How Do You Actually Know It's Trimmed?

[Buythatcard]

I am sure this has been discussed in one form or another but I am just trying to clear this up in my own mind.

How do grading companies or the everyday collector actually determine that an early vintage card is trimmed? Do they measure it? This is what I usually do but I have my doubts sometimes.

What guarantees are there that the machines that cut these cards in the old days were precise. If the machine is set to cut a card 2 5/8" wide but actually cuts it 2 1/2", will this card be graded 100 years down the road as been trimmed?

I just think that some of these early vintage cards that don't measure up to the average size of that card are not really trimmed.

Would love to hear what you guys have to say about this.

[phikappapsi]

Measuring it the first step but it's certainly not the last. You have to see parallel sides T/B L/R... Then you actually have to look at color toningon the sides, is three sides are all brownish off white and the 4th is starch white, that's a red flag. You have to look for stray markings on the edges, exacto knives and the like are not precise, they pull/tear tiny shreds from the cut side layers and leave a distinctive mark. There are a lot of other tells, size specifications are just a stepping off point

[bbcard1]

I am not saying grading companies are particularly astute on any aspect, but everyone knows there are variations on size, especially on t cards. For the most part, I believe mass produces cards have always used a guillotine cutting method, which essentially means there's a big honking stack of paper and the blade is pushed down from the top. The natural curve of the paper and the process leads to a cut that is very slightly diagonal against the paper texture. Trimming with an exacto leads to a cut that tends to be straight against the paper texture. There are also often toning differences along the edges. This isn't a very complete answer and there are other ways a doctor can cheat, but it's a start.

[vintagetoppsguy]

If I suspect that a card is trimmed, I put that card in a stack with cards (about 3 or 4) from the same year and look at the grain of the cut on all 4 borders on all the cards. If a card is trimmed, ususally the grain pattern (cut) will be different.

Just a couple of weeks ago, I had a '62 Topps high number that I suspected of being trimmed. I put with a small stack of other '62s and it stuck out like a sore thumb because the grain pattern was different on the one I suspected of being trimmed.

[steve B]

Size is a good place to start.

The machines were fairly accurate, but depended on the operator to set them. 1/8 difference wouldn't be the machines fault.

After size it's about the quality of the edge. The sort of cutter usually used would leave a particular look to the edge, a slight taper usually on the front, and a slight ridge on the back. If the blade was newly sharpened it leaves less trace, if it was dull the results are more obvious.

I have a couple cards that wouldn't grade, but are factory cut. One was too small, the other had cuts that were too rough top and bottom. With T206 SGC seems more lenient side to side than top to bottom since one that was more narrow than another was short graded ok.

While I wish they'd recognize cards that are factory but undersize or oddly cut I can understand why they won't. It just wouldn't work to have a bunch of stuff out there where people only look at the size and assume trimming.

Odd cuts can happen if the paper is damaged or something else odd happens.I can only imagine the debate if this one ever got slabbed(Yes it's factory!)

Steve B

[Wymers Auction]

I think the 1960 Topps set is really tricky. They can have very jagged edges without being trimmed. I use to think they were trimmed, but after dealing with several sets I realized that is a condition flaw of that set such as the chipping that happens on the 1962 set.

[Wichita]

How could a person be sure the odd edge on the Myers card is from the factory unless they were the original owner...even if they have owned the card a long time? Couldn't it be a trim job by a previous owner?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Wichita

How could a person be sure the odd edge on the Myers card is from the factory unless they were the original owner...even if they have owned the card a long time? Couldn't it be a trim job by a previous owner?

It has all the indicators of a factory miscut. As well as factory cut.

The edge is curved down on the front surface, and there's the corresponding ridge on the back. All the edges are toned equally, although it's in nice shape so theyaren't toned much. And under high magnification the angled marks from the cutter blade are there.
The odd cut is from some piece of debris geting under the cards on the cutter. In this case probably a part of the sacrificial strip the blade goes into. With cardstock there's usually a crease from the step towards one side, but usually only on one end, and in this case it's there on both ends.

So I'm 99.9% sure it's factory. Or if not one of the oddest trim jobs ever.

And I totally understand why no grading company would slab it unless they just didn't have it together that day. (It's also got paperloss on the front that may be factory, and a bit of paperloss on the back directly relaed to one of the crease, so the best it would manage should be a 30. )

Steve B

[tbob]

Since PSA has no clue if a card has been trimmed, and they are supposedly experts, I don't know if there is any fool proof way of telling. You just go with your gut feeling, experience at looking at many cards through the years, etc. Many pre-war Registry cards with PSA 8s and 9s appear trimmed to these old eyes.

[T206Collector]

This is hard to explain in writing, but you must look at the edges of the card while holding the card flat to your eyes. The card should look like this when you are examining it:

-----------------------------------

If you are only looking at it from the face/front or back, you are missing many of the tell-tale signs.

You cannot just measure a T206, for example. You have to look at the flat sides/edges. If you ever have the chance to compare a trimmed edge to a not trimmed edge the differences do jump right out at you.