Mastro's Broad Leaf 460 back trimmed?

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Posted By: Millerhouse

I just had a chance to scan through Mastro's latest on-line catalog. Is there any chance in hell that Lot #1190, the T206 Broad Leaf 460 back of Elberfeld is not trimmed? I know it's been graded by PSA, but it's side borders would barely pass for borders on an American Beauty back. Even top to bottom it looks small, with almost no border beneath the caption.

Bottom line, in my opinion, buy the card, not the holder. This one is just too obvious to be believed -- a trend I find more and more in PSA graded T206s these days.

Dan

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Posted By: Steve M.

http://www.mastronet.com/index.cfm?action=DisplayContent&ContentName=Lot%20Information&LotIndex=63761&CurrentRow=21

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Posted By: John S

It is always difficult to tell without seeing the card in person. From the scan I would have to agree. The right border and bottom right corner look especially suspect.

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

with all that gunk on the slab too? Come on.....take a little lighter fluid and get all that off........

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Posted By: Cobby33

Any bets on what this will close for?

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Posted By: leon

$4398.71

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Posted By: MVSNYC

$6-7K

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Posted By: Cobby33

Leon-
If you nail that to the nearest dollar- I'll buy you 12 beers!

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Posted By: leon

If I don't then I will buy you beers whenever we meet

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

First off to answer the post about the card being trimmed...

Impossible, PSA has given it a PSA6 designation therefore it CANNOT be trimmed! I wish I knew how to post a laughing smiley face... (your welcome)

Someone had mentioned using lighter fluid to remove the gunk from the card holder. Is it my imagination or does there appear to be an imprint of a former price tag that indicates a $12K price tag?

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Posted By: Josh Adams

I've got a somewhat silly question.

How can someone tell from a computer scan that a card has been trimmed? I would think that in order to give an accurate opinion, you would need to examine the card in person?

Go Go White Sox
2005 World Series Champions!

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Posted By: MVSNYC

yes, it does look "slim", but until one has it in their hands and under a 10x loop...it is tuff to say...i have owned many T206 cards over the years, and no two cards have the same shape/dimensions...remember guys, they were hand-cut and border sizes vary.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Josh,

The question isn't silly at all. I'm sure that there are quite a few people that post here that have seen hundreds, even thousands of these cards and the appearance of a trimmed card may be questioned because of the size of the card in proportion to the holder, or the size of the borders in proportion to the card in general or even the cut of the cards or by seeing something that just looks wrong with the corners.

Look no further than the Harris collection of cards graded by PSA. Rather than rehash what's been beaten into the ground I'll just leave it at this: Grading companies are not infallible and some have reportedly even encapsulated altered cards... hard to believe, isn't it...

Leon - thanks for the smiley face but I was looking for a smiley face that was busting a gut, rolling on the floor laughing...

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Posted By: MVSNYC

judge, i'm new to the board...can you explain the T206 Harris issue, or post a link where i can read more about it, please?

thanks.

Michael

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Please email me and I'll email you a response. I don't want to hijack this thread. I'm still curious if anyone else sees the remnant of $12K price tag... maybe I'm seeing things and should go look at my toast to see if I can see the Virgin Mary...

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Posted By: Steve M.

$12K. Its there plain as day.

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Posted By: Sean

On the back of the card I can see the $12K left over residue from the sticker and even a faint virgin mary...hello Goldenpalace.com!



About the trimming...I would agree you would really have to see the card but that card has some very small boarders all around. If I had $12,000 I would save it.

My guess - $6,923

Sean BH

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Posted By: MVSNYC

email sent...

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

price tag. Subliminal message for those with deep pockets out there. With juice, I think $8842. Can I win both showcases if I'm within $50?

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Posted By: Judd Hamlin

The left edge of the card looks like it has been trimmed, but we all know that PSA doesn't make errors, right? My favorite(lately) was the e90-3 Walsh that they called an e90-1 (on gfg.com). But that will not stop the bidding (6460.00 + fees).

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Posted By: Millerhouse

Dear MVSNYC,

In my thirty-five years of experience pursuing these, no unaltered T206s have side borders this thin unless they have American Beauty backs. Yes, quality control was poor for these and other early sets and there was certainly some variation in sizes. But, until trimming became popular, one never saw T206s this narrow without an AB back.

One with experience needs neither to see it in person nor through a loop. This one is just ridiculously narrow.

Dear Bill Mastro,

Do you follow the board? You've been doing this as long as I; tell me I'm wrong.

Dan

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Posted By: MVSNYC

how can you guys look athat low-res image, and say, "the left edge looks trimmed"...how is that possible, what do you see? please help me understand...i get the fact that the card look slim, but how can one pick a right side over a left side, and say, the edge looks trimmed?

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Posted By: MVSNYC

point well taken, i have been collecting T206's for only 15 years, it does look slim, i agree, But, my last question is a sincere one, not sarcastic...how does one look at an image and determine which side was trimmed..a sincere question, this will actually help me identify similiar cards in future...

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Posted By: Millerhouse

Dear MVSNYC,

I'm not saying anything about the appearance of the left or right borders beyond the fact that there is simply too little of them. I've sifted through thousands of T206s through the years that have been found in the wild. They are simply never this small -- unless AB backs.

Indeed, I never cease to be amazed at how the average size of the T206 in PSA holders seems to be shrinking. Wonder why?

Dan

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Posted By: MVSNYC

agreed looks thin, we'll see how she does at auction...

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Posted By: dan mckee

Card is blatantly trimmed. The fact that it is in a PSA holder is not a shock. Depends on who submitted it. If Mastronet submitted it and said they needed it graded, what would you do? Obviously a bulk of PSA's money comes from the auction houses, you keep them happy. So the only idiots are the ones buying the graded cards. Sorry, I had to do that.

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Posted By: Rob

While people are arguing about whether this card has been trimmed(heck, it's obviously trimmed), why don't people take PSA & SGC ect to task for not fully labelling this card? Is it too much effort for PSA to put Broad Leaf 460 on the label?

And SGC is little better, as they will only put on the label Broad Leaf, not distinguishing between the 350 and the rare 460 back.

Coin collectors expect and get the mint mark, type, ect on the label of their graded coin, seems like early tobacco baseball cards deserve tthe same consideration. Likewise, if stamps are graded and labelled, you'd get the Scott's #, not a "1910 George Washington 2 cent stamp" for the description, as this would failing to distinguish between imperforate, coils, perforation size, shades ect of the stamp being graded.

BTW, the SGC population report is worthless for players with more than one card in the T206 set. For example, all you can tell from the SGC population report is that they've graded 370 Frank Chance cards. What's up with that? There's 3 different Frank Chance cards.

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Posted By: dan mckee

WELL PUT BOB, POINT IS WELL TAKEN DAN

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

This card is clearly trimmed.

My own kids don't wave at me more than that when I get home from work.

My own dog's ears don't stick up like that.

My own wife isn't as slim on the sides.

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Posted By: barry arnold

Hal,
be sure to show your wife what you wrote about her!

she'll love you for it.

best,

barry

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Posted By: glyn parson

"Grading companies are not infallible and some have reportedly even encapsulated altered cards."

Some??? they all have graded altered cards though i honestly think the big 3 dont intentionally grade bad stuff.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

wasn't it listed with measurements 1/8" too small and sold for around $1200? That's what I heard...

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Posted By: Cobby33

"So the only idiots are the ones buying the graded cards."

Huh???

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Posted By: warshawlaw

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330004260955>

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Posted By: leon

This is the kind of thing that makes me not like grading. Maybe they thought it was miscut or just missed it altogether? We all know they all make mistakes....they are human. Some just make more than others. Buy the card not the holder....(yawn)

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Posted By: Millerhouse

Whether a "mistake" by the grading company or not, I've known Bill Mastro for thirty years and believe that he knows enough about cards and has more than enough integrity to come forward and refuse to sell the card, graded or not, as anything other than trimmed. To simply put it up for sale as a PSA 6 card (without warning the unwary of the obvious) is reminiscent of the fake Wagner auctioneer in the strip mall in Binghamton. Bill is better than that.

Dan

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

I agree 100% about Bill and everyone at Mastro.

If the card was sold on Ebay as trimmed (or undersized)...

then they will acknowledge it with an edit to the listing.

They probably just have so many items that they haven't yet had time to really examine every little thing when a GRADED card is presented to them.


In fact... that's what THIS BOARD is pretty much here for.


We examine, we give opinions... and people take note.

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Posted By: barrysloate

So what do you think- will they acknowledge the error?

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

I think so.

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Posted By: leon

As always Mastro has done the right thing, imo. The description has been amended and the card is still great looking....This board has it's ways....Sometimes it pains me (the board, that is) but in the long run it's a good thing.....

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Posted By: barrysloate

No question they were professional enough to listen to the net54 group. I'm impressed on both ends, ours and theirs.

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Posted By: S. Gross

Man ........ for a bunch of "old, fat, bald, white, smelly, tee-shirt wearing losers" this board is pretty impressive ...........

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Posted By: davidcycleback

In the Mastro auction, I noticed the Pope Bennedict autographed baseball with a signed LOA
from a Cardinal. Some might consider it a sin for the winner to solicit a second opinion
from PSA/DNA or JSA.

(p.s., this post isn't questioning the authenticity of the autograph, and I know
that the Cardinal who wrote the LOA is very prominant and powerful in the
church, and knows the Pope personally)

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Posted By: Seth B.

An honest job on Bill Mastro's part, but I am absolutely done with PSA. I have bought cards in PSA 4 or 5 holders that arrive and appear blatantly trimmed. I've had cards in PSA holders that SGC won't crack out because they feel they're trimmed. They simply are not quality control with vintage cards anymore. I'm done, I'm fed up. They may have a good service with later cards, but this T206 is trimmed on all four sides. If Joe Orlando doesn't make amends with this one, shame on him.

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Posted By: Steve M.

I am not fat!!!

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Posted By: Millerhouse

Good job, Mastro and company.

Dan

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Posted By: quan

if it's the same card as from adam's ebay link...interesting it went from VG+ to EX with "corner rounding" to 4 EXMT corners. Original seller did state the card measured 1 3/8 x 2 5/8.

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Posted By: Todd

Seth makes a good point -- it's not just high grade hijinx when it comes to trimmed cards being slabbed with grades and it's not just the "big fish" which are directly affected by these shenanigans. A lot of them reside in mid-grade holders as well and many of us have ended up with them in our collections.

I personally have no problem buying a trimmed card every now and then as long as it's in an appropriately marked "Authentic" slab (and the price is commensurate). It's using my meager resources to purchase a card in a 4 or 5 holder that I find to be trimmed that has caused me to become greatly disillusioned (with PSA in particular).

I guess a lot of folks don't give a rat's rear end if it's been trimmed as long as it's got the coveted grade emblazoned on it but we all stand to lose in the long run if things don't change.

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Posted By: ScottIngold

Speakiing of trimmed mid grade cards... I had a bunch of T's come back from GAI timmed over the past 2 years or so. 2 or 3 were obvious.

Well i decided to send them into PSA with some other's i planned on selling. These were cards in GAI holders, We all know PSA get better price's, right ?
So low and behold....grades come back. Every card went up by either a 1/2 grade or 1 full grade. And the trimmed cards were holdered with grades as well.

Out of 5 graded GAI's all got bumps and 5 trimmed GAI's 3 were graded. Again at least 2 were obvious.

Don't know what this really tells us but it is interesting.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

the lot has been withdrawn.