate the National are not concerned about the dealers. Seems to me the show is all about the corporate booths, auction houses and the breakers. How come the corporate folks don't have to wait in line in the dealer lottery to get booths? I also wonder with new management all based out east, what is their incentive to hold the show anywhere but east?

I have observed that there are more and more large shows being held across the country. I think these large regional shows will become better alternatives for dealers in the future as the National continues to cater to corporate, auction houses and breakers (someone take away their microphones!!). I also would like to see more vintage-only shows like Strongsville.

[Vintagedeputy]

Virginia Beach or Richmond!

[insidethewrapper]

Any contact information available for the new owners/promoters of the future National Shows ? I can't find how to contact them. Thanks

[x2drich2000]

Originally Posted by Vintagedeputy

Virginia Beach or Richmond!

Even combined they're not large enough. VB is 180k sqft including the separate ballroom and Richmond is 178k sqft.

[Huck]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

It has been since 2012 the National was in Baltimore. It has rotated in the three cities mentioned since then. Still, with the Cleveland building closed at the airport and the Ferris Wheel removed, the rotation is simply Atlantic City one year and Chicago another. Man, that puts miles on the car.

I would love to see the National return to Baltimore (only an hour away). At the time, I heard the problem with Baltimore was the venue could not be booked years out, which is a problem when rotating sites. I have attended the show in Cleveland as well. The IX center is huge and tons of parking. DC would be an interesting location. Parking would be a nightmare, especially during the week. Metro access helps alleviate the parking situation.

[Snapolit1]

Chicago - amazingly convenient. Easy to fly to. Location of hotels to center is awesome. Great American city with a lot to do.

Atlantic City - close driving distance for a large section of the population of the country, so much of hobby is actually based on NJ, not a city to spend a lot of time walking about but many people enjoy the selection of casinos and other night life.

Cleveland - honestly not much of a tourist destination and not as easy to travel to as chicago. No offense to Cleveland, been there a few times and don’t need to go back.

Vegas - if it worked out sure. Same with Orlando or one of the California large cities. Places you’d want to go to for a vacation.

I disagree that people will go anywhere. I travel for leisure maybe 2 x a year. I’m not taking a trip to East Jabib because their is a card show there. Has to be other things pulling me there.

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by x2drich2000

For reference AC as I mentioned above is 490k sqft.

DC (Walter Washington Convention center) - Hall ABC looks to be 473k sqft - so a little small but maybe possible especially if you would be willing to separate into the 2nd floor hall as well. But I'm not sure breaking the show into multiple areas would be a good thing.

Philly would work based on size (main hall is 528k sqft + the ballroom if you wanted to separate for more space).

Baltimore - IMO the show has now unfortunately outgrown the convention center. The main hall is only 300k sqft.

The Washington Convention Center is not a great place for the show. I have gone there for the auto show, World Stamp Expo, Health and fitness expo and small events. The main hall is only about 160' x 90', or 155' x 60'. I used their virtual floor plan program with measuring tool and got several different measurements. The Auto Show uses multiple floors. Even though the main hall is a nice rectangle, it would not seem practical. I believe the main hall is also in the basement.

I have walked in the area quite a bit when I go to the D.C. Archives for research. The convention center takes up about 3 old city blocks. Directly to the north is mainly residential rowhouses and Howard University. To the west is mostly rowhouses, small condos. To the east is low income housing and Dunbar High School. To the south across the intersection of two major avenues (New York and Massachusetts) is Chinatown and Capital One Arena. There is not enough parking close to the building with no parking structures. There is a parking area in the building, but that may just be for exhibitors and deliveries. Very few places to eat - Subway and some small restaurants. As for hotels; there is one in the next block - Marriott Marquis. After that all of the larger hotels are 5-8 blocks away - Grand Hyatt, Hilton Garden Inn, Sofitel, Washington Marriott, Washington Hyatt.

The only positive is the Mt. Vernon/Convention Center/7th Street Metro stop is directly below the building. The exit/entrance to the subway station is under part of the building so you come up the escalator and walk 30 feet into the building. One of the subway lines that stops here goes to Crystal City in Arlington, future home of Amazon HQ2, and there are 13 hotels there.

[Lobo Aullando]

The big hall(s) down below street level is/are 473k sqft. The big hall up the giant escalators is 230k sqft. It might be acceptable to stick the graders and signers upstairs, and then have the dealers and mandatory corporate booths downstairs. They could even put some corporate stuff on the mezzanine between the street level and the lower halls; everybody will have to walk by it.

There is also the matter of some onerous union rules. You can take it in yourself, but no carts.

Originally Posted by Michael B

The Washington Convention Center is not a great place for the show. I have gone there for the auto show, World Stamp Expo, Health and fitness expo and small events. The main hall is only about 160' x 90', or 155' x 60'.

Edit: Looks like DJ already had the measurements. 473k sqft works out to 500' x 940'.

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by Lobo Aullando

The big hall(s) down below street level is/are 473k sqft. The big hall up the giant escalators is 230k sqft. It might be acceptable to stick the graders and signers upstairs, and then have the dealers and mandatory corporate booths downstairs. They could even put some corporate stuff on the mezzanine between the street level and the lower halls; everybody will have to walk by it.

There is also the matter of some onerous union rules. You can take it in yourself, but no carts.



Edit: Looks like DJ already had the measurements. 473k sqft works out to 500' x 940'.

When I first pulled up the site the ABC hall showed up as much smaller. When I reentered the site the real exhibition hall came up and it is 1290' long 290' wide for half the hall and 370' wide for the other half. So roughly four football fields long and one football field wide, more or less. That makes it seem like it is longer and wider than AC. City owned convention center so not surprised it is union. It fits the cities' politics. Other than that there are still the parking, food and hotel issues. Those pretty much put it out of the running.

[mrreality68]

I would love for them to just make it simple. Find the Convention Centers that have the right size to handle the Show and the right number of hotel rooms to handle it and then rotate it thru out the country each year. This gives those that do not or cannot travel the opportunity to go every so many years and it gives those able or willing to travel the ability to get there but also explore that city or surrounding areas, take in games and events in different parts of the country.

The economics is the only factor that may affect this from the cost of the venue and the area of the country that the Shows organizers feel if an area can support the show.

Regardless Book it and lets go

[t206blogcom]

Why not Richmond, VA? https://www.richmondcenter.com/about

[Snapolit1]

One think a lot of people aren’t considering is air fare. Those who travel for business a lot realize that tickets to Chicago and New York are DC are usually way cheaper than smaller and midsized cities. See how many people fly to one of the smaller cities being mentioned when the airfare is $2000.