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#1
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Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis) variations
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Pat I have very clearly stated that the Demmitt and O'Hara (New York variations) are 350-only subjects. And, I'm NOT "classifying" the Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis) variations as "350/460 series subjects". I am simply proposing that (with respect to the POLAR BEAR runs) they were printed on the same sheet as the 350/460 series subjects. My research indicates that the Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis) variations could NOT have been printed in the 1st press run of the POLAR BEAR cards with the 350-only subjects. Several surveys have confirmed this fact, because the quantities of POLAR BEAR cards in this press run are relatively low. Whereas, the subsequent press runs of 350/460 sub- jects were printed with much greater quantities of POLAR BEAR backs. Quantities which are consistent with the numbers of known Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis) cards. Therefore, with respect to the POLAR BEAR population, the Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis) variations timeline is very likely circa..Summer/Fall 1910. I have qualified my 350/460 series Checklist, which I've included the Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis) variations, to note that these 2 subjects were also printed with this group. TED Z . |
#2
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Interesting theory on the Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis) variations. I agree that the population numbers are more in line with the 350/460 print group. The sad reality is it makes these two key cards which many consider their base set complete at 518 cards without them, the two most common Polar Bear cards out of the 250 different Polar Bears issued.
I'm currently working on a Polar Bear Back subset. I have about 20 to go. I recommend this subset to others. It is a challenge to put together but not impossible. There really isn't any one card difficult (I don't count Dopner in the set) but the difficulty does follow the print groups. During my journey I can say that Print Group 460 is most difficult and Print Group 350 is a bit more easy. Print Group 350/460 cards are almost always available. Polar Bears are condition rare so for a real challenge, a PSA 4/SGC 50 or higher set would keep you busy. One last thing about the Polar Bear subset is once your done, your nearly 50 percent complete of a 524 card T206 set.
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Ron - Uncle Nacki T206 Master Monster Front/Back Set Collector - www.youtube.com/unclenacki T206 Basic "The Monster" Set 514/524 T206 Advanced "Master Monster" Front/Back Set ????/5258 COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS Old Mill Southern Leagues - Black Ink 48/48 Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 Full Color "No Prints" 28/28 NEAR COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS Polar Bear 245/250 Sovereign 460 50/52 Sweet Caporal 150 Factory 649 Overprint 31/34 Piedmont 350 "Elite 11" 9/11 |
#3
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T206 POLAR BEAR's
* * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * *
. . 350/460 series subjects Hi Ron I'm impressed, 230 - POLAR BEAR's....that's quite an achievement. I will tell you of the other factor (besides the large population of the 350/460 series POLAR BEAR cards) that led me to thinking that American Litho must of printed Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis variations) in the 350/460 press run. Check-out my concept of a 72-card sheet arrangement ** of the Sovereign 66 subjects which I like to refer to as the "phantom 350/460 series". Consider this: Joe Doyle and Bob Rhoades had retired prior to this POLAR BEAR press run. So, those 2 guys are removed and replaced by Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis) cards. I say it may have been as simple as that. As Mel Allen (great ole sportscaster) would say "How's about that ? v.................................... Six super-prints ....................................v .................................................v Joe Doyle v (2nd row down) .................................................. .................................................. ^ Rhoades ^ (above Wilhelm) ** Note I have shown the 6 super-prints Double-Printed on this arrangement because several large surveys have indicated as such. TED Z . |
#4
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Ted, In my opinion the Demmitt and O'Hara populations are in line with
many of the 350 series commons. The majority of the Demmitt and O'Hara's would be graded even in lower grades because of their value while most of the lower grade PB commons wouldn't. There are 111 Demmitts and 101 O'Hara's in the PSA pop reports. There are several 350 series PB commons in the 25-30 pop report range with Fred Beck having the most at 37. On ebay there are four becks and three of the four are ungraded, while you seldom see an ungraded Demmitt or O'Hara's for sale. Of the 111 Demmitt's 37 are lower than a two (1 out of 3) and 29 out of the 101 O'Hara's ( 1 out of 3.4) are below a 2. Only 3 of the 37 (1 out of 12+) of the becks are lower than a 2. |
#5
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Pat
With all due respect....where are you getting your numbers ? There is absolutely no comparison with 350-only series PB pop #'s vs 350/460 series PB pop #'s. For example...... DEMMITT.....230 (approx.) O'HARA........255 (approx.) 350/460 series COBB red.....232 COBB bat.....141 350-only series Speaker.........78 Beckley..........54 Bresnahan......51 McGinnity.......46 Furthermore, information from Scot's 100,000+ survey support what I have stated regarding the differences in printing quantities of PB cards vs 350-only, 350/360. and 460-only series. TED Z . |
#6
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Quote:
compared to the 350 series Polar Bears. The numbers I provided were from the PSA Polar Bear pop reports comparing the Demmitt and O'Hara to Fred Beck who is also from the 350 series, Here are the combined PSA and SGC #'s Demmitt 231 total with 93 lower than a grade of 2 (A , 1 or 1.5) = 1 out of 2.4 below a 2 O'Hara 217 total 80 below a 2 = 1 out of 2.7 below a 2 Beck 56 total 7 below a 2 = 1 out of 8 below a 2 To me this is in line with what I would expect considering how many Demmitt and O'Hara's would be graded compared to Beck. Wouldn't you agree that Demmitt and O'Hara would be 3 or 4 times more likely to be graded than a Fred Beck Polar Bear? |
#7
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I figured that I would post population totals of Polar Bears for HOF's graded by PSA and SGC combined, broken down in print groups. Now I already know that these are just numbers and who knows what has been broken out and re-graded, or what backs are on the graded cards before PSA cared to identify them, or that quantities of cards are not counted from SGC because it was before they were keeping track of player pose. The purpose of this is to show a current average of cards across the print groups at this time.
I chose HOF's because they are more likely to be graded than a common player. PRINT GROUP 2 (350 SERIES) BECKLEY - 55 BRESNAHAN - BATTING - 49 COLLINS, JIMMY - 58 KELLEY - 60 MCGINNITY - 47 SPEAKER - 69 PRINT GROUP 3 (350-460 SERIES) BAKER - 133 BENDER - NO TREES - 87 BROWN - CHICAGO ON SHIRT - 141 COBB - BAT OFF - 141 CRAWFORD - WITH BAT - 81 GRIFFITH - BATTING - 108 JENNINGS - ONE HAND - 92 JENNINGS - TWO HANDS - 50 JOHNSON - GLOVE AT CHEST - 155 JOSS - HANDS AT CHEST - 170 LAJOIE - WITH BAT - 125 TINKER - BAT OFF - 67 WILLIS - BATTING - 61 WILLIS - THROWING - 97 YOUNG - WITH GLOVE - 149 PRINT GROUP 4 (460 SERIES) CHANCE - BATTING - 24 DUFFY - 38 MARQUARD - PITCHING - 78 MCGRAW - GLOVE AT HIP - 37 MCGRAW - PORTRAIT WIT CAP - 34 TINKER - BAT ON - 29 WHEAT - 39 PRINT GROUP 5 (SUPER PRINTS) CHANCE - YELLOW PORTRAIT - 155 COBB - RED PORTRAIT - 272 EVERS - CHICAGO ON SHIRT - 132 MATHEWSON - DARK CAP - 188
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Ron - Uncle Nacki T206 Master Monster Front/Back Set Collector - www.youtube.com/unclenacki T206 Basic "The Monster" Set 514/524 T206 Advanced "Master Monster" Front/Back Set ????/5258 COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS Old Mill Southern Leagues - Black Ink 48/48 Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 Full Color "No Prints" 28/28 NEAR COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS Polar Bear 245/250 Sovereign 460 50/52 Sweet Caporal 150 Factory 649 Overprint 31/34 Piedmont 350 "Elite 11" 9/11 Last edited by Ronnie73; 07-02-2017 at 06:24 PM. |
#8
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Demmitt (St Louis)
Hey T206 set collectors,
Searching for an affordable Demmitt (St Louis) card ? You might consider a T213-2 Demmitt....the image is exactly the same....if you don't mind the blue caption and it's different team name There is usually one for sale on ebay for about $100 - 200. Just think of the $$$$ you save....you can spend it on more T206's. . TED Z . Last edited by tedzan; 12-26-2017 at 09:36 AM. Reason: Added scan. |
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