T206 "Wagner" of Soccer Cards - Proposal

[aljurgela]

The Jose Nasazzi rookie card?

First off, this is as good a place and any to talk about how generally in soccer collecting - like many other sports (most prominently American Football and Basketball) - defenders do not get much respect. OK, they can get some respect - think Ozzie Smith in baseball or Rodman in basketball or Gary Payton or the hottest corner of the day in the NFL - but not much as a group. Soccer is much the same way. You need to be AMAZING to get any notoriety at all. Collectors and historian tend to focus on goal scorer's not goal "preventors" - save for the occasional great goalie like Lev Yashin or Beara.

Hence, most ratings have very few defenders in their lists of greatest players - save perhaps the most famous one, Franz Beckenbauer. OK, when onto Jose...

Nasazzi was the captain of soccer's first dynasty - the Uruguayan National Team. Uruguay won the two most important soccer tournaments of the 1920's - the Olympic Games in 1924 and 1928 and follow that up with a win in the inaugural World Cup in 1930 (where Nasazzi won the Best Player Award). Nasazzi was the leader on the field and because of his efforts and notoriety, Top End Soccer has him as the 75th best player ever. and IFFHS has him as the 26th best South American Player of the 20th Century. Read more about that here:

https://iffhs.de/iffhs-history-south...ury-1900-1999/

While this write up is pretty poor, you can learn more about him here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Nasazzi

OK, here is the card... by the way, one of these cards traded a couple of months ago on eBay and only brought a couple of hundred dollars (I bought it), but I think that it worth much more. Let me know your thoughts since nobody seemed to like the Puskas rookie card:

[Peter_Spaeth]

Al, as someone who is an outsider here, it seems to me that except perhaps among very hard-core collectors/fans there isn't much interest in soccer cards or the history of the sport itself pre-Pele. That seems to differentiate soccer from baseball where (except perhaps with the very latest generation) everyone is somewhat familiar with the greats of the game from the turn of the century on. Maybe I'm just projecting my own outlook, but I have talked to several guys who buy some soccer cards and they pretty much feel the same way. So I am not sure a pre-war soccer card is really a meaningful equivalent to the Wagner. Just my .02 which I would discount at least to .01.

[Ulidia]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Al, as someone who is an outsider here, it seems to me that except perhaps among very hard-core collectors/fans there isn't much interest in soccer cards or the history of the sport itself pre-Pele. That seems to differentiate soccer from baseball where (except perhaps with the very latest generation) everyone is somewhat familiar with the greats of the game from the turn of the century on. Maybe I'm just projecting my own outlook, but I have talked to several guys who buy some soccer cards and they pretty much feel the same way. So I am not sure a pre-war soccer card is really a meaningful equivalent to the Wagner. Just my .02 which I would discount at least to .01.

There is significant interest in the history of soccer and certainly pre-Pele. There are countless high quality soccer museums, albeit they tend to be club or national specific. However, it is true that most of the icons of the game are from post-World War Two onwards and, other than historians, few could name any pre-World War One Stars with soccer history typically being well documented from the 1920s or so.

Culturally, it is a very different sport to baseball. There is much less interest in game statistics (a good thing IMO, although statistical overload has crept in over the past two decades) and very few traditional soccer fans could ever, nor would want to, understand the US “franchise” model. The migration of the Dodgers and Giants from NYC to the west coast simply could not happen in soccer - if, for example, an owner tried to relocate Manchester United to London or Internazionale from Milan to Rome, there’d be civil unrest to an extent that the league would become unmanageable.

However, from a collecting perspective, I believe the key difference is that cards are much less intrinsic to soccer culture than in baseball. For example, Gallaher was a large tobacco company formed in the north of Ireland (what would later become Northern Ireland). Certainly in the 1910s and 1920s, they were prolific issuers of cards of Irish (and English / Scottish) soccer players - they would presumably have been obtained by grandparents and great-grandparents of many soccer fans here in Northern Ireland but, although I know many collectors of soccer memorabilia here, few are interested in cards nor do I know of any who have an emotional attachment to cards based on their prior family generations having built up collections - albeit many were clearly retained as they are easy to purchase today in good condition.

[Anish]

Originally Posted by Ulidia

There is significant interest in the history of soccer and certainly pre-Pele. There are countless high quality soccer museums, albeit they tend to be club or national specific. However, it is true that most of the icons of the game are from post-World War Two onwards and, other than historians, few could name any pre-World War One Stars with soccer history typically being well documented from the 1920s or so.

Culturally, it is a very different sport to baseball. There is much less interest in game statistics (a good thing IMO, although statistical overload has crept in over the past two decades) and very few traditional soccer fans could ever, nor would want to, understand the US “franchise” model. The migration of the Dodgers and Giants from NYC to the west coast simply could not happen in soccer - if, for example, an owner tried to relocate Manchester United to London or Internazionale from Milan to Rome, there’d be civil unrest to an extent that the league would become unmanageable.

However, from a collecting perspective, I believe the key difference is that cards are much less intrinsic to soccer culture than in baseball. For example, Gallaher was a large tobacco company formed in the north of Ireland (what would later become Northern Ireland). Certainly in the 1910s and 1920s, they were prolific issuers of cards of Irish (and English / Scottish) soccer players - they would presumably have been obtained by grandparents and great-grandparents of many soccer fans here in Northern Ireland but, although I know many collectors of soccer memorabilia here, few are interested in cards nor do I know of any who have an emotional attachment to cards based on their prior family generations having built up collections - albeit many were clearly retained as they are easy to purchase today in good condition.

Yeah, footballers are evaluated based on technique, skill, touch, speed, vision, etc rather than OBP, WAR, Home Runs, etc. Accordingly, it’s hard to properly appreciate players who don’t have footage on YouTube. The game was also so decentralized before the World Cup and European Championship eras, so who knows how good Dixie Dean was relative to Paulino Alcantara.

I’m not sure if cards (well, stickers) are less intertwined with soccer than baseball. Maybe it depends on the region. I know match programs were big in the UK but I think stickers predominated in South America.

The Puskas and Nasazzi are both awesome cards. Always great to see any important Pre-War issues.

[Collect Equity]

Originally Posted by Anish

I’m not sure if cards (well, stickers) are less intertwined with soccer than baseball. Maybe it depends on the region. I know match programs were big in the UK but I think stickers predominated in South America.

I originally started collecting soccer purely for speculation / investment. Part of my logic on this is that in the US, I think baseball cards will become less popular/expensive after my generation (those that grew up in the 80s / early 90s) starts to die off because baseball cards won't have been an active part of a kid's childhood. I grew up in a time where we all took our binders of cards to school and traded at recess.

I think that soccer will increase in value because every 4 years kids around the entire world collect soccer stickers right now. These kids will all grow up into adults and will someday gain a disposable income (especially as the world economy becomes intertwined and lifts incomes in poorer countries). And these kids will want to buy into the nostalgia, just like I do.

So I see that cards (stickers actually) are completely intertwined with soccer and will become more and more recognized as such in the generations to come.

It does seem that this is less the case in England. And it is also not the case in the US. But in Italy and South America, parts of Asia and Eastern Europe, I think this is definitely the case.

[sthoemke]

Which vintage soccer sets are most widely collected?

The T206 Wagner and 1952 Mantle aren't the rarest cards by any means, but the sets have a huge collector base, which attributes greatly to demand and value.

My knowledge of soccer sets is limited, but I would be inclined to choose a card from a one of the more well-known companies - Panini, SADA, Lampo, Mira, etc. Cards/stickers from album sets can be especially condition sensitive, and in some cases near impossible to find in rare form. Many sets have scarce variations such as Panini's Valida backs which might be canidates for a holy-grail card consideration.

[aljurgela]

Originally Posted by sthoemke

Which vintage soccer sets are most widely collected?

The T206 Wagner and 1952 Mantle aren't the rarest cards by any means, but the sets have a huge collector base, which attributes greatly to demand and value.

My knowledge of soccer sets is limited, but I would be inclined to choose a card from a one of the more well-known companies - Panini, SADA, Lampo, Mira, etc. Cards/stickers from album sets can be especially condition sensitive, and in some cases near impossible to find in rare form. Many sets have scarce variations such as Panini's Valida backs which might be canidates for a holy-grail card consideration.

But from what I can tell, there are not that many that compare to 1952 Topps or T206s

[Anish]

According to this guy, this the Wagner of soccer cards: https://www.ebay.com/itm/1902-J-F-Be...from=R40&rt=nc

[aljurgela]

Originally Posted by Anish

According to this guy, this the Wagner of soccer cards: https://www.ebay.com/itm/1902-J-F-Be...from=R40&rt=nc

I have a few of those "Wagners" that you could have for less than 2% of his asking price!

[Ulidia]

Originally Posted by Collect Equity

So I see that cards (stickers actually) are completely intertwined with soccer and will become more and more recognized as such in the generations to come.

It does seem that this is less the case in England. And it is also not the case in the US. But in Italy and South America, parts of Asia and Eastern Europe, I think this is definitely the case.

I am a member and season ticket holder of Internazionale in Italy so I can say with some authority that cards / stickers are not the primary soccer collectable there. The money goes to shirts, especially vintage shirts, and pennants.

Walk into any of the large soccer museums in Milan (for example, the San Siro Museum) and you won't see anyone fawning over a card - rather it will be old shirts, photos, medals and trophies. Have a look at soccer auction results and cards don't get the largest prices.

[Anish]

Originally Posted by Ulidia

I am a member and season ticket holder of Internazionale in Italy so I can say with some authority that cards / stickers are not the primary soccer collectable there. The money goes to shirts, especially vintage shirts, and pennants.

Walk into any of the large soccer museums in Milan (for example, the San Siro Museum) and you won't see anyone fawning over a card - rather it will be old shirts, photos, medals and trophies. Have a look at soccer auction results and cards don't get the largest prices.

That’s true for all sports and countries though, right? They don’t show off cards at Yankee Stadium, they have jerseys and other memorabilia. And that stuff generally sells for the most, but it doesn’t mean that cards don’t have a place.

[Collect Equity]

Originally Posted by Ulidia

I am a member and season ticket holder of Internazionale in Italy so I can say with some authority that cards / stickers are not the primary soccer collectable there. The money goes to shirts, especially vintage shirts, and pennants.

Walk into any of the large soccer museums in Milan (for example, the San Siro Museum) and you won't see anyone fawning over a card - rather it will be old shirts, photos, medals and trophies. Have a look at soccer auction results and cards don't get the largest prices.

You may be right that the most collected items currently are shirts and pennants, especially by adults.

However, the reason I collect cards is because as a child it let me get close to my baseball heroes. I love baseball and was never very good, and loved to pull out my cards so that I could feel close to the game. Also, cards make a good collectible because of their size.

So, Ulidia, I am curious if you were to take a poll of 20 kids in the neighborhood or at the soccer stadium, how many collect soccer stickers and if not, do they collect anything else that does let them feel close to the game (magazines, jerseys, etc.)?

My hypothesis is that lack of nostalgia from kids not collecting baseball cards today will lead to a dearth of baseball card collectors in 30 - 40 years. But because kids today collect stickers around the world (especially Panini WC stickers), that soccer cards will become more and more popular over the next 30 - 40 years.

I really am interested in knowing if kids in your neighborhood or who you meet at the soccer stadium collect stickers now.

[aljurgela]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Al, as someone who is an outsider here, it seems to me that except perhaps among very hard-core collectors/fans there isn't much interest in soccer cards or the history of the sport itself pre-Pele. That seems to differentiate soccer from baseball where (except perhaps with the very latest generation) everyone is somewhat familiar with the greats of the game from the turn of the century on. Maybe I'm just projecting my own outlook, but I have talked to several guys who buy some soccer cards and they pretty much feel the same way. So I am not sure a pre-war soccer card is really a meaningful equivalent to the Wagner. Just my .02 which I would discount at least to .01.

Because of the global nature of the game and so many competing leagues (and players), I think that I will try and pull some of this together and potentially publish a bunch of information that could be helpful.... Still, I think that we are awhile away from broad acceptance of any players outside of the top 10/20 global players...

[Collect Equity]

Originally Posted by aljurgela

The Jose Nasazzi rookie card?

I don't think this card is the T206 Wagner of soccer. I actually think Nasazzi is the caliber of player that could have a card with this honor, but I can't think of a card of his that would fit the bill.

For a card to be the T206 Wagner of soccer, it has to be well known by everyone and on everyone's want list. I can't think of any vintage soccer cards (anything pre-1950) that are well enough known by all soccer collectors to make the list. There are some cool rookies out there of star players that are a bit more known, but none that is that well known.

I think the argument for a Pele rookie to be the Wagner of soccer has merits, but I can see that it is more of the 52 Topps Mantle of soccer argument as well, since it's in the same era.

I think a card could bubble up someday that becomes the Wagner of soccer for vintage, where it gets discussed and publicized in media and then over time gets added to all collector's lists. But I think that the vintage soccer hobby is still in its infancy and it might be decades before a card takes that honor.

By the way Al, is there only one 1913 - 14 Taddy Meredith?

[aljurgela]

Originally Posted by collect equity

i don't think this card is the t206 wagner of soccer. I actually think nasazzi is the caliber of player that could have a card with this honor, but i can't think of a card of his that would fit the bill.

Agree... I like him... But none of his issues are well known

for a card to be the t206 wagner of soccer, it has to be well known by everyone and on everyone's want list. I can't think of any vintage soccer cards (anything pre-1950) that are well enough known by all soccer collectors to make the list. There are some cool rookies out there of star players that are a bit more known, but none that is that well known.

This is going to be tough because of the global nature of collecting... I will still try and convince you guys with a few other options

i think the argument for a pele rookie to be the wagner of soccer has merits, but i can see that it is more of the 52 topps mantle of soccer argument as well, since it's in the same era.

I agree here completely... Looking for something outside of the "easy answer"

i think a card could bubble up someday that becomes the wagner of soccer for vintage, where it gets discussed and publicized in media and then over time gets added to all collector's lists. But i think that the vintage soccer hobby is still in its infancy and it might be decades before a card takes that honor.

Agree... Who knows what it would be

by the way al, is there only one 1913 - 14 taddy meredith?

as far as i know there are 3-4 known, but not 100% sure

[aljurgela]

Originally Posted by aljurgela

as far as i know there are 3-4 known, but not 100% sure

why my answers appear in the body of the quote... But please read