Guys, i need your help. Can this be a PSA 3??......UPDATE

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Posted By: JB

The pics are not to good (last is the best), however the card has an indentation on his left forearm, 2 surface wrinkles and obviously rounded (worn) corners. Can a card with these defects grade out a 3?? Looks more like a 2 to me.........All opinions are welcomed and expected.







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Posted By: Matt

You may be asking two questions here; if you're asking is it possible that PSA gave this card a 3 (vs. did someone slide in another card) then the answer is yes - PSA could have given that card a 3. If you're asking would most on the board give the card a 3 grade, then it's hard to tell from the images; just the corner wear alone is within 3 range, but not sure about surface issues.

My Trade/Sale Page

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Posted By: Bob

JB- I'd say to the naked eye it looks like a 2 at best.
tbob

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Posted By: Steve

2 , 3 I can see either for that card.

Hi end 2

Low end 3


splitting hairs?

Bottom line is what is it priced at?

Steve

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Posted By: quan

based on the Quan Grading Scale (QGS), with the heavy indentation on top of the wrinkles and worn corner...that's a 1 or maybe 1.5 if the sun is shining when i wake up.

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Posted By: JB

I paid $200 dlvd................

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Posted By: fkw

looks like a large (closed) hole (or dent) on bottom right (on front)

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Posted By: Douglas

The price issue is strictly a personal choice, as to whether you think it is worth it or not. I personally would pass on it at $200 with the "indent". I think that marking should effect it a fair amount both in monetary value and personal looks preference. But, this is just my thought. If you feel $200 is fair, and are pleased with the card, then there should be no question.

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Posted By: JB

Did not see it in the scan presented, nor did seller disclose it.

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Posted By: Douglas

Well the seller certainly didn't give much of a description did he. If you are not happy I would contact the seller about it.

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Posted By: Tim

Here's a scan of my PSA 2.5 I purchased on eBay recently. It was originally in a SGC 40(3) holder. I thought it would crossover as a PSA 3 due to its overall centering and nice registration. But, PSA didn't agree, and returned it as a PSA 2.5. The surface crease in the upper left is its only glaring flaw. The card is nicer looking than most, for the grade...that's for sure. I paid $223. I hope this helps you out a little bit. Tim.

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Posted By: Ricky Y

Based on Tim's card...I would rate the first one a 2 or 1.5.

Ricky Y

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Posted By: Martin Neal

Tim, did you crack it out or send it in in the holder? Looks like a 3 to me.

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Posted By: Tim

Yes, I cracked it out. I was disappointed it was returned a PSA 2.5. I thought it appeared to be at least a PSA 3. It's really a beautiful card.

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Posted By: Marty Ogelvie

The 2.5 has more eye appeal to me than the 3 but of course the 3 is a poor resolution scan.

Geez Tim, you could have spooned the surface wrinkle out and gotten a 4 or 5!!!

jk

still a great looking card!

Marty

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Posted By: Tim

Yeah, Marty.......it sure looks better than a 2.5 to me. I was hoping PSA would agree. The registration and centering are exemplary. Without that little wrinkle it's probably a PSA 5. I still like it, though.....haven't seen too many with the clarity and vibrant color of this one. I guess that's why I bought it....deserves better, though, IMHO.

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Posted By: Anonymous

Given the pochmark, it's a 1.

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Posted By: JB

I emailed the seller....no refunds of course, i have already filed a claim with paypal and talked to my CC company. Obviously, had i seen the indentation i would have passed. It's in the hands of PP now. Very nice 2.5+..............

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Posted By: JB

Actual auction photo.............

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Posted By: Tim

Good luck JB............Tim.

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Posted By: JB

Dispute is still being reviewed.....geez how long does it really take? The sellers response is basically too bad, i don't take returns or do refunds. Neither of which is stated in his auction (i would have passed , based on principle alone). Just thought i would update as to the tremendous service Paypal continually provides. "(

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Posted By: JohnnyH

Your review could take 3-4 weeks or longer. Since he didn't state no returns you should get your money back. After going through this same thing a couple times I am very hesitant of dealing with people who DONT TAKE RETURNS BECAUSE IT IS GRADED. Just because it is graded shouldn't give the seller an excuse not to take a card a buyer is not happy with back. I never seem to have problems with sellers who offer a refund but those who don't seem to have the passed around overgraded problem cards by graders who are blind or didn't look at the back of a card. I have been tempted to leave a 'negative' feedback when seller refused to take back a card but didn't because they did state 'no returns' and I was at fault for trusting a grading company and thinking a seller would stand by their product.

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Posted By: Steve

While sellers do not want to be an approval service

if a customer has a legit beef they should cheerfully

take back the card. I know I do.



The problem is not with paypal but with this seller.





Steve

edited to add: Has the seller been outed yet?

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Posted By: JB

True.........however, seems cut and dry to me.

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Posted By: JB

No the seller has not been outed.....i dont believe it's anyone here. Hey , just got an email from PP stating if i provide tracking with my return of item i am "eligible for a refund". That sounds promising.

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Posted By: jb

Update to situation.....Ppal refunded my money today,card returned and signed for. I had to call ppal and tell them to check the online tracking for verification, but they did and refunded my cash right then.
Thirty days from transaction beginning to end. Now the fun part..........Ebay feedback, hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

jb

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

You are buying a graded card with the expectations that you trust the grading company with the grade applied. The problem you have is with the grading company you put faith in and not the seller. It is very seldom anyone selling graded cards puts a description of the card, that is why a grade is applied. If you have questions and concerns they should be asked before you bid.

Yes, it does suck that the grade does not meet expected standards but would you give the seller a refund if you received a card from him, sent it in for a regrade and it got a bump, we all know that answer is no.

I think we have all had a transaction that needs to be chalked up as a learning experience and this to me is one of those situation.

Good Luck with your collecting and hope your future transactions are not like this one.

Lee

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Posted By: Eric B

Lee is correct. You purchased a card based on the slab, but then disagreed with the number on the slab. Original pictures showed an obvious dent. Not the seller's fault.

PSA failed.

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Posted By: marshall barkman

If everyone on the board would have said the card is a 3 then there would not have been any return of the card. I don't see where the seller did anything wrong because he did not mislead you with the auction. What you should have done is contacted PSA and i think a solution could have been worked out with the card. The dealer does not deserve a negative just because he did not give a refund.

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Posted By: steve yawitz

Is it just me, or is PayPal's response a bit chilling? I'm hardly absolving the seller here, but there's no way an eBay subsidiary should intercede in what is ultimately a dispute over the grade assigned by a third-party authenticator.

http://imageevent.com/yawie99

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Caveat slablover

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Posted By: leon

I am with you. I don't think Paypal should have been involved in this. As a matter of fact Ebay says they won't get involved in a dispute when the card is graded by SGC, PSA, or Beckett (not sure about GAI). At least that is my understanding. regards

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Posted By: marshall barkman

I agree with you Steve. If you buy a 1884 CC silver dollar in a PCGS MS-63 holder then that is what you get. I don't think you can claim the coin was not graded correctly once you recieve it and then get a refund. I buy cards all the time and in every grade there are true examples of the grade and then there are always borderline ones. I do not agree with the buyer at all in this case. Now the dealer has a card that is talked about and run down plus he has to take the time to deal with the whole situation. If i am uncertain about a card i always e-mail the seller in regards to the condition before bidding. Case in point there was a recent 1952 Willie Mays PSA 4 that looked like a 6 or 7 for 750.00 or best offer, i knew there must be some blemish or something on the card that you cannot see because of the holder, when i e-mailed the guy about condition he stated he felt the card was a 6 to a 8. Now why on earth wouldn't he just re-submit the card?

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Posted By: Steve

Marshall

The Mays you are referring to had a stain on the front of the card

that could barely be seen in the scan. It also had wax on the reverse.


It was a nice looking 4, better then some 5's for that matter.


The buyer here is not at fault IMO, the seller is. Not everyone

sees a card the same way from a scan. Yes the buyer should ask questions.

Does not mean the seller will be forthcoming. Did the seller of the Mays

inform Marshall about the stain?

I would not leave any feedback nor would I hurt the seller's DSR's either.


Steve

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Posted By: marshall barkman

Steve....i saw the stain and when i asked about it he said it was not stained. Also the guy mentioned nothing about the wax on the reverse when i asked. It is a tough call but when it comes to E-bay i see two types of sellers. 1-The seller is very descriptive about the card and what he feels in regards to the grade. 2-The seller shows a scan of the card and then states nothing about it becaus it is already graded.

What is interesting about the two sellers is seller 1 generally overhypes the card hoping you may chase a grade bump and seller 2 is to busy to bother explaining the card which is very suspicious so just ask questions.

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Posted By: marshall barkman

I understand your point Steve and if i were the seller of the item i would just give the guy a refund and offer it to the under-bidder. Also i would block the guy from further bidding on my auctions.

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Posted By: JB

Guys...please read the thread again.....you have missed the point. The grade here is irrelevant. I buy the card , not the slab. Without the dent (not visible on original scan)i would have bought this card whatever grade was assigned, or raw because i liked its eye appeal and centering. The point here is the seller tried to hide an obvious issue with the card, the issue is not about the grade........it is the damage to the front and back of the card that does not meet my standards. Maybe the title should have been written differently to avoid confusion. I am sure next time you get a card that you THOUGHT met your standards,but has unknown issues you will just "chalk it up".

If the seller does not do returns or refunds, he should state so.......not after the auction ends.
JB

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Posted By: marshall barkman

Jb.... you stated "Guys...please read the thread again.....you have missed the point. The grade here is irrelevant. I buy the card , not the slab.











Why are you buying graded cards then? Graded cards always sell around whatever the last card sold for in the grade. Your real issue should be with PSA for putting that card in a 3 holder. The dealer just posted the card for sale and folks bid according to the grade.



Do you have the auction thread from E-bay? Was there a back photo of the card in the listing? I cannot find the item in completed listings.

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Posted By: Steve

I sure as hell did not miss the point.

If anything I agree with your point.


Not sure if you were implying me as one of the 'guys'


Steve

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

I am totally with Marshall, with your quote:

Guys...please read the thread again.....you have missed the point. The grade here is irrelevant. I buy the card , not the slab.

It makes no sense why you are buying graded cards. If you have a criteria than you need to ask before bidding. Low grade cards can have many defects that would cause it to fall into a lower grade, if some bother you more than others you need to ask before bidding.

I read your thread exactly the way you meant it and my earlier statement still stands, you need to take this up with PSA not the seller.

Talk to any OJ collector and they will tell you they want a strong picture overall the technical grade but the graders do not factor in the clarity of the picture in the grade assigned. I am sure than are more than happy when buying a lower grade with a great picture. There is 2 sides to every issue you just happen to be on the bad side of this professional grading issue.

Lee

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Posted By: JB

Lee, original pic below, i did ask questions and got no response. Red flag, maybe, not at the time. The last photo is the original auction photo..... looks good huh?? The ones on the countertop are mine. No obviously there was no back pic, or i would have easily passed. Look at the pic i posted...............I buy graded for authenticity and protection. The grade is not the be all, end all. I would much rather have a dent free PSA 2 than an indented PSA 3. Steve, i didn't mean you, just the last couple of posters.






Actual auction photo

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Posted By: marshall barkman

Steve...i think you did not realize that i posted his statement in my post. The reference to you guys is what he was implying.

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Posted By: marshall barkman

JB...i am sure you are a good guy. My question is why would you bid on a card when the seller would not return any questions? Also where is the completed transaction in regards to this card? I checked completed listings and found nothing in regards to this card. Personally i would not buy any card in a 2 or 3 holder because the grades are way off sometimes. Look at some of the cards posted on here in those holders. I feel the grading companies take more time grading cards that are between 5 and 9 than they do the lesser graded stuff. I also know JB that if you sent that card into PSA that they would regrade the card a lesser grade and somehow make the difference up to you.

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Posted By: Steve F

The card was simply misgraded, as stressed above.

Listen to your little man... Does he really tell you to neg the seller? I mean, it wasn't a counterfeit/switcheroo. There are far too many others more deserving of a slap.

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Posted By: marshall barkman

I understand with all the trimming and alterations why you buy graded JB. At least you got your money back but i do not think the dealer deserves a negative. If you plan to play in the graded 2 to 3 market then get prepared for some major let downs because i feel that is where the grading companies make most of their mistakes.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Did you get your money back? Then why neg him?? Learn and move on.


Having reread a bit, why does your heading say "Can this be a PSA 3??" if the grade doesn't matter?

I'm all about buying the card, and I don't have complete faith in the card grading services. I think they screw up more than I do with card identification and authentication. They do it a lot more, I'll give 'em that. And more folks have faith in what they think than what I think, as evidenced by the folks who pay 'em.

I think the lesson to be learned here is to make sure you get a refund policy set out, or ask for better scans. I asked for the scan of a Sky Bird back last night... it was a slabbed card, but PSA hadn't put enough card info on the slip, in my estimation.

I do think that just because a seller says 'no returns on graded cards' doesn't mean that is absolutely and totally enforceable, there could be situations where the seller's misidentified the card that would negate that.

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Posted By: steve yawitz

As others have suggested, JB, the lesson here is to view third-party grades with a slightly jaundiced eye. Quite honestly, there's no way I would have bid on that card with just that scan. It's neither large nor clear enough for my liking. Add the lack of back scan and a non-response to your question to the mix and you should be thanking your lucky stars that this situation ended satisfactorily for you. Again, I certainly do not condone the seller's approach to this listing, but unless he or she made patently untrue claims about the card - and simply stating that it was graded VG 3 by PSA would not fit that bill - he or she should not have lost this PayPal dispute.

http://imageevent.com/yawie99

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Posted By: JB

" Did you get your money back? Then why neg him?? Learn and move on. " Frank, yes i got my money back after 30 days and paypal deciding in my favor. Not through the seller's kind heart, or smart business acumen.

I already left feedback this morning, I didn't leave a negative, however i did leave a neutral. Why? well feedback is about the overall transaction, right? Yes the seller shipped the card, but no i was not happy with his lack of policy regarding returns or refunds. Also, the fact he was not willing to work it out (customer service) w/o paypal settling things also left a bad taste in my mouth. As far as i am concerned the experience was bad and could be seen as negative by many. The auction is over 30 days old, that may be why you cant find it. By the way, the seller still hasn't updated his return policy.........the Lajoie will be be back up on Ebay soon to disappoint someone else.

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Posted By: Steve

A neutral is probably what I would have given him too.

Nothing positive about that transaction.

Sellers should not hide behind a TPG.


If a graded card has a problem it should be noted

in the description. Not all cards of a similar grade

are equal. That can be said of every grade too.


Steve