Outed cards, now including a 130K gain on an Aaron rookie

[jackwesq]

Hi everyone. There's a great scene in the movie Margin Call where Risk Analyst Peter Sullivan (played by Zachary Quinto) tells CEO John Tuld (played by Jeremy Irons) that if the company's assets of mortgage-backed securities were to drop by just 25% and remain on the books, that loss would be greater than the current market capitalization of the entire company.

With that in mind, I wonder if PSA were to pay out on their guarantee on every single altered card, if that payout would be greater than CLTC’s current market capitalization of $217M. Based on what I have read here and on Blowout Cards, I’m not confident it would not.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by jackwesq

Hi everyone. There's a great scene in the movie Margin Call where Risk Analyst Peter Sullivan (played by Zachary Quinto) tells CEO John Tuld (played by Jeremy Irons) that if the company's assets of mortgage-backed securities were to drop by just 25% and remain on the books, that loss would be greater than the current market capitalization of the entire company.

With that in mind, I wonder if PSA were to pay out on their guarantee on every single altered card, if that payout would be greater than CLTC’s current market capitalization of $217M. Based on what I have read here and on Blowout Cards, I’m not confident it would not.

But they aren't paying on the guarantee. They've successfully deflected the responsibility back on the sellers, reducing their liability.

For example, card graded A =200 graded 5= 1000 graded 6= 2000

Instead of paying the owner 1800 for a card altered from a 5 to a 6, they have them return it, and maybe pay the scammer 800. Unless they have some excuse to not pay the seller, perhaps referring them back up the chain to whoever altered it who they probably don't have to pay.

Brilliant, but scummy.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by steve B

But they aren't paying on the guarantee. They've successfully deflected the responsibility back on the sellers, reducing their liability.

For example, card graded A =200 graded 5= 1000 graded 6= 2000

Instead of paying the owner 1800 for a card altered from a 5 to a 6, they have them return it, and maybe pay the scammer 800. Unless they have some excuse to not pay the seller, perhaps referring them back up the chain to whoever altered it who they probably don't have to pay.

Brilliant, but scummy.

I think it is brilliant also. The problem is like we seen on here with the T3 Cobb and Dan McKee. If the sale wasn't through eBay and recent enough for eBay/PayPal to force a refund the cards owner is out of other options. With private sales and older sales the seller just tells the buyer to pound sand.

[PolarBear]

Originally Posted by steve B

Unless they have some excuse to not pay the seller, perhaps referring them back up the chain to whoever altered it who they probably don't have to pay.

I think that's the strategy because it's a violation of their TOS to knowingly submit altered cards. So, if they can push the refunds back to the submitter, they won't have to pay anything.

[Exhibitman]

Class action suit will follow...

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Class action suit will follow...

We can only hope...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Joe D turns over a new Leaf.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=4137

[Peter_Spaeth]

Mercy another whitewashed Leaf Jackie graded by SGC.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=4141

[Paul S]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Joe D turns over a new Leaf.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=4137

You know what's really interesting (for me, anyway)? I like that card better as a 1 Poor. Has more character. The doctoring really sucked the life out of it.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Class action suit will follow...

Oh a civil lawsuit?

[SMPEP]

Originally Posted by steve B

But they aren't paying on the guarantee. They've successfully deflected the responsibility back on the sellers, reducing their liability.

For example, card graded A =200 graded 5= 1000 graded 6= 2000

Instead of paying the owner 1800 for a card altered from a 5 to a 6, they have them return it, and maybe pay the scammer 800. Unless they have some excuse to not pay the seller, perhaps referring them back up the chain to whoever altered it who they probably don't have to pay.

Brilliant, but scummy.

And there's a very simple solution - stop buying graded cards. Period. Full stop. Never buy another graded card in your life. And you will solve this problem.

But no one will do that.

So PSA, Moser and PWCC will win.

[Stonepony]

Originally Posted by SMPEP

And there's a very simple solution - stop buying graded cards. Period. Full stop. Never buy another graded card in your life. And you will solve this problem.

But no one will do that.

So PSA, Moser and PWCC will win.

I understand the sentiment, but the statement that card alterations would disappear if we stopped buying graded cards- is wishful thinking at best.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Stonepony

I understand the sentiment, but the statement that card alterations would disappear if we stopped buying graded cards- is wishful thinking at best.

It will go down drastically as the easy money incentive with disappear.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Stonepony

I understand the sentiment, but the statement that card alterations would disappear if we stopped buying graded cards- is wishful thinking at best.

True- alterations will never disappear, but would definitely be lessened to a large degree. The risk/reward payoff for card doctors and corrupt dealers would take a giant hit. The reason that Moser and others are doing this in such huge volume, is attributed to the huge paybacks they receive for a single numerical bump. Without the grading insanity, their ROI would be a fraction of what they are currently getting by manipulating the TPGs.

In addition, collectors would pay a hell of a lot less for any mistakes made than they're paying now. The current situation is simply "minting" tons of money for Doctors, Dealers and the TPGs. Perhaps it's time that the balance of power shifted away from them, and back to the collector.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by perezfan

True- alterations will never disappear, but would definitely be lessened to a large degree. The risk/reward payoff for card doctors and corrupt dealers would take a giant hit. The reason that Moser and others are doing this in such huge volume, is attributed to the huge paybacks they receive for a single numerical bump. Without the grading insanity, their ROI would be a fraction of what they are currently getting by manipulating the TPGs.

In addition, collectors would pay a hell of a lot less for any mistakes made than they're paying now. The current situation is simply "minting" tons of money for Doctors, Dealers and the TPGs. Perhaps it's time that the balance of power shifted away from them, and back to the collector.

Very very well said.....I’m in full agreement 😊

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Very very well said.....I’m in full agreement 😊

They are even doing it on cheap cards and making $50!

Maybe those were a swing and a miss, but doubtful any card that could be conserved wasnt

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by SMPEP

And there's a very simple solution - stop buying graded cards. Period. Full stop. Never buy another graded card in your life. And you will solve this problem.

But no one will do that.

So PSA, Moser and PWCC will win.

That’s correct and you and I both know this will never happen....people are gonna have to accept the fact the industry is loaded with fraud and manipulation or move on and find a new hobby to be passionate about it’s sad.....to many people are making money so they keep hush....

[steve B]

Originally Posted by SMPEP

And there's a very simple solution - stop buying graded cards. Period. Full stop. Never buy another graded card in your life. And you will solve this problem.

But no one will do that.

So PSA, Moser and PWCC will win.

I've bought very few. probably under 20. I have sent some to SGC to be graded, but not for a while.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Grade unchanged, but apparent stain removal, same National submission as cards previously identified as cleaned, a Leaf Jackie and a CJ Joe Jackson.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1306000

[Peter_Spaeth]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=4277

[kateighty]

Originally Posted by SMPEP

And there's a very simple solution - stop buying graded cards. Period. Full stop. Never buy another graded card in your life. And you will solve this problem.

But no one will do that.

So PSA, Moser and PWCC will win.

That's a naive take in my opinion. Everything isn't just black and white. There's an in-between. What about those of us who were new to collecting and paid the money to preserve and grade our legitimate cards only to get 1's and 2's because we had no clue this stuff was going on?

Personally, I was new to all of this in the last decade. Here's a bit of a glimpse to the other side. I'm sure we're not the only people with this experience. My dad and I had a growing collection and when trying to navigate what to do with our cards we saw "oh wow PWCC/Probstein/Novella have the same cards as us, they're crappy looking but got a 7 or 8 and sold for ridiculous amounts, surely our cards will get a better grade!" We learned the hard way, especially with PSA. It didn't matter what our cards looked like. Because we were submitting a mere 10 at a time no way in hell were we getting grades like those submitting 100 cards at a time. That's why we switched to SGC.

At the end of the day there are many people out there like me who had their unaltered cards graded completely unaware of what was going on behind the scenes. Some of us actually have legit graded cards. They're not all involved in this mess. Don't hate on those of us who have followed the rules and stayed true to our hobby.

[perezfan]

There's still a ton of information that has yet to come out before we know how deep this really goes. This is just the infancy stage. Some rather interesting new quotes, and damning implications pertaining to the TPGs on pages 177 and 178 of the Blowout Mantle/PWCC thread.

Link...

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...90614&page=177

[Peter_Spaeth]

N300 Anson, from an A to a 5. Jeez.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...90614&page=182

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

N300 Anson, from an A to a 5. Jeez.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...90614&page=182

Wow that’s bad real bad.....PSA is striking out big time.....