Why did this card sell for so much last night

[rocarroll]

This T 206 Harry Steinfeldt with Sweet Cap 350-460 fact 30 back sold for $255.00 last night on Ebay. What is the rarity of this particular card?


http://www.ebay.com/itm/T206-1909-Ha...vip=true&rt=nc

[Leon]

The second underbidder put in a lot of bids. I don't do T206 too much but this might be a tough front back combo...

[bn2cardz]

It is listed as a "probable no print" by t206 resource.

http://www.t206resource.com/Sweet%20...Checklist.html

http://www.t206resource.com/Checklis...cordPosition=2

[rocarroll]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

It is listed as a "probable no print" by t206 resource.

http://www.t206resource.com/Sweet%20...Checklist.html

Per this "probable no print" designation Does that mean that this was a previously unknown card ? Looks like it says it doesn't exist with Sweet Cap 460 fact 30 on the second link you posted. I guess bottom line is this front back is super rare then.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by rocarroll

Per this "probable no print" designation Does that mean that this was a previously unknown card ? Looks like it says it doesn't exist with Sweet Cap 460 fact 30 on the second link you posted.

Correct, this front/back combo had not been cataloged. Without the high price it wouldn't have stood out to me to have known that, but some people know the set so well they catch those type of things right away and that is what drove that price up.

[JustinD]

...Or maybe they realllly wanted the stray hair that the seller enclosed in the sleeve for cloning purposes?

[rocarroll]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

Correct, this front/back combo had not been cataloged. Without the high price it wouldn't have stood out to me to have known that, but some people know the set so well they catch those type of things right away and that is what drove that price up.

I sent this sale over to t206 resource site. They emailed me back and said this seller had sold several of these backs. This back was never a factory issue. They believe it to be hand cut from a scrap sheet that was never released. Said they are familiar with this particular persons sale if these backs and that is what their research points to. Interesting

[Luke]

Here's a previous thread about the cards/seller:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=208327

[rocarroll]

Originally Posted by LukeLyon

Here's a previous thread about the cards/seller:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=208327

Cool thanks for that thread. I actually won a card from this guy last night it was a raw EPDG. It looks very good so hoping it isn't trimmed. If not I may have gotten a winner.

[Luke]

The Schlei? I don't think it is trimmed. Super nice card.

[rocarroll]

Originally Posted by LukeLyon

The Schlei? I don't think it is trimmed. Super nice card.

That's the one. Looks like an SGC 50 to me if not altered.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by rocarroll

This T 206 Harry Steinfeldt with Sweet Cap 350-460 fact 30 back sold for $255.00 last night on Ebay. What is the rarity of this particular card?


http://www.ebay.com/itm/T206-1909-Ha...vip=true&rt=nc

Referencing my tracker that card has not been confirmed to exist.

[mullinsm]

I was watching this one, not realizing what it was, only that I needed it for my set, and was blown away when the price jumped from a reasonable $20 to over $200.

Thank you for starting this thread - I learned something new!

[rocarroll]

Originally Posted by mullinsm

I was watching this one, not realizing what it was, only that I needed it for my set, and was blown away when the price jumped from a reasonable $20 to over $200.

Thank you for starting this thread - I learned something new!

I did as well. Had no clue. I have no interest in the rarer series/factory numbers on these normally common backs but apparently a lot of others do. At that price I'd rather have a Hindu back.

[Thromdog]

The Cobb was also unknown I believe.

Item 361364079253.....went for over 2500$

[sreader3]

Almost certainly, Steinfeldt was part of a sheet on which all cards were meant to receive a Factory 42 overstrike. The sheet was discarded for some reason prior to being overstricken. The card was later hand-cut from a sheet. In other words, it is almost certainly scrap--never inserted into a pack.

Still a great card.

[tonyo]

So help me out here......these cards exist, but since they were not distributed in packs, they aren't considered "confirmed"?

Am I reading that correctly?

[mrvster]

100 % correct!!!!

problem is, hard to notice as scrap because the person hand cutting them from the sheet did an OUTSTANDING job when cutting them from the sheet..they look extremely close to the factory dimensions..to the "un trained eye" they almost appear "factory cut"...\


I personally prefer my scrap with wild , hand cut borders, but in the case of these cards, I think I would take anyone of them!!!

great "spotting"

this is an example of gems being hidden then "found" in the "wild bush" of ebay

[Mountaineer1999]

Originally Posted by mrvster

100 % correct!!!!

problem is, hard to notice as scrap because the person hand cutting them from the sheet did an OUTSTANDING job when cutting them from the sheet..they look extremely close to the factory dimensions..to the "un trained eye" they almost appear "factory cut"...\


I personally prefer my scrap with wild , hand cut borders, but in the case of these cards, I think I would take anyone of them!!!

great "spotting"

this is an example of gems being hidden then "found" in the "wild bush" of ebay

Maybe they were actually factory cut, then the cutter/shipper/packer/ guy in charge or whoever knew the cards couldn't be distributed so he took them home?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Thromdog

The Cobb was also unknown I believe.

Item 361364079253.....went for over 2500$

The last 2 bidders were probably thinking they were about to get a really great deal...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/T206-1909-Ty...p2047675.l2557

.

[NonSportDaniel]

I don't collect this set but I must say that I find this thread fascinating. How cool would it be to have a card from this scrap sheet?

[Jeffrompa]

I would have bid $200 if I saw it but I have been a bit brain dead lately . More than usual .

[t206fix]

Another go around of these cards just went through tonight. I noticed that there have been many duplicates of the same player with a supposed no print for the f30. I contacted the seller on ebay. He said that he was selling them for somebody else and did know that they were hand cut.

So in theory, these cards could be like a big puzzle that needs to be put back together again so that we can see what full sheet looks like. So far, I've downloaded all the scans of his cards. I have not been able to match up any cards side by side, yet, but honestly, I've only spent a few hours looking at them. Here are some things I noticed...

Manning with pencil marks
McQuillen with pencil marks
Wagner with pencil marks

[t206fix]

Although Chance is confirmed with the f30 back, he could have been a part of this sheet (along with a lot of other cards this seller is offering) that was also supposed to get the f30 overprint. If a part of this sheet, these would also be important pieces of the puzzle (and in theory, also scrap, right Johnny)

These two Chance cards that he sold seem to have a top and bottom that match.

[t206fix]

He has sold three Pfeister cards. One Pfeister also has a pencil mark on both sides. Also, all three cards have the same printer offsets as shown below.

[Luke]

Nice work Tony! I think it's safe to say that all of these cards came from the same sheet.

[t206fix]

Thanks Luke.

I've downloaded all the pictures from his sales of SC460 f30s. If anyone wants a copy of all my scans, I can send the file to them. If anyone wants to try to make sense of the "puzzle", please try. The more the better.

Is it possible to piece back together a sheet? I'm not sure. But I think that it would be fun project to try. Also, it could possibly show how many of each were on a sheet and how many cards total on a sheet.

[atx840]

I think I'll throw up if the consigner recently cut the sheet up.

Great work, most definitely they came from an unfinished sheet.

[xplainer]

Judging from most his pictures, I think he scans in the nude.

[rocarroll]

TMI man TMI

QUOTE=xplainer;1452441]Judging from most his pictures, I think he scans in the nude.[/QUOTE]

[Gradedcardman]

Originally Posted by mrvster

100 % correct!!!!

problem is, hard to notice as scrap because the person hand cutting them from the sheet did an OUTSTANDING job when cutting them from the sheet..they look extremely close to the factory dimensions..to the "un trained eye" they almost appear "factory cut"...\


I personally prefer my scrap with wild , hand cut borders, but in the case of these cards, I think I would take anyone of them!!!

great "spotting"

this is an example of gems being hidden then "found" in the "wild bush" of ebay

You said BUSH

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by Gradedcardman

You said BUSH

Heh.

Tom C

[xplainer]

Originally Posted by Gradedcardman

You said BUSH

Haha!

Yes he did.

[JeremyW]

Originally Posted by t206fix

Thanks Luke.

I've downloaded all the pictures from his sales of SC460 f30s. If anyone wants a copy of all my scans, I can send the file to them. If anyone wants to try to make sense of the "puzzle", please try. The more the better.

Is it possible to piece back together a sheet? I'm not sure. But I think that it would be fun project to try. Also, it could possibly show how many of each were on a sheet and how many cards total on a sheet.

That's a great idea to track all of these scans. I'm not tech savvy nor a big T-206 fan, but it could shed some light on the way sheets were printed.

[tedzan]

These SWEET CAPORAL 350- 460 Factory #30 cards should NOT be classified as "No Prints"....just because they were never inserted into Sweet Cap cigarette packs.

American Lithographic printed many sheets of them. They were originally destined to be shipped to Factory #30 in New York. The anticipated divestiture of American
Tobacco Co. (circa 1911) transferred Sweet Caporal cigarette production to Durham, NC (Factory #42). Federal law required the back advertisements on these cards
be overprinted with "Factory #42".

I don't consider these cards as "scraps"......these cards are legit......just never issued.


.




TED Z
.

[Pat R]

Ted,

The SC factory 42 OP subjects VS the SC 350/460 Factory 30 seems to be
another T206 mystery but I don't see how a federal regulation had anything
to do with the no prints/non released factory 30 subjects. The 52 SC 350/460
factory 30 subjects include all 46 of the 460 only subjects plus the six super prints,
while all of the no prints/non released factory 30 cards are 350/460 subjects,
If a federal regulation requiring them to add the 42 overprint
to the fact 30 had an effect on what subjects are found with a factory 30 back
I would think the opposite would be true with no 460 subjects found with a
factory 30 back.

[tedzan]

We have discussed this in a prior thread some years ago. You can use the Net54 Search function and you'll find it.

Anyhow....in the early 1900's (circa 1902-04) the Federal Gov. required for the purposes of Taxation of Tobacco products, the DISTRICT and FACTORY # had
to be identified on their advertising (cigarette packs, premiums, etc.)

Therefore, in anticipation of the ATC's transfer of their Sweet Cap brand to Liggett & Myers (Durham, NC), the 109 subjects in the T206's 350/460 series and
the 460-only series were stamped with the Durham Factory # 42.

In addition, for some unknown reason, the 46 subjects in the 460-only series were issued and shipped to the NY Factory # 30.


TED Z
.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by tedzan

We have discussed this in a prior thread some years ago. You can use the Net54 Search function and you'll find it.

Anyhow....in the early 1900's (circa 1902-04) the Federal Gov. required for the purposes of Taxation of Tobacco products, the DISTRICT and FACTORY # had
to be identified on their advertising (cigarette packs, premiums, etc.)

Therefore, in anticipation of the ATC's transfer of their Sweet Cap brand to Liggett & Myers (Durham, NC), the 109 subjects in the T206's 350/460 series and
the 460-only series were stamped with the Durham Factory # 42.

In addition, for some unknown reason, the 46 subjects in the 460-only series were issued and shipped to the NY Factory # 30.


TED Z
.

Good info again Ted!!

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

These SWEET CAPORAL 350- 460 Factory #30 cards should NOT be classified as "No Prints"....just because they were never inserted into Sweet Cap cigarette packs.

American Lithographic printed many sheets of them. They were originally destined to be shipped to Factory #30 in New York. The anticipated divestiture of American
Tobacco Co. (circa 1911) transferred Sweet Caporal cigarette production to Durham, NC (Factory #42). Federal law required the back advertisements on these cards
be overprinted with "Factory #42".
I don't consider these cards as "scraps"......these cards are legit......just never issued.


.




TED Z
.

Hi Ted,

I wasn't questioning the tax stamp laws, I was just expressing my opinion whether the factory 30 no prints/non released subjects were effected by the
factory # stamp requirement. In my opinion based on the fact that subjects found with the factory 30 were printed after the no print/non released subjects
I don't think this is the reason behind these no print/non released cards.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Hi Ted,

I wasn't questioning the tax stamp laws, I was just expressing my opinion whether the factory 30 no prints/non released subjects were effected by the
factory # stamp requirement. In my opinion based on the fact that subjects found with the factory 30 were printed after the no print/non released subjects
I don't think this is the reason behind these no print/non released cards.

Pat

First, pardon me if I sound somewhat picky. But, it is obvious that these 57 cards (SWEET CAP 460/30) from the 350/460 series should NOT be referred to as "NO PRINTS".

Now, I'm not sure what you are alluding to regarding the "tax stamp laws" ?


Circa 1901, Federal Tax law specified that Tobacco premiums (Sports & Non-Sports) inserted in Cigarettes packs must identify the tax District and Factory # of the product.

As previously stated, American Litho modified these pre-printed Factory #30 cards by overprinting them with the Factory #42 identity in anticipation that the Sweet Caporal
production was being transferred to the Liggett & Myers Durham, NC (Factory #42) plant in 1911.


When the all the "smoke" cleared in the divestiture process of ATC, it resulted that the Sweet Caporal brand remained with ATC. And this may explain why the 46 subjects in
the 460-only series with SWEET CAP 460/30 backs were shipped to Factory #30.
After these cards had also been overprinted with Factory #42.



TED Z
.

[Pat R]

[QUOTE=tedzan;1452716]These SWEET CAPORAL 350- 460 Factory #30 cards should NOT be classified as "No Prints"....just because they were never inserted into Sweet Cap cigarette packs.

Ted,

I understand what you're saying and technically you're correct, most collectors
of the set know that all 109 subjects with the factory 42 overprint were
printed with a factory 30 back before they received the OP. Even though
the term no print is technically incorrect in this case, most people know
that it refers to cards that were not issued with the factory 30 back.


I don't consider these cards as "scraps"......these cards are legit......just never issued.

If you don't mind me being a little picky too, I totally disagree with you
on this. Two of the major parts of what is considered t206 scrap are found
on these cards, they were not intended to be issued in tobacco products and they are hand cut.

[t206hound]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Two of the major parts of what is considered t206 scrap are found
on these cards, they were not intended to be issued in tobacco products and they are hand cut.

I agree with your assessment, Pat.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by t206hound

I agree with your assessment, Pat.

+1