Next Steps Begin 6AM Tomorrow

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Posted By: JimCrandell

To keep the momentum going here, I am going to e-mail five major dealer/auction houses and ask them to post their responses to the questions in a matter that Steve from Clean Sweep did--JP from Memory Lane, David Koehler from Sports Cards Plus, Brian Drent from Mile High, Bill Goodwin from Goodwin & Co and Andy Madec. I know JP, Andy, Brian and Bill very well and Dave somewhat.

To ensure their cooperation(not that they wouldn't want to do this anyway I hope), I will also post their names in separate threads with instructions on how to answer.

I will do this about 6am tomorrow--if anyone has any advice please post it on this thread before then.

I really feel we are accomplishing something here and have the potential to accomplish more.

Jim Crandell

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Posted By: Joann

Not advice for you Jim - I appreciate that you have kicked off this string of discussion. But I do have one question or suggestion for Leon.

Is there some way we can capture these threads to they can be easily referenced later? I know we have a search function, but it's hard to find threads unless they have very specific content that leads to unique search strings.

Can they be consolidated into one thread? Or can we add a keyword that is very unusual to the first post in each thread so we can all use in in future searches? Like ... banana, or something that would never ever be used in this forum except to identify the threads related to the auction houses practices?

Thanks for your consideration, and as always, great job keeping all the plates in the air without breaking any!

J

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Posted By: FYS

Jim C.,

Per this months SMR, Brian Drent mentioned that he is an employee/authenticater for PSA. That raised an internal red flag in my mind. I see a few people were bothered that Barry, Steve and Doug did not note the lots they owned in their auctions. How about third party authenticated items that are actually authenticated by the auction house under the third parties name?

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Posted By: JimCrandell

That is certainly news to me--he certainly gets some additional questions.

Jim

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Posted By: Jay

That is NOT what the SMR says. The SMR says is that since 1994 Drent has been using PSA's services and has graded many thousand of items through them.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Auctioning lots you authenticated yourself is a slippery slope. I see some conflicts above and beyond auctioning lots owned by the auctioneer. In a sense, when I write up a lot, such as my 1872 Boston composite photo, I give my professional opinion about it. But there is no one else except myself who really could describe it with authority. There is no third party authenticator for display photographs. I suppose if someone sells a raw card he is both grading it and selling it. But if someone both encapsulates a card and sells it, might be a little more complicated. We are certainly getting into some esoteric areas here.

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Posted By: Jay

Barry--read my post which came out at the same time as yours

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jay- this is the second time tonight we posted on the same thread at the same minute.

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Posted By: barrysloate

We did it again- this is spooky.

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Posted By: Jay

Barry--I find the thought very scarey of the two of us somehow being in sync

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Posted By: barrysloate

Mental telepathy?

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

I don't have the SMR but I would be shocked if Brian grades for PSA. As I recall Andy Madec had to quit selling when he briefly was a grader, and whatever you think of PSA they are not going to allow an active dealer/auction house to be a grader.

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Posted By: David R. Selznick

Jim:

Can you include Heritage in your 6am email - I would like them to answer the question of whether they include merchandise they own in their auctions.

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Posted By: FYS

"That is NOT what the SMR says. The SMR says is that since 1994 Drent has been using PSA's services and has graded many thousand of items through them."

Jay,

The word for work quote is as follows:

SMR: How has PSA helped Mile High over the years or how has PSA helped change the industry for the better?

BD: PSA has been great for Mile High. In 1994, I started authenticating with them. We've graded thousands upon thousands of items through PSA.

When I read this, it jumped out at me that Brian has been doing authenticating for PSA since 1994. I would not be surprised if it simply means the he has been using them for grading since 1994.

Jim C.,

A couple of additional people you may want to e-mail to pretty much cover the full gambit:

Lew Lipset
Joshua Leland Evans
David Hunt
Bill Goodwin
Chris Ivy
Bill Huggins

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Posted By: Jeff Prizner

You can send all these emails and ask for responses, but what will that truly accomplish? If anyone is doing alterations on cards they will also have no problem with lying about it. How can we truly believe anything that comes from any of the auction houses, as their responses here are also inherently financially motivated.

Doug admitted (right or wrong) what Mastro does to cards before they submit them and I respect him for that, but the others that come here and simply say "we don't do that and never have," how can we believe them?

Should we just continue to assume whatever they say is true and say "thanks for posting!"

I'm thinking after all the heat that Doug has taken, your responses (denials) from others will all typically look about the same.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

If they lie, hopefully the truth will come out somewhere.

I think the process has value--give it a chance.

Jim

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Jim is right: if one of the auction heads lies about his answer it will come out sooner or later in my opinion. So far Mastro is the only major auction house that actively cracks cards out and provides at least some level of alteration without disclosure.

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Posted By: Jeff Prizner

ok, but I think it's very naive to think Mastro is the only house that will clean cards or press out wrinkles, regardless of how the others have and will respond.

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Posted By: JimB

Brian Drent does not grade for PSA. I bought some cards from him about a couple of years ago that were graded by GAI. He was about to send a group of cards to PSA for grading. I asked if he could include mine for crossover with his group before mailing them out to me. He did and only one of four crossed to PSA in the same grade. PSA did cross one of the others when I re-submitted it personally at the National about six months later. All of my experiences with Brian Drent have left me with only the best things to say about him. I think he is one of the good guys in the hobby.
JimB

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Posted By: JimCrandell

E-Mails have been sent to the 5 Dealers mentioned above.

For those e-mailing me personally and asking that certain dealers be included, I think we should wait a day or two after these five have responded. It is also possible that others like Clean Sweep could just jump in with their thoughts.

Jim

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- as per the FYS post above, there are a number of larger auction houses you left out. Care to ask them to step forward? Can't hurt.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Barry,

I am aware of that--can we give it one day to space them out--also might be interesting to see if any respond proactively.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Maybe what you need, Jim, is a new forum... one for slabbed cards, or for slabbed card collectors, or something. I suspect that a lot of the folks that look at these slabbed threads could care less, and a few actually find these threads a pain. Seems much ado about nothing to me.

What collectors need to focus on is learning about the cards they collect, so they themselves can ascertain authenticity and a lack of tampering (if important to them), then buy cards only if there is a return policy. This nonsense of "no returns on graded cards" is a way to hide behind what some slabber has done. Threads about learning about the cards would apply to all here.

Until a few months ago I didn't even know what an SMR was, and I don't care even now... but I did know who Jerry Upp was, which Lelivelt was depicted on E254 and who the other one was, knew about Bull Durham's 2 families, knew the pitchers McGraw got out of Indianapolis, knew who in T206 went to Ty Cobb's funeral, knew who Sleepy Burns was, and knew about the numbers and increasing scarcity on T222 cards. THAT is the stuff for threads, at least it is for me.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Frank,

We all know your opinion on graded cards--I think the response to this has been strong--if you don't like it then don't respond but I and I think many others consider this the number one issue that the hobby faces today. The whole Doug Allen thread was fascinating.

Jim

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Posted By: JimB

I miss the old Dealer Surveys they annually did in VCBC. I know it would be a lot of work to organize, but it would be great if this website or Old Cardboard magazine would do something like that again. I think that too would be very informative.
JimB

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Posted By: Harry Wallace (HW)

Jim,

It will be interesting to see the dealer's responses. I have personally heard two of them openly discuss "prepping" cards for getting grading. This was done out in the open at a major card show.

I even saw one wince when a card came back a 7 that he thought was an 8, but was not concerned when another came back a 5 because he said that he must not have gotten the wrinkle out completely and it could still be fixed and come back an 8.

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Posted By: DJ

I agree with Frank.

While this is all fascinating, Jim, your "witch hunt" to get the truth has turned the "Kelly and Regis Show" into "Nightline" by simply dominating the VBC Forum to a point of where it's focus is basically on your project, which does have some great value and I'm in no means attacking you, but too much is too much. But do you have to dominate this Forum to a point of where it's unreadable to those who care little about this subject?

Also, you expect honest answers from people, but don't you find it a tad ironic that some brand new Yahoo account posters who have lurked 2-3+ years (JimNewmanPSAguy, Solomon...) are suddenly active on this post and agreeing with you with very similar writing styles? Hmmm. Are you them Jim? It's all about honesty and answers here, remember?

I know what your response will be toward me Jim, same as Frank's and I think I will simply take a month off from the VBC Forum and hope that when I return, we can return to the old and talk about the joy of collecting.

Just my two cents...but to be honest with you Jim, none of the answers so far have surprised me. Whenever there is easy money to be made, there is a line. This is why high grade cards have never really interested me. Some of the answers have disappointed me from certain individuals as well.

Good luck with your project. I mean it.

DJ

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Posted By: JimCrandell

DJ,

First,Solomon Kramer is a well known guy in the hobby.

Second, Jim PSA guy can identify himself if he would like but rest assured not only is he not me but I would never resort to posting under an assumed name.

Many have been encouraging me here("post of the decade" one said) and I am of the belief that this is the major issue facing the hobby today. I
am on Network 54 to discuss serious hobby issues and there is none more serious than this.

If the majority would like me to stop I will but I am of the belief that this is a great service to the hobby and that the majority support it.

Jim

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Posted By: ScottIngold

I would imagine that Jim... as in Crandell could come up with a better name than one that begins with his own first name.

As to the recently started threads. I am in full support.

If i am spending my money in these auctions. I at least want to be able to make an informed choice as to who to deal with.

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

Is that I see no inconsistency between the joy of collecting and discussions of alterations. Certainly the latter is of concern to many collectors, and not all of us are sophisticated enough to spot these on our own so for better or worse we rely on third party grading. Condemning people who do that is like condemning people who can't figure out the law on their own so they consult a lawyer.

As for Jim's effort, perhaps many of the responses will be pat and meaningless, but then again Doug Allen certainly revealed information that surprised (and obviously disturbed) many people here. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Finally, I don't think it's fair to characterize it as a witch hunt. From what I can see Jim is not out to "get" anyone but to try to obtain information.

If you don't find it interesting or important, don't read it.

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Posted By: cmoking

I am interested in hearing responses from all the auction houses. I don't see this as a witch hunt. This is not a case of damned if they respond and damned if they don't. Each auction house has the right to decide whether to respond, how to respond or not to respond at all. For those that care about these threads, as I do, we have a right to make of their responses or lack thereof as we see fit.

The more transparency there is, the better it is for collectors that care about cards in graded holders. Many collectors here care about cards in holders, so I imagine many collectors here care about the possible responses.

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Posted By: Anthony N ex

I'm very interested in hearing the responses from various auction houses as well. I think this is an issue that effects everyone in the hobby either directly or indirectly, and the information is valuable. Whether it effects your buying habits or not is a personal decision, but I would much rather make that decision armed with all the facts as they are presented.
I"m especially interested in knowing what lots are house owned, as opposed to consigned by 3rd parties, and would definitely base some of my buying decisions on those that designate non consigned lots as such.

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Posted By: DJ

Thank you Jim for your response. Maybe "witch hunt" wasn't the proper term for this. Can we compare it to McCarthy-ism then? One dealer at a time on stand?

Kidding.

Well aware that if I don't like a thread, I don't need a respond. If it was one thread, I wouldn't have said anything. Hence Peter, my vacation begins.

DJ

Edited to add, but didn't want this popping to the top:

Jim, I know you aren't those people.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

DJ,

I also promise you that I am not Scott Ingold, Peter Spaeth, Cmoking or Anthony Nex.

Jim

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

On November 14, I posted a thread called "W502 Back Mystery?". It was exactly the type of thread some folks are talking about - a thread about the cards, where we can all share information and learn something. The thread has 30 responses, and 10 are from me, just trying to keep the thread alive.

Conversely, this issue has generated well over 100 responses in just a few days, on a holiday weekend, from regular posters and lurkers alike. Clearly this is an issue that concerns a lot of people. I see nothing wrong with what Jim is trying to discover, as it's something that concerns every collector, regardless of whether or not they collect graded cards. To me, the threads make for interesting and enlightening reading.

-Al

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I agree with Frank W and DJ......

We may not be a majority on this Forum, as a good number of us collect BB cards for
the pure enjoyment of this great hobby; just as we did when we kids. We enjoy the
pictures of our favorite stars on the fronts of the cards; and, we find the bios on the
backs very interesting and informative. When is the last time some of you actually read
the backs of your cards, rather than the label on your graded piece of plastic ?

Even reading the backs of T206's can be meaningful, as it helps us to understand the
various Tobacco Companies and where they were based.......And, the Surgeon General
has declared that reading the backs of Tobacco cards are NOT deleterious to your health.

Seriously though, alteration of collectibles (coins, stamps, BB cards, etc.) has been around
since back in the 19th Century and all this "amateur lawyering" being conducted here is
not going to stop it. And, this "INQUISITION" really does not belong on this Forum. Hey, I
can tune in to "Law & Order" or even "Perry Mason" to catch some courtroom action.

And, some say we can just "tune out" these Threads, if they don't apply to us. Well, you
are missing the true intent of this Forum.....which in my opinion is to share and gain some
meaningful knowledge regarding BB cards and at times....personal stories or experiences
of Net 54 members.

And indeed, Threads like these just exhaust the "OXYGEN" out of this entire Forum and only
generate tension among members.....Life is too short to contend with this kind of crap.

I....for one....am considering "dropping off" for awhile....as this contention is not worth
my time or effort.

T-Rex TED

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

that people who collect raw cards seem to presume that people who collect graded cards enjoy them less? That is really obnoxious.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Sorry you feel that way Ted--there are a large number of us however who are passionate about this issue. And I participate on this board for entirely different reasons than you do--but that doesn't mean that there is not room for both of us. There won't be five new dealer threads every day--relax--particularly if certain dealers will not answer.

Jim

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Posted By: GoSoxBoSox

While this is indeed interesting reading I suspect all auction houses coming around to answer their respective "RFIs" will give the answers we want them to give at this point.

They'd be committing hobby suicide if they did anything different.

Let's face it ....exposing more "questionable practices" might make for a more informed buyer, but it won't help the value of your collections. That said, I think taking this further adds no additional value as a lot has already been revealed. But didn't we already know this stuff?

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Posted By: barrysloate

Obviously, the last 48 hours on this board have revealed a lot of information about graded baseball cards that trouble many, including myself. And clearly Jim Crandell is among those who are very concerned. While not everyone approves of his somewhat aggressive stand, I think he is making it clear that he wants some answers about what is going on behind the scenes. I realize for people who collect VG or raw cards this could be a nonissue. For those who have significant money in high end cards, it is an important issue. He may not get all of these dealers to come on and talk about their businesses, but that is each dealer's prerogative. Perhaps we can all do away with the word "witch hunt" though. For those who have responded Jim has been very polite and those dealers were happy to answer the tough questions. Let's just see how this all unfolds.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

1. I think the threads in question are valuable and on point and criticisms of Jim for going after the issue are not well taken. I think the continued threads to other marketers in the hobby are especially important given Mastro's apparent view that what they do is a consensus position in the hobby. As can be seen from the auctioneers who have come in and answered to date, Mastro's consensus view is anything but; it appears that the consensus is that those who view Mastro's actions as accepted are a minority of 1, i.e., Mastro. For that alone, the strings and emails are serving a valuable role, even if the result is that everyone but Mastro says "no we don't". Let them go on record with it.

2. I disagree with Frank and Ted on the question of whether anyone cares about these issues who isn't a slab freak. I care about these issues and the cards I collect most avidly (Exhibits) are rarely slabbed. The engine driving prices in the vintage field is the auctioning of graded cards. Issues that go to the core of that engine affect everyone who collects, whether they want to admit it or not.

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Posted By: JK

Jim,

I very much support what you are attempting to do and have enjoyed the threads and resulting discussions. Most if not all of us bid on cards sold by the major auctioneers - as mentioned above, I certainly want to hear their responses before deciding where to spend my money.

What I really do not enjoy reading is the continual posts from certain forum members who hate grading and see this as nothing more than a graded vs. non-graded issue. It most assuredly is not. It particularly galls me that those members somehow see those of us who do like graded cards as less informed and knowlegeable. I certainly have no problem judging a card on its merits (assuming its an issue Im familiar with) and in most instances, can spot fakes, trims, etc. given a good scan or if looking at a card in person. I am also knowlegeable about the issues I collect (and will learn about those I dont before I do). Regardless, I like slabs, particularly SGC slabs. I like how my cards stand out against the black border, I like the protection they afford, I like that I can display a slabbed card on a bookshelf (low light conditions only ) without having to worry about my two year old deciding it would make a fine picture to color. As Peter mentioned, it is really is obnoxious to assume that I get less enjoyment out of my cards or that I am less interested in learning about the hobby simply because I prefer graded cards (for what its worth, Ive bought plenty of unslabbed cards - I of course proceeded to get them slabbed ).

Further, in response to the opinion stated above (and others of similar nature) that the purpose of this board is "to share and gain some meaningful knowledge regarding BB cards and at times....personal stories or experiences of Net 54 members" - isnt that exactly what most of us feel is being accomplished by these threads (ie gaining meaningful knowledge)? If gaining such knowledge must be related only to the cards themselves, well, then I would like to know why it is that many topics seeking such knowledge (such as those referenced by Al C.) get very tepid responses. I will have to go back and see if any of the anti-graded card contingent even bothered to respond to Al's thread [edited to add that of those commenting in this thread, none responded in Al's post]. I know I have often encounted the same problem when Ive started threads asking for others to contribute their knowledge to help me learn more about the hobby. Finally, to those who dont like grading - we get that and I respect your view as well. All I ask is that you dont keep repeating it on every thread that involves grading - its not like I go to the threads that you do profess to enjoy reading (ie those about cards and the purity of the collecting experience itself) and seek to impose my view that the thread if of no interest because it doesnt involve graded cards or bash some grading company.

There, done, sorry for the rant. [Edited for spelling, missing words, etc].

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Posted By: barrysloate

I agree with Josh that this is a much bigger issue than graded vs. non-graded. It is more about ethics and conducting business in good faith.

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Posted By: John S

Barry and others make some interesting points. I do not collect high end material (my pre-war collection averages GD-VG), less than 1% of my collection resides in slabs (nothing against slabs, just not my cup of tea), and these recent threads, while disturbing, will not affect my collecting habits. Jim and others have valid concerns regarding the authenticity of high-end cards in their collections.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

JK,

That was very eloquent. I agree.

"The process Jim has started is one of those magical bullets, which arrived from a source perhaps unexpected, at a time unforecast, but with enough billow to change the hobby."

--E,Daniel

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Posted By: ScottIngold

Jim,

Have you recieved any answers ?.... Even privete ?

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Scott,

Cannot check my home e-mail from work but I sent the e-mails from work so I think the five companies I sent the e-mail to would respond at work.

I am not close to making a judgment on anyone yet but if a company does not respond I would be inclined to view that negatively--or if they agree among themselves not to respond they are badly misreading the sentiment of collectors.

Jim

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

Card altering is a very big issue for graded as well as raw cards. I support Jim in asking these questions. Not all altered cards wind up in slabs.

Getting the responses of auctioneers on record is a good thing. Dishonesty will eventually be discovered.

Frank

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Posted By: Wesley

Jim,

You have posed many interesting questions and we have gotten a number of varied responses. In light of the responses, has your opinion of any of the auction houses changed? Do you now hold in higher esteem or lower esteem the following firms?


1) Mastro

2) REA

3) Verkman

4) Gaynor

5) Huggins&Scott


Thanks,
Wesley

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Wesley,

I have had opinions about the first four before this exercise. I did not know the fifth.

I don't want to say things in public that I cannot prove so I will refrain from commenting--at least for now.

Jim