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#1
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Getting the Record Straight Shoeless Joe
To all who responded. What i find very disappointing is that this shoeless joe jackson military panoramic photo was first posted back in july. It's hard for me to believe that not one who responded today didn't see the original post in july. I have 5 other photos which was used for photo comparison. They were from 1917, 1918 and 1919. All show the bump on the chin. The nose is exact haircut and eyebrows are a match. I think a good pair of glasses are needed here. I have been working all day today as i have back in july getting 100% agreement with this photo. This jackson panoramic was at this years national. Bill goodwin, ha auction and legendary auctions looked at the photos. All agreed that they believed this to be jackson. Today, my wife was at home with 15 women. She was giving a west german mid century vase party to where the women who attended were able to buy her collection of vases. After all this confusion i waited to the end of her party and asked the 15 woman to look at each photo i presented to them on my mac computer. I asked each woman if the man in photo #1 in the top hat looked like the man in the baseball uniform. All 15 woman said yes. "they were the same person" all the woman heard of shoeless joe jackson but only 2 had ever saw a photo of him. I told them after all agreed that the two photos were of the same man. Again, opinions are objective. But when you get 13 woman who had never seen a photograph of joe jackson and when you asked them (15) to look at each man in both photos for comparisons and they all agree that they were the same person well, what more can be said?
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#2
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Once Mark (bmarlowe1) states his educated opinion on this matter, it's pretty much case closed. Trust me on this. You are starting to embarrass yourself. Mark knows his shit, and the man has pretty much stated that it is not Shoeless Joe. Ah, how the lure of a quick buck will make people stoop to desperate measures. This would apply to both the consignor and the auction house. Also, maybe I'm off here, but shouldn't the OP have his/her full name out there? Last edited by CW; 09-15-2014 at 08:08 PM. |
#3
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Now that it's for sale and with big pictures, and claims it's going to be inspected a bit more. This is like when you hyped your overprint T206. You got folks talking looking to help your sale/consignment. Sadly the talking here on this item isn't 100% it's cool good luck as it was with the T206. Last edited by wonkaticket; 09-15-2014 at 08:14 PM. |
#4
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Mark, I have question for you and need your photo skills to help me. I have a photo I think is Moses Fleetwood Walker I would like to sell to H&S, can you let me know if it's him...looks a bit like him.
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#5
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As for the "Fleet Walker" photo mentioned above by Wonka (below far left), lot 237, which not surprisingly also originated with EVAJOY91, http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=190922 - obviously not 19thC uniforms, and more obviously not Walker: Last edited by bmarlowe1; 09-15-2014 at 08:49 PM. |
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I asked my wife who has not heard of Shoeless Joe but has heard of Joe Dimaggio btw, to look at the images and didn't share my opinion. She is a a photographer and visual artist, and is just completing her MA in fine art studies (she has a great eye for detail and is smart....no taste in men....but that is another story!).
Katie (my wife) says "the solider has a flatter, more rugged jaw line that the pics of the baseball player" and "the soldier had a cleft or dimpled chin, noticeable even in the low res image, while the baseball player has a convex or protruding area on his chin". "Not the same individual". Katie also correctly indicated that the hat the soldier is wearing is not a "top hat" but is a "campaign hat". A campaign hat (also campaign cover, drill instructor cover, drill sergeant hat, lemon squeezer, Montana Peak, Mountie hat, ranger hat, sergeant hat, Scouts hat and Smokey Bear) is a broad-brimmed felt or straw hat, with a high crown, pinched symmetrically at the four corners (the "Montana crease").
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Looking for Toronto baseball items. Please contact me at chris@pacmedia.ca Last edited by baseball tourist; 09-15-2014 at 08:49 PM. Reason: Typo |
#7
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Eva, instead of posting an endless array of photos of Joe Jackson, can you please post just 1 higher-resolution image of the individual in your panoramic photo? If comparison photos are warranted after that, I'm sure that plenty of high-quality comps can be produced of Joe Jackson. You (and/or the folks at Huggins) are the only ones with access to the guy in the panoramic though.
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Ebay Store and Weekly Auctions Web Store with better selection and discounts Polite corrections for unidentified and misidentified photos appreciated. Rude corrections also appreciated, but less so. |
#8
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Just another case of a collector spending days on his knees praying that an item is really what they want it to be. Yup, a farm tool is a bat. The paper item is old., the pennant too cool not to be real. The guy in this picture is....
People and their money are always around to make fools of themselves and there is always someone there to help them along |
#9
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$co++ Forre$+ Last edited by Runscott; 09-16-2014 at 09:02 AM. |
#10
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Dude,
Let me repeat and see if you get it this time. It doesn't matter how many parts of the face do match, if one, and it needs to be only one, part doesn't match, it's not the same person. The exceptions are differences that can be explained by age, illness/surgery/injury, or weight gain. You can point out the brow and chin and forehead and nose and eyes as much as you want. The ears aren't the same so it CAN'T be him. The shape of your ears Do Not Change. The ears must match or IT ISN'T THE SAME GUY. A couple other points. 1) Stop saying he was inducted. He was not inducted into the military. He never joined the military. He took a private job in a factory that made ships for the military INSTEAD of joining the military. None of us here agrees to anything else. You're they only one who thinks he was in any way in the military. 2) Having 15 women look at a photo and say the 2 guys look like each other is possibly the worst and least scientific argument you have made here today. None of them have any expertise, like Mark (Bmarlowe1) does, to do any sort of facial recognition. Just because a bunch of people state someone looks like someone, doesn't overrule EVIDENCE. The ears don't match END OF STORY. I don't remember seeing this photo in July, so I may not have commented, but I will say this...You bring these items on here with all sorts of claims. Every time someone points out how it isn't what you want it to be, you always seem to have some explanation and refuse to admit that you are wrong. Chris (Baseball Tourist) listed a bunch or them in post 13, but left out the Fire Dept belt that you tried to say was a baseball belt. We present fact after fact and you still don't believe. EDIT: I agree with Lance. Post a high res photo of the guys in the military photo's face.
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My signed 1934 Goudey set(in progress). https://flic.kr/s/aHsjFuyogy Other interests/sets/collectibles. https://www.flickr.com/photos/96571220@N08/albums My for sale or trade photobucket album https://flic.kr/s/aHsk7c1SRL Last edited by Lordstan; 09-15-2014 at 08:58 PM. |
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At least with respect to photo ID, it seems there has been a significant improvement in auction house behavior in recent years. This change is correlated with (and likely influenced by) the emergence of at least several people outside of the AHs who have demonstrated that they are really good at this. That has fostered an increase in both healthy skepticism at auction houses and a general improvement in photo ID skills among the collecting population.
I have been fortunate to participate in all this as a consultant on early baseball photo ID to collectors, auction houses (including Huggins and Scott), major libraries (Library of Congress, Boston Public Library),authors, and most importantly I have written more articles on this subject than I can count for SABR. As such, I am more than willing to match my skills against deluded collectors and German vase enthusiasts. It is the behavior of the auction house with respect to this photo and the “Fleet Walker” image that is most disturbing. The wholly irrational commentary posted here by the AH in response to arguments of well-known experts is appalling and should be embarrassing. Mike Nola has shown himself to be a high quality researcher and he is probably the preeminent Joe Jackson expert, and Dave Grob is the best memorabilia researcher and authenticator I know of. Add to that the ear discrepancy, and you have one of the worst examples of nonsense that I have seen on net54. Mar.kFim0ff co-chairman SABR – Pictrorial History Committee Last edited by bmarlowe1; 09-16-2014 at 09:01 AM. |
#12
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Thanks for the kudos Mark, I respect your work as well, when you confirmed your thoughts on it not being Joe, then I was SURE if wasn't him, although I was already 99 percent sure it wasn't :-)
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#13
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On Another Joe Jackson Note..........
On another Joe Jackson note, I have a photo up for sale on the upcoming RMY Auctions. It is of Joe and his 1925 Waycross (GA) Coastliners team. You can see it here at: http://blackbetsy.com/imagefarm/new-...al-cropped.jpg
I acquired this from the grandson of the editor (during Joe's playing days there) of the Waycross Journal Herald newspaper. This is the only known copy to exist as it was not sent out over the wire services by the small town newspaper. Just in case anyone here may be interested in obtaining a REAL image with Joe Jackson in it (Jackson, third from right in photo). Mike Nola Official Historian Shoeless Joe Jackson's Virtual Hall of Fame http://www.blackbetsy.com |
#14
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Getting the Record Straight Shoeless Joe Jackson Military service
Net54 members, today I asked Bill Huggins to pull this shoeless Joe Jackson military panoramic photograph from his upcoming auction. I will further my research because I believe that this is Shoeless Joe. I thank you all for your information and want to thank Hugging & Scott who stood by me till I asked them to pull the item at 12:10pm today Tuesday Sept, 16, 2014.
Last edited by EVAJOY91; 09-16-2014 at 10:19 AM. |
#15
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Consignor did the right thing. I put more of the weight of all this on the auction house anyway. |
#16
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Now how about pulling that "Fleet Walker" photo? |
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http://www.wix.com/boblee89/brocks-collection |
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Thanks for all your input. With agreement from the consignor, we are pulling the Joe Jackson military panoramic from the auction.
Josh |
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#20
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They have had quite a few.... Some other classics that may have been missed. http://aug14.hugginsandscott.com/cgi...l?itemid=71538 The sign is early 20th at best, a little research will show you that the producer of the sign was Belgian company that wasn't even up and running big till the 20's/30's and was a tin producer of lots of things such as cocoa tins. Not everything that has the W.D. & H.O. Wills LTD. "Pirate Cigarettes" brand is connected directly to the T215 issue of cards but in the H&S world it is. When the current winner of this sign figures out what he bought and does a little digging overseas....he's going to find he may have paid a tad too much. I get that not every auction house can do hours of research on every item they sell they may not have the man power etc. But at the very least don't make up stuff, just say early 20th Pirate Cigarettes sign...why jump to T215 era and big stories. Just like with the Wagner partial back...just say miscut Bowerman all the fantasy stuff is really insulting. Last edited by wonkaticket; 09-16-2014 at 12:08 PM. |
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