Baseball Card corruption

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Posted By: marshall barkman

I thought this should be a follow up post to Bruce's concerns about who and what the government is investigating because i find it odd that people actually think the baseball card world is legit. I have been buying and selling baseball cards for 20 years and not the nickel and dime type cards. I have also attended several major card shows that bring out PSA,SGC and all major card dealers. The entire hobby is corrupt and the amount of honest people in the high end card game is very slim. Here is a prime example. I recently got into a riff with some of the members on this board and they basically called me out over some clown named Billy who i did not know and acted like i did not pocess alot of T-206 cards and actually questioned if a imposter was posting for me which i found amusing. I will say that Leon is a class act and sent a personal e-mail which let me know he does actually care and has a passion for cards and the people that own them. Of the 1500 T-206 cards that i own i decided to send a collection that i bought which consisted of 250 cards and they had some real strong Southern Leauguers in it. I have always suspected that the card graders such as PSA are totally corrupt and will always give better grades to dealers and also in regards to PSA protect graded cards which are in their set registry. I sent the cards to a auction house and allowed the owner to send them in, we spoke over the phone before they were sent and out of 125 cards my personal grading was off on only 2 cards when they got slabbed. The cards were sent to PSA and the grading was correct. After the auction ended i had to basically get rude in order to recieve my money so i decided to skip sending anymore of my cards to auction because it was a very uncomfrotable scene and i am very old school so without saying anymore trust me my friends somehow someway i am gonna get Paid. I spoke personally to Joe Orlando who is the CEO of PSA and told him about my concerns because i am not a dealer and also spoke of the cards i own and that i would like the same consideration as other high end dealers when submitting cards, we worked out a arrangement but i am no dummy so instead of sending in some T-206's i started with some 1944 Gum Inc American Beauties just in case old Joe and the graders brought their Brett Favre game. If the cards were graded honestly their value is around 7,500. These cards were cello packed pulled and out of 48 cards their was at least 2 10's and about 7-10 9's some of which would have been the first ever found 9's. The cards basically never saw the light of day for 60 years because they were in a chest in the attic on a board which had 12 cello packs attached to it and a dealer who saw my post in the non-sports section offered me 5 figures for the cards and the board . Let me also state for the record that i have submitted to Beckett about 200 cards of which over 175 have been graded BGS 9.5 and some BGS 10 which is not easy to do and up until these cards i have submitted to PSA about 9 cards of which all came back PSA Gem-Mint 10 except for a Pujols rookie and Billy Butler rookie which i knew were 9's. I just got online and saw that the grading for the American Beauties and out of 48 cards only 1 came back a 9 and isn't it odd that the particular card that got a 9 has 15 other 9's on the pop report which is no coincidence, how nice of PSA to throw me a bone. A majority of the cards were graded between 7 and 8 which is almost laughable due to how nice and clean the cards are and the fact that the cards were razor sharp with nothing on the back. There is no doubt in my mind that the cards were snubbed because i am not a dealer and that the cards in the set registry were protected, if a well known dealer had sent in the cards then they would have been graded correctly. Basically PSA just cost me about 5 thousand and Mr. Orlando will not return my phone calls so instead of taking it on the chin i think i'll take the shot and now start throwing some myself. I ask all the members of this board to ask this question- How many times have you cracked out a card from a PSA holder and then re-submitted it and the grade comes back 1 or 2 points lower? How can a 8 come back a 6.5 and a 6 come back a 4.5? How many times have you been at a card show and watched certain people get grades and then look at the card in the holder and just laugh? The answer is obvious the company is bogus and their is shady things going on all the time behind the scenes especially at the major card shows. I hope the government is investigating these fu#$%king goofballs and does something to clean up the hobby because i'm trying to figure out if Joe is friends with Bernie Madoff (-: unlike most card buyers who really don't want to express their opinion due to the retalition i have plenty of cash and alot of super nice cards and i'm not intimidated by any of these suedo auction houses or grading companies. PSA should change from Pro Sports Authenticator to Pro Scam Alliance. Good day Joe and i hope you and the rest of the snots that work for you read this post because your holders are not worth the plastic it cost to make them because of your inconsistent and manipulative grading.

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Posted By: Steve

It would be a better/easier read if you used some paragraphs.


I'll check back later.


Steve

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Posted By: Steve F

Marshall, Firstly, some page breaks would've been thoughtful to us old guys with weak peepers. That is one Mt Everest of a paragraph!

You asked about resubs. and since this is a PSA bash, here is my experience.

I've cracked a few dozen SGCs, BVGs and GAIs and sent to PSA over the past 5yrs or so (No modern crap, but lower grade prewar). Almost all scored the same and just a small fraction rec'd a slight bump. Of course I carefully selected which I thought should bump.

I'm not sure IK buy the notion that the graders are bumping exclusively for the big shots. I know if it were myself as the middle-income grader with the loop... If anyone was getting preferential treatment, it would be the little armpit collector receiving the 'edge'.

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Posted By: leon

I think Marshall got his point across though a few paragraphs and punctuation would help the reading. I have similar stories of preferential treatment too. If anyone ever gets a chance ask Roger Neufeldt ( a very nice and active dealer) about his grading experiences. They weren't much different than Marshall's. On a similar situation I just submitted a bunch of cards to SGC.....I was very disheartened with some of the grades and, though I very rarely do it, some will be going to PSA for examination (sans holder of course). There is no freaking way that one particular, valuable card, is what they said. No way. I looked at several other SGC examples in 1-2 grades higher and I am positive (as positive as I can be in looking under magnification) that this card deserves a bump up in grade. I just don't think they will bump high value cards up that are in their own holders even when they deserve it, for the most part. I know there are exceptions but that would be my summation.....best regards

edited to add that since I posted another Steve (hi Steve F) chimed in but my first thought was towards WinPitcher...

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Posted By: Max Weder

I can't speak one way or another from personal experience. However, my confidence in the grading system would be increased by any grading company that put a system in place which ensured that the grader was unaware of the identity of the person submitting the cards. My understanding is that neither PSA nor SGC has such a system in place.

Max

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Posted By: barrysloate

I agree with the first two comments- this is really hard to read, and to follow the argument.

If it is true that certain submitters get higher grades than others, and I've heard that rumor for years without any real proof, then that will be the end of the grading services.

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Posted By: Rich R

From PSA site concerning identity of the card owner:

"The receiving step is one of the most crucial steps in the PSA process. This is where all packages are logged in and separated based on their service level. Once the packages have been separated, each package is opened in priority of service and the cards are counted. After verifying the service level and payment, one of the most important steps in the grading process occurs.

The submissions are now assigned a generic order number, removing the identifying information from the order - thus removing the potential for bias. Finally, all of the pertinent data is entered from the PSA submission form, an email confirmation is sent out to the customer and your cards are off to the next stage."

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Posted By: leon

That story really should start out "Once upon a time...." I am sure Memory Lane and Jim Crandall and other PSA HOF'ers would never get special treatment though.....

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Posted By: Max Weder

Thanks Rich. I hadn't noticed that before on PSA's website. I remember bringing this point up a couple of years ago, and if I recall correctly, no one mentioned that it was there. Perhaps it has been recently added--or maybe it has been there for a number of years.

Max

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Posted By: barrysloate

Grading services are only as good as their reputations, which are built through accurate grading and authenticating. If their customers lose faith in that, there is nothing left and it all comes crashing down.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Barry--exactly which is why PSA would never give favoritism.



Leon--you are also correct here. I don't get any favoritism and if you asked Marshall. Loucious. Merkel, Spence I am sure they will tell you the same thing. In fact I had a fairly recent conversation with one who was very upset over his grades he got on a submission.

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Posted By: Bob

I am hardly a whale or one of the "big boys" but I do have a substantial collection, I believe. That said, I can only reiterate what I stated in a different thread, that I was told several years ago by a major auction house that they needed to send my consignment in for grading themselves because they would get higher grades than I could. I believe the guy at the auction house was being honest with me and he knew exactly what he was saying.
Anyone who thinks grading is entirely objective still believes in old Saint Nick. That said, I do continue to use grading companies for some of my cards, far from all though. I like the way SGC displays the 1911 Zeenut set (in their holders) I am working on but their grades are all over the map.

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Posted By: Fred C

I spoke with someone that told me that they could get guaranteed 8's for me on several cards I have. This was a few years ago and the person is a dealer, a well known reputable dealer. I wont go into the details but that kind of bugged me. I didn't send the cards in for submission (I know you guys probably think I'm stupid for not taking that opportunity).

In any case I still think it's a sham that PSA will only grade UP and not down. Nobody will be able to convince me that they only made initial mistakes and graded cards lower than they should have been. What a crock of crap.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Bob- is it possible the auction houses say that to improve their chances of getting your consignment? Because if it is true that they can get higher grades, they really should keep that under their hats. That's not the kind of thing that should ever be made public.

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Posted By: boxingcardman

Grading is not an objective truth, like math, as much as we'd like to think it is; it is a lot closer to art than science. I find that my personal grading scale is consistent with SGC's approach and I am rarely surprised with the results when I send them my cards. PSA has a different approach, one that baffles me on many counts, so I rarely send them any cards. Regardless, no third party grading service has the capacity to be 100% objective; mere human error associated with the judgments made in asessing a card will dictate some degree of randomness to the result. Cruise Ebay and it is easy to find overgraded and undergraded cards from every slabber. I suspect there is favoritism; I cannot prove it. I also suspect that most collectors have an overly optimistic view of their own cards' qualities.

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: JimCrandell

An auction house can potentially gety better grades as it can call Joe or Dave and discuss the particular card and ask him to take a second look. There is no way that the graders at PSA know whose card they are grading or that for example that Reza knows for example that this as a Memory Lane card.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Barry,

This isn't true either. I had a discussion with Doug Allen about putting 120 T206 psa 8s into the Mastro December auction. I mentioned I was also talking with two other auction houses. I asked him for his selling points on why use Mastro and he never indicated he could get better grades. He said he would list them all individually and his graders could cherry pick my best 8s and send them into PSA for review. I said why not send them all in if its for free and he argued against this.

Jim

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

If you are a collector, you buy the card and not the holder

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- anybody can ask PSA to take a second look and review cards. Why would someone need an auction house to do this?

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Posted By: Jason

wow people actually tried to read that train wreck of a post? Does the thread starter hate eyes?

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Posted By: Steve

Am I in some type of time warp? You mean there was no corruption
before PSA came into being?


lol


Steve

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Posted By: leon

No doubt there was corruption before PSA. I have many, many old articles to prove it. PSA just added to it by changing flip numbers on cards and not disclosing it (ala Memory Lane), grading the holy grail with a number...and other neat stuff like that. For the record I still do think PSA gets it right most of the time and I don't hate the company or Joe.....If I had to pick the hobby with or without them I would still pick it WITH them. regards

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Barry,

Exactly. Only reason is they have the stroke to more aggressively question the grade on the particular card. Also they unquestionably get a better rate.

Jim

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Posted By: quan

BREAKING NEWS: CORRUPTION AT PSA!!!!!!!++++++++

there may be some favortism at the grading companies, but OP i think ur just mad because PSA don't agree with your grading....and seriously we're talking about billy butler and albert pujols GEM MINT 10? i think i just saw them on the mlb network, i prolly should collect them???

obviously it's easier to predict grades on VG to EX cards (unless you have MINT sl'ers) than on 8-10s where it becomes more subjective.

i just sent in some 1990 OPC premier hockey...prepare for my state of the union in 2-3 weeks! stay tune...

edited for another news flash: any auction house that you have to "get rude" in order to get your consignment money...probably has no pull at PSA...(lol)

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Posted By: Fred C

Corruption... can we first define corruption?

Is grading a trimmed card (a very valuable one), right out the starting gate something that can be considered corruption?

Is grading a collection of T206s with obvious trimmed cards corrupt?

One definition of corrupt includes the following:

- guilty of dishonest practices, as bribery;
- lacking integrity;


I'm not sure if grading a valuable card, that was known to be trimmed, a corrupt act based on "guilty of dishonest practices" because if it's the first time you've graded anything, then it wasn't a "practice" to begin with. Now, if we look at "lacking integrity".... that would be something that was defined as the company kept up the practice of grading trimmed cards...

oh, please, turn this into a PSA sucks thread... oh, I'm sorry, I don't want to break my new years resolution of participating in PSA SUCKS threads so early in the year... but if someone else does I wont mind reading it... I'll try to refrain from participating though...

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Fred,

So because a dealer guarantees you will get 8s your read through on this is PSA is corrupt? Come on, you're smarter than that.

And as far as grading up but not grading down, they have already determined that the card meets the characteristics of an 8(8.00 to 8.99). You want them to revisit what they have already decided on or provide further detail on their original grade.

Jim

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

It really sucks when the grading company disagrees with you.

-Al

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Posted By: macboube

Is in the hands of PSA. They know and have verified with S. Hart that our cellos are real, they know they have been stored in a time capsule for 53 years. They know we are not dealers, but just a couple of fortunate souls who happened upon these cards. They know that money is not the over riding factor in our quest for high grades, etc. They know we seek to have a couple of the most incredible sets on the Planet. Our multitude of submissions of these Mint beauties have revealed the following:

1. Grading on the earlier submissions were by far the weakest.
2. The more we submitted, the seemingly higher the grades, however, in fairness to PSA, and by osmosis, we learned what to look for B4 submitting.
3. The whole system of review submissions in our minds is the most questionable of all their processes. First of all, a stringent guideline of standards should be adhered to always, making only one time original submissions necessary. There should be no need and no such thing as reviews.
4. We feel it is doubtful they resent newcomers, non-dealers, and favor the high end Set Registry holders. We are on the cusp of rattling many of those cages, and PSA knows it. They have expressed they know many of their serious high end Set Registry holders worlds were be crushed very soon, and that is the way things are. Particularly when the top set that every collector thought would never be toppled in any of our lifetimes, is about to be.

One things for certain, a corrupt industry or not, it sure is a lot of fun.

macboube

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Posted By: peter ullman

this sounds like "Risk"...the game of world domination.

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Posted By: Steve F

"A game of World domination played by a couple of idiots that can barely run their own lives."

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Posted By: Steve

Is owning a grading company and selling cards corruption?

Steve

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Posted By: Steve

I still have no idea what the OP was ranting about.

Well, I have some idea.

Steve

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Posted By: barrysloate

NEWMAN (after Jerry accuses him of trying to cheat at Risk): I'm a little insulted.

JERRY: You're not a little anything.

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Posted By: Anthony S.

I got through the entire paragraph. I think "suedo" was a Phil Collins song.

I've harbored similar thoughts for years, but I don't collect high-grade, so such shenanigans don't effect me. Soft corners help me sleep at night. Just like bourbon.

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Posted By: Anonymous

i kind if agree with the fellow, but i can't prove it. so i'll just leave it alone

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Posted By: leon

I am not sure who your grading comment was directed at but (no worries, it's all in fun debate)....I do think SGC is one of the most consistent graders, along with BVG, in the business. I consider some folks at both companies as friends and both do a good job. All that being said how would you feel about the grade of this D303?
(tiny spot of paper loss on back and no creases or wrinkles)

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Posted By: Bob

I will tell you it wasn't Mastro that told me that they could get better grades for their cards than I could.



Dan I agree 100% but when it comes time to sell them, especially a complete set, you would be surprised (or maybe not) how much more money you can get for your cards when they, or at least the "big cards" in the set are graded.

tbob

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Posted By: Bob

Leon- You are not alone old buddy. I have a couple of gorgeous E94s with no wrinkles or creases and a very, very tiny paper loss on the back, like yours, and they ended up as 10s. It's just hard to figure out. I know SGC hates paper loss and enamel loss on the front borders of cards but giving them 10s is something I can't stomach when I see other 10s that are mangled.
tbob

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Posted By: JimCrandell

I'm sure every dealer has told potential customers they can get better grades than they could--to attach any meaning to the comment is silly.

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Posted By: Scott Mt. Joy

Just from my own experience of sending in a number of bulk subs to both PSA and SGC.

IMO- SGC is much more consistent overall and I have crossed over 300 PSA cards in my collection this year for this reason (and much better looking slabs). The one down side is they hammer paper loss (how Leons card is not a 40 or 50 is beyond me, I have a couple that fall into the same boat, can drive you crazy). I feel like I get more of a personal touch with their service and have spoken to Michael many times and always seems like they care.

PSA for me has a lot more to do with the grader you get for that sub, sometimes you do great and other times I have been in disbelief over my grades. I had a sub where I felt nearly all of 100 cards were way off, I sent the 5 biggest ones back in (cracked out) and sure enough they got a 1-2 grade bump as I suspected. This is why PSA has lost a lot of my business. I also hate the qualifiers, they need to do away with them. Calling PSA is a nightmare and I just feel like they are a company with weak customer support (unless you are a prefered customer, auction house, whale, etc). The upside to PSA is if your selling cards in a contested registry you can make serious money on them (sometimes stupid money).

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Leon:



My last post was directed at the original poster, who's post seems, to me, to contain at least some degree of sour grapes.

That said, without having your card in hand, I'd give it a low grade but not a 10. It is miscut, with poor registration and a chipped lower left corner. There is paper loss on the back. I'm one of those people that thinks that paper loss - even on the back - even on a blank-backed card - should be dealt with harshly. Paper loss is paper loss, IMO. If I bought a card that was a 50 and it had paper loss on the back, I would be very unhappy.

That said, this is also one of those examples where the card is much, much nicer than the technical grade, and definitely one I'd be proud to have in my collection.

If the card was mine, I'd bring it with me to the National and ask why it as a 10. Perhaps they'd point out something I didn't see, and perhaps they'd say they made a mistake and it should be a 30, which is what it looks like to me.

Unlike a lot of people here, I'm willing to accept a certain degree of variance from a grading company. There are human beings grading the cards. They have bad days, they get headaches, they write down a wrong number, they misjudge things, they miss something someone else might have seen, they see something someone else might have missed, they misread a number, they judge something one way on Monday and ever-so-slightly differently on Tuesday. All in all, though, they do a fantastic job with an incredibly mundane, repetitive task. We should all do so well at our own repetitive tasks.

-Al

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Posted By: Tony Andrea

Leon ,
Just my opinion but I'd almost bet if you re-submitted that card today you would
get at least a 1/2 point bump in grade (20), and more than likely a full bump in
grade (30).
The longer bar code and gold stickered back is an older Sgc graded card. They have
softened up their criteria quite a bit on paper loss since, if the loss of paper is
as minimal as this. No way it gets a 40 though with that paper pull on the back.

Tony A.

ps - Beautiful card none the less.....

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Posted By: Fred C

Jim,

The definition of corrupt includes "lack of integrity". If definitions can be interpreted like cards (in grading) then I would guess that a lot of people would believe that PSA is corrupt.

A dealer telling me he could guarantee 8's doesn't prove PSA is corrput, but it sure didn't give me the feeling that "subjectivity" is the only ingredient/criteria in grading. It might even go towards confirming what the initial post was trying to point out.

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Posted By: Wesley

If the moderator of the Net54 cannot get the benefit of the doubt, what hope is there for the rest of us?

Leon's D303 should be at least SGC 30 and no one (aside from Al) would complain if the card was in a SGC 40 holder.

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Posted By: leon

Cool....I do think we can have a good debate. Here are a few more points.

1. I beg to differ about this being miscut. If it's miscut then I wish all of my cards were. It's not 50/50 but I doubt it would get an MC qualifier.

2. If you look at his name on the obverse you will see it's not perfectly regsitered in the scan. In real life it is. If you can sort of extrapolate that degree of "fuzziness" and take it out of the equation, you would see this card has very nice registration. It's hard to tell on the scan. I don't know how Tony An. does it (hi Tony) but he gets the best darn scans I have ever seen ....

3. The chip on the lower corner probably ranges all the way up to a 40 in critiquing, but if not that, then definitely within a 30's range, imo. I think I could show some 40's, pretty easily, that have this much corner wear.


Here's another question. This card could very well get a bump up in grade if resubmitted. If this were a 15k card would I have the same chance of getting it bumped up? take care and best regards (I still consider the SGC guys friends and great graders, btw)

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Posted By: Steve

Nevermind.

Steve

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Leon:

"Miscut" is probably not the right word for it, but it's definitely cut with a tilt.

Like I said, I wouldn't grade it a 10. I'd probably grade it a 30. Given that you're saying that the lower-left corner would bring it to a 40, I would say that the paper loss on the back (in one area it takes away some of the writing, in another area it removes a small piece of ink) would bring it down to a 30.

I'd like to think that any grading company would bump a deserving card regardless of the grade. Although I don't have any $15K cards, I do have experience getting bumps that increased a card's value significantly - here's one that was once a 7.

(Edited to add: Yes, Steve, that's what I was referring to about the registration - the actual print registration is off, which is something that SGC factors into the grade).





-Al

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Posted By: Steve

Al

I deleted what I said, I did not want to start anything.

Steve

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

just to unofftopic this thread so it can return to its genesis...

I think Marshall is generally correct. It may well matter a bit as to who submits a card as to what grade it would get.

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Posted By: leon

Al- that is a great card. From the scan it definiitely deserves an 88. Wowser!!

I think a 30 is warranted too but the card is in my collection so it's not a big deal. I was just mentioning it in the context of this thread and some other things going on.

Steve- I understand it's not the printing of the name that is in question pertaining to the registration being spoken about. I only mentioned it because the lettering, in real life, has perfect registration. In the scan it doesn't...so that is the degree of error, that needs to be taken into account, on the entire card. It's that much better in real life.
I do see the ink going across the border. My experience is they don't take off a lot for that on ex and below cards, depending on severity.....(re: many E90-1 Young- Boston's with hash marks on the front bottom and other off registration series of cards)