A couple of printer scrap cards I recently picked up

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Posted By: runscott

Not the Elberfeld and Cobb - they just happened to be part of the scan. This was part of a test I was doing while creating "how to upload an image" post for Julie.

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Posted By: Julie

of a Sweet Caparal T206 back to send to Ben--proposed exchange for his Ramly Brown--I got the back REVERSED, not upside down. Do you have any like that? (I left it that way on the scan but noted the condition of the back).

"Printer's scraps" sounds cheap. Are they? And where do you get them (if you don't mind revealing a source)?

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Posted By: runscott

My thought is that this would be impossible, but I will leave it those who have more background and more familiarity with lithograph printing processes to explain why (Art, Pete and Keith O'Leary should be able to help). I would absolutely love to see a VCBC article by one or more of these guys on the production of t206's - PLEASE!

There are a wide variety of opinions on the value of cards like this, but market value is ultimately determined by what collectors are willing to pay - I have a group of "scrap collector" friends who I share images and stories with. Strange vintage sub-culture, but we have fun. You would not believe some of the collections these guys have of printer scrap cards. Also, you have to keep in mind that some of these cards provide insight into how t206's were manufactured, so there is a definite historical value. There was another card I picked up in this lot that has a story to tell - I plan on writing an article about it prior to posting images, etc., and after speaking with Art to confirm (or negate!) my thoughts.

I received all four of the above cards as part of a Mastro lot - I was very nervous about winning an auction with that many "unknowns" after hearing all the horror stories on the board about auction house grading, but these were graded accurately - at least close enough that I would buy more lots like this from Mastro.

I will also add that I violated my bidding rule of writing down a high bid days in advance and not going over it no matter what, while under the calming influence of a bottle of Cabernet - Mastro should send bottles to their customers to arrive the day the auctions end

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Posted By: petecld

Julie,

PLEASE post a scan of your reversed back. That would be interesting to see.

Does anyone own any E-cards with an upside down back? I have one - an E92 Croft's & Allen Jacklitsch - and it's the only candy card I've owned/seen with an upside down back.

Does anyone else have one?

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Posted By: Julie

..and the reaosn I left my scan that way is that after I got it that way--I have no idea how!--I couldn't straighten it out again, so I just said "back isn't really reversed; it's only the scan."
I'm sure you can do it with your own T206 scans--lemme know how if you can! maybe I can get the scan straightened out again.

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Posted By: runscott

...either in your scanner software, or in your image editing software.

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Posted By: Dave

Scott,

What is the difference between printer's scrap and a printer's error? I would think the scrap never saw a cigarette pack (or whatever), while an error card was normally distributed.

I have a T206 Violat that looks fine on the front but has the Piedmont so far mis-registered on the back that you get almost half the P cut off the left and added to the right side after a gap. I've always assumed this is just a printing error.

I am also almost certain this card came in a pack of cigarettes.

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Posted By: runscott

It's true that printer's scrap cards did not end up in cigarette packs. Probably taken out of the garbage or scrap pile, hand-cut and taken home for the kids.

The card you are describing is just a bad mis-cut. "printers scrap" vs "error" can sometimes be a tough call. I'm sure there were times when either the front or the back of a sheet ended up with a severe problem, but because of laziness or deadlines the cards ended up cut and distributed anyway. What would you call these? I would say "****ty cards". If caught prior to cutting and distribution, and tossed in the scrap pile, they would be considered "printers scrap". It's really just a matter of semantics and should not be too much of a concern.

But in cases where a sheet was tossed in the scrap pile due to a problem, then used to set the presses (or whatever technical phrase you would use), resulting in sheets with multiple backs, missing colors on the front, no backs, etc., these are referred to as "printers scrap", since they were never intended for distribution. I'll give you an example - when I print my Old Judge reprint sheets, I first do a draft black & white print on normal paper. If I screw it up, I turn the sheet over and run it through again so as not to waste more paper. In some cases, if I think I can run another test on a side of the paper that has significant printing on it already, and still see results, I'll even do that. I end up with a severely garbled sheet of paper which I then throw away. I eventually run through the same process with color and photo paper, again ending up with garbled "cards" that I don't even bother cutting...scrap.

Errors are generally accepted to be cards that were distributed, but then a problem was noticed and corrected. So if you have a Dockman Matty with two "t"s in "Matthewson", it's a misspelling, but not an error, since it wasn't corrected. But if had been caught and a new card printed with the correct spelling "Mathewson", then the first card would be considered an error.

T206s that are missing a color (red "B"s are a common one) are considered errors, but in my opinion should not be. I think it was probably a case of someone simply not noticing that the red ink had run out. You see Sweenys and Speakers all the time with various amounts of red.

The "Nodgrass" is another card that is considered an error, but should not be (in my opinion). Again, you see "Snodgrass" cards with various amounts of the letter "S" showing up.

The "Magie" card is a legitimate error, since it was corrected to "Magee".

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Posted By: runscott

You see it constantly on ebay, and now in some of the peripheral auctions: http://www.19thcenturyonly.org/site/bid/bidplace.asp?itemid=1947

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Posted By: Hankron

As far as miscuts, printing goofs, blank backs and such go, I think Dave's definition was essentially a good one (The above Dave, not me). In many cases, the difference between a 'scrap' and a non-scrap printer's error (miscut, blank back) is that a scrap was thrown away ('scrapped') while the printer's error was included in the pack. If you pull a blank back card out of a 1987 Topps, it's a printer's error not a scrap .... Typically, scraps have printing problems and have unprofessional handcut edges (the giveaway, often oversized too). The error pulled straight from a pack will have professionally cut edges.

Both types were printer's goof-ups, so the difference between them is not that big of a deal.

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Posted By: Dave

Here I thought I had two chances at special cards in my T206 set. What I thought was a printer error I can now present as an especially sought after printer error card, very rare.

I thought maybe I had an additional rarity, but, imagine my disappointment when I looked at my Leifield pitching and found that is is in full color with great definition and all the ink. It could have been one of the collector specials.

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Posted By: Hankron

... But what I often find interesting is that many terms & definitions used in any hobby were invented by the collectors many, many years after the item was invented. Often there's a practical use for new terms and definitons (perhaps there was no term for such-and-such 100 years ago), but sometimes it gets amusing. I know that sometimes I get so focused on the definition that I forget what it's defining.

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Posted By: three25hits

I found this very rare reversed front AND reversed slab variation on the sgc registry...

http://www.sgccardregistry.com/images.asp?cardid=44958&usetid=463

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

.....

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Posted By: warshawlaw

I like scrap/error/mistake/SNAFU cards. They are interesting and different from mainstream collecting. I've got a T205 back miscut, a T201 that is badly miscut front and back, an M116 blank back with missing colors, and a T218 front ghost (back print visible on the front). I'm always looking for new ones--spelunking through commons piles at shows. I've also got a great 1949 Leaf Spahn with a back ghost, two 1948 Leaf boxers with blank backs, and three 1948 Leaf wrong backs. My most recent acquisition: a 1969 Topps Yaz severely miscut. It was so far off that I had to have it. The nicest thing about cards like these, especially post WWII cards, is that they are often relegated to the junk bins and can be acquired cheaply.

we are not the only hobby where interest in errors contributes to premium prices. Stamp collectors prize errors (one of the most famous is a stamp with an upside-down plane on it). Coin collectors often go nuts over something called a "double die" coin, which happens when a coin is stamped more than once, and over partial coins that result from mechanical mangling during manufacture.

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Posted By: runscott

...blank backs, wrong backs, mis-cut backs. They were expertly cut from some sheets a while back and given to me by another collector who knew I liked weird stuff like that. I tried getting one of the correct-sized ones graded by SGC and they rejected it as "trimmed". I wondered if they really could tell, or if those sheets were so well known that it was rejected by default. I guess I could wrap them up with a stick of gum to get the appropriate "stained" look, and try sending them to PSA