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#1
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Quote:
Graig Nettles, Ken Boyer, Buddy Bell, Sal Bando, Darrell Evens, Ron Cey and Toby Harrah all had a higher OPS+ than Brooks Robinson. Why aren't they all in the HoF? Your simplistic argument is that if a player has a higher OPS, we should ignore all other batting stats and defense. Sorry, that is ridiculous. Players aren't elected to the HoF strictly on offense. |
#2
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1923
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1971 Pirates Ticket Quest: 98 of 153 regular season stubs (64%), 14 of 14 1971 ALCS, NLCS , and World Series stubs (100%) If you have any 1971 Pirate regular season game stubs (home or away games) please let me know what have! 1971 Pirates Game used bats Collection 18/18 (100%) |
#3
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1933 DeLong
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140 successful b/s/t transactions My collection: https://www.instagram.com/collectingbrooklyn/ |
#4
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Quote:
Graig Nettles Ken Boyer Buddy Bell Sal Bando Darrell Evans Ron Cey Toby Harrah Players on your list who were better 3B than Pie Traynor: Graig Nettles (insanely better 3B than Traynor) Ken Boyer (insanely better 3B than Pie Traynor) Buddy Bell (insanely better 3B than Pie Traynor) Sal Bando (insanely better 3B than Pie Traynor) Darrell Evans Ron Cey Do they belong in the HOF? Not saying that. Just that they are all (minus Toby Harrah) better than Pie Traynor. I would also add the following non-HOF 3B as easily better than Pie Traynor: Scott Rolen Robin Ventura Stan Hack Bob Elliot Heinie Groh Matt Williams Others who a good argument could be made that they are better than Traynor: Tommy Leach Troy Glaus Tim Wallach Gary Gaetti Ken Caminiti So, by the time of Traynor's retirement, the following players were better or a good argument could be made that they were better, than Pie Traynor: Frank Baker Jimmy Collins Heinie Groh Tommy Leach Your statement that Traynor is "better all around" than Baker and Jimmy Collins is laughably inaccurate. Collins was at least as good a hitter and far better defensively. Baker was a far better hitter and at least Traynor's equal defensively, if not slightly better. Tom C |
#5
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Quote:
Hitting data is also incomplete, but from partial data, we know Pie was very good in clutch situations, but NO data on Baker or Collins. Pie also had a longer peak which resulted in higher counting stats as well as have a much higher BA, but you only consider that for Brooks to hate on Pie. It is truly sad that people now completely disregard the opinions of experts for opinions of the uneducated misusing statistics and analytical methods. Pie was the best 3rd baseman of the first 80-90 years of MLB and no one is close. Having a website on the internet and post contrasting opinions will never change that fact. Last edited by rats60; 10-24-2017 at 09:10 AM. |
#6
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http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/...on/pie_traynor http://www.hallofstats.com/player/traynpi01 https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/exam...me-selections/ https://books.google.com/books?id=Xy...20fame&f=false https://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/20...-third-basemen |
#7
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Dick Bartell on Pie Traynor:
“He had some deficiencies that you weren’t aware of unless you played next to him. When making a throw to second base he would lob the ball like a shot put instead of throwing it.” Tom C |
#8
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Additional reading for the misinformed. I particularly like the following:
"That leaves three players in the conversation with Traynor. They were Home Run Baker, Heinie Groh, and Larry Gardner. I prefer Gardner, though reasonable people could disagree with me. I also prefer Groh, and it would take a less reasonable person or less thoughtful analysis to select Traynor over Groh. And Baker? There’s no way a reasonable person could find Traynor and Baker even comparable. Baker was far and away better. To help you make up your mind, I created the below chart of guys ranked by my eqWAR at the same level at their positions as Baker and Traynor at 3B. 3B Home Run Baker Pie Traynor C Gabby Hartnett Rick Ferrell 1B Pete Rose Harry Stovey 2B Bobby Grich Del Pratt SS Luke Appling Dick Bartell LF Goose Goslin Mike Smith CF Richie Ashburn George Van Haltren RF Reggie Jackson Brian Giles To understand and agree with my point, you need not agree that the players above are ranked where I have them. Hell, I don’t know if I agree with my rankings. You only need to believe the player on the left is better than the player on the right." https://homemlb.wordpress.com/2013/1...d-pie-traynor/ Tom C |
#9
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Interesting discussion. Gives me chance to post my card (my only Traynor).
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