How Long Before Hedge Funds Control The Rare Card Market?

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Posted By: Sandy Schwartz

"It is all well and good to have an open debate and to give thought about the future direction
of rare card collecting and its investment potential. It is our hope, however, that some of
the posters who appear to be afraid of a major money market investor do their homework
before posting."

No fears here, I'll take my SGC 60 and head home. Guess I'm just a measly collector, what a shame. Not a knock on the Bruces, I'm just at a different end of the collecting spectrum.

Leon, suggestion for the new board (which looks great by the way) ... how about a separate section for "Investment-Grade Collectors", where folks like Mr. Dorskind can have his audience but not at the expense of collectors like me who just love the cards and the history of baseball, and are not hung up on the finances. Or maybe a section called "Pre-War $$$$" ... or something else that the board members here can come up with.

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Posted By: Joann

I understand exactly what you are saying Sandy, but I think I have to disagree. As much as I am offended by Bruce personally, his way of collecting and looking at it is as legitimate as any other. Although I am firmly cemented into the "collector grade" layer of the hobby, I can see that people like Bruce and Jim C that collect with an eye to the financial part of it are just as firmly part of the hobby as well.

With so much money in these cards, I don't know if it will ever be "just a hobby". You can't not think about the money at some of these levels.

I think it's really all just a continuum. There is almost no pure hobby/collecting end and almost no pure financial/investment end. Everyone has the mix in varying proportions. I am firmly a collector, but would never say that I don't consider the financial aspects of collecting (including hoping for card value appreciation over time). I also think that Jim and Bruce, as much as they are looking at the financial aspects, are pretty clearly passionate about the hobby and cards too.

So I think we all benefit by seeing the mix and play of both aspects of collecting.

Just my opinion.

Joann

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Somehow I suspect with the recent implosion on Wall Street, the misuse of mortgage-backed securities, etc....there will not be any hedge funds collecting baseball cards anytime soon. Just a hunch.

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Posted By: Bob

<<<< Leon, suggestion for the new board (which looks great by the way) ... how about a separate section for "Investment-Grade Collectors", where folks like Mr. Dorskind can have his audience but not at the expense of collectors like me who just love the cards and the history of baseball, and are not hung up on the finances. Or maybe a section called "Pre-War $$$$" ... or something else that the board members here can come up with. >>>>>

Sandy, what a great idea. I'll second that motion.

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Posted By: Robert Klevens

This thread was started on October 2007.

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Posted By: Rob D.

Let's just have 200 categories -- heck, make it 500 -- so we can ensure that no one will ever stumble upon a topic or comment that he or she doesn't agree with 100 percent.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Definitely need a section for religion, politics, and abortion. That would always be good for at least a hundred posts a day.

And hedge funds will never invest in baseball cards. That's for the individual collector to do.

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Posted By: Sandy Schwartz

Hi Joann, point I was making was not whether the financial view of the hobby is legitimate, of course it is. In fact, the importance of that view, you can argue, justifies having its own thread. Just saying that Leon has an opportunity to organize that discussion and funnel the finance-driven folks into a channel of their own. Benefits: 1) The finance folks will have a $$$$-focused place to call home and not have to sift thru other thread noise
2) Folks like me can OPT to read the $$$ thread if and when we choose.

I can only speak for myself. I visit Net54 for the wonderfully educational, interesting and entertaining card-focused, baseball-focused, history-focused threads. The purer the content, the more likely I am to enjoy it. I'm sure there are many who'd agree, but equally as many who might not.

I agree with you Joann, $$$-driven folks are just as much a part of the hobby, but I believe there's enough of a divide between those folks and the "collector grade" folks like you and I, to warrant a content segregation on the new site. If Leon and the community feel otherwise, that's absolutely fine! It's quite possible that the more threads the new site has, the more confusing the site may get, that's certainly a risk. I do disagree with RobD though, this is not about stumbling on something I don't agree with, it's more of an organizational thing ... like the folks who have been advocating a separate OT category in Leon's recent thread.

Just my humble opinion. Net54 will continue to be a wonderful place to visit on a daily basis regardless.

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Posted By: bruce Dorskind

We are quite astounded that Joann finds our approach offensive.
In fact three times in the last year she has written to us to
secure advise or opinion.

We would certainly not communicate directly with someone who we
found to be offensive.

More to the point

1.The market has changed significantly since our original post.
We agree with Mr. Lichtman that the hedge funds are unlikely to
look at any "out of the box" investments.

2. The market for ultra rare high grade cards with a price of
$2500+ is relatively small (less than 100 serious collectors) and
we don't believe that such a market warrants consideration from a
hedge fund.

3. There is no need to have a distinct section for investment grade
collectibles. Perhaps we should have a section for beaters, reprints
and ungraded cards

4. The most interesting aspect of the Board is the diversity of opionion.

5. We have collected ultra rare high grade type cards longer than 75% of
the board members have been alive. The market for these cards remains fiercely competitive...which is good... prices have dropped about 20% from their peak- but we still believe said cards to be a solid investment.
However, we are collectors not investors.

6. America is about cut throat competition and survival of the smartest,
most dedicated and most fiercely competitive. We view other collectors as
the competition. We enjoy competing against them.


Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want List

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Posted By: Rich Klein

Is that Mr. Dorskind created this thread JUST (or real real close) to the Stock Market peak in 2007. Since then, the market has come tumbling down. I wonder if Bruce thinks his prediction is any closer to occuring today then it was two years ago.

Bruce; I'd (and I hope others) would be curious to see if anything in your opinion(s) posts on this subject have evolved in the past couple of years.

Regards
Rich

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Posted By: Jamie

Which begs the question: should Network54 members even be allowed to hold money? Perhaps cards should only be exchanged through bartering. Money just destroys the sanctity of the cards, right?

We could bring back the Knights of Templar so the cards are not desecrated through the exchange of money.

Really, we should take the following steps:

1. Condemn money as evil, as it is desecrating our hobby.
2. Revive the Knights of Templar to hold all the money.
3. Condemn all those who might consider the value of their investments as evil, and banish them from the board.
4. The rest of us all hold hands and make little altars of pre-war cards to worship multiple times throughout the day.

All this, because pre-war baseball players never cared about making money. Or did they?

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Posted By: Marty Ogelvie

My favorite Pre War Player Hal Chase played meerly for the love of the game!!!

marty

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Posted By: Joann

Maybe I just lead a sheltered life in which I don't run across bad people and bad things. Maybe I just have a really inaccurate perception of the world as filled with generally good people because I have not personally run across the negative to any great extent.

Maybe that is why I am sitting here completely stunned at this line from Bruce:

<<<<<We are quite astounded that Joann finds our approach offensive. <br>In fact three times in the last year she has written to us to
secure advise or opinion. >>>>>

Wow. That is a complete, 100% outright lie. I have never emailed Bruce at all for any reason. Not once for anything. Nothing here is unclear, nothing ambiguous. There is no email ever so there is no way that Bruce could somehow mistake something I sent as a request for advice. Nothing.

So this is completely made up out of thin air, and I am totally shocked that someone would just outright lie. Make it up. Invent it. Maybe I shouldn't be shocked. Maybe that's just naive of me to think that people don't just make things up and lie. Wow.

Bruce - no one that reads this board for any length of time would ever think that I would ever email you for any reason at all, based on my very public contempt for your disdain for people with low incomes.

And a plain reading of my post shows that you are completely wrong. I do not find your approach distasteful. In fact, the point of my post was to say that it is a legitimate collecting approach. What I find distasteful is you.

Joann

(And Sandy - although I still believe that there is benefit to having all different collecting styles in the same threads, I really appreciate your very well-thought out and reasoned response. I completely understand it.)

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Jeepers, Bruce. What's that all about?

-Al

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Just to be clear, for those keeping score at home, I am not, nor I have I ever been, "the Bruces."

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Posted By: Rob D.

Anyone seen Bruce?

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Posted By: Anonymous

i had the brief thought of a group of investors price skimming cards at a loss- that is, driving down the price of cards on ebay, then buying cards of competitors up as they lowered their prices, attempting to create a monopoly. Collectors would not have much else to turn to, so they would be forced to buy at the higher price.

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Posted By: Matt

"driving down the price of cards on ebay" - how would that work in an auction?

My Trade/Sale Page

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Posted By: JDRUM

"i had the brief thought of a group of investors price skimming cards at a loss- that is, driving down the price of cards on ebay, then buying cards of competitors up as they lowered their prices, attempting to create a monopoly. Collectors would not have much else to turn to, so they would be forced to buy at the higher price."

I am not sure any of the Buy-It-Now Commandos on ebay will ever lower their prices.

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Posted By: Anonymous

you could sell cards via buy it now cheaper than what is out there today. out of curiosity, does anyone ever actually buy those ridiculously priced cards in seller stores? How do they sell them?

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Posted By: John Cook

"you could sell cards via buy it now cheaper than what is out there today. out of curiosity, does anyone ever actually buy those ridiculously priced cards in seller stores? How do they sell them?"

I have bought a few, but only if they're close to what I would pay at auction. Most are ridiculous. However, I think in this market there are sellers who need to make sales and are listing Buy In Nows that will move.