Honus Wagner cut

[w7imel]

Any thoughts on this recent auction sale as well? Either not authentic or someone got a great deal. 1944 is date on item.

Mike

[Lordstan]

While every once in a while you get a great deal, my axiom is if it's too good to be true, it probably is not true.
Looks very slow and deliberate.

[Runscott]

I, on the other hand, think it looks like his signature, but there is something funny about it - like it is stamped.

[btcarfagno]

Looks like a stamp to me.

Tom C

[Lordstan]

Don't get me wrong, I do think it looks very much like his sig, but there is something that looks weird. That slow deliberate appearance could definitely be there if it were a stamp.

[w7imel]

I can see that now, looks like a stamp to me as well the more I look at it. No ink flow. IMO. Again nowhere near being an expert just enjoy the hobby and learning.

[Bpm0014]

I'm no expert whatsoever, but I have a 1918 Wagner signature on a check. His signature changed a lot throughout the years. And that is NOT a 1944 signature. I could be totally wrong but just my two cents. That looks like a 1918 signature.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Bpm0014

I'm no expert whatsoever, but I have a 1918 Wagner signature on a check. His signature changed a lot throughout the years. And that is NOT a 1944 signature. I could be totally wrong but just my two cents. That looks like a 1918 signature.

That's very interesting. I once owned a Wagner Christmas card to another player, that had a very ornate signature like this one. I was surprised that it wasn't all crooked like his normal 1940's signatures. But I don't remember thinking that it looked like a stamp - I'll try to find the scan.

[jbhofmann]

I don't see any overlapping of ink.

[Ladder7]

There's an overlap at the H

[Klrdds]

Just random thoughts on this:
1. Do we have knowledge of Wagner using a stamp at any time?
2. Does this look like a signature generated when Wagner was 70 years old ?
3. If this is a stamp why would this item be stamped and not signed if it is a receipt? If presented to him in person why stamp it? If this is a forged signature with a stamp the forger went to a lot of trouble to have a stamp made , and for what purpose other than to create more forgeries, yet I can find no mention anywhere dealing with Wagner forgeries being a stamped type of forgery.
4. There are areas of variable ink density, as well as area of starts and stops of ink on some of the letters on the signature. Also areas of overlap seem to be present on the signature.
5. I do not know Wagner's signature well enough to authenticate or offer an opinion. I know his variations and certainly this seems to follow a variation pattern.
Maybe this guy got a good deal and that is the truth of it, or maybe he got a stamp . I believe without seeing the piece in person and examining in person and up close this could be a hard one to decide on in my opinion.

[drcy]

I'm not a signature expert but am a prints historian and it is a stamp. Stamps have a tell tale dark edge/rim around the edges of the printed graphics because the pressure of the stamp against the paper presses the excess ink to the edges. You can see the thin, uniform rim around in the image. Real handwriting can of course produce different levels of ink at different places including occasional dark edges, but the rim here is uniform an in many of the areas here where handwriting would overlap the rim only follows along the outside-- as with a rubber stamp.

I was an art historian for a British academic encyclopedia and am the author of the encyclopedia's entry on that form of printing.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by drcy

I'm not a signature expert but am a prints historian and it is a stamp. Stamps have a tell tale dark edge/rim around the edges of the printed graphics because the pressure of the stamp against the paper presses the excess ink to the edges. You can see the thin, uniform rim around in the image. Real handwriting can of course produce different levels of ink at different places including occasional dark edges, but the rim here is uniform an in many of the areas here where handwriting would overlap the rim only follows along the outside-- as with a rubber stamp.

I was an art historian for a British academic encyclopedia and am the author of the encyclopedia's entry on that form of printing.

In summary......


















































It's a stamp.

Tom C

[Runscott]

I'm glad you all agreed with me - you all get A's.

I feel confident about assigning your grades, mainly because I tried to stay in a Holiday Inn Express once. I was there with an Art Historian who allowed me to handle the check-in alone, as he wanted me to see how it felt to be an Art Historian. I failed to get a room. But thanks David, for letting me try.

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by drcy

I was an art historian for a British academic encyclopedia and am the author of the encyclopedia's entry on that form of printing.

And my dad can beat up your dad.

Sorry David. I could not resist. I enjoyed our conversations about photography at The National. I have sniffed most of my new acquisitions since then.

[drcy]

I didn't realize that last sentence would cause such an uproar. I take it back.

To be honest, as I'm not a regular autograph section poster, I figured many of the autograph folks here didn't know who I was so was just pointing out that identifying printing processes is my area. As I am no autograph expert, I almost never get to point out a fake in this section. If it was real handwriting and not a stamp, I would have had no opinion on the authenticity.

[Michael B]

David,

No uproar. Just having a bit of fun. It wasn't pretentious or anything like that. I think it is good that you dropped in some qualifying information. As you stated, you do not post on the autograph side so many may not know your multiple fields of expertise. Many of the members have knowledge or qualifications that are not evident unless they state them. We are all a voice in this world.

[drcy]

Don't worry, I took the posts as in jest.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by drcy

Don't worry, I took the posts as in jest.

My post was serious - did I imagine all that?

Have you already forgotten Toledo and it's poisonous water?

[prewarsports]

I don't think its a stamp personally, but just a forgery made to look real by putting it on the bottom of a worthless receipt. There are spots where the ink has pooled and settled around the edges and no spotting from the stamper. Just my opinion.