New Rules

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Posted By: warshawlaw 

Bill Maher has a great show on HBO and at the end he lays out "new rules" for conduct based on particularly egregious or stupid stories in the news. Here are some new rules for ebay:

New Rule: Any seller who emails me asking for feedback before posting theirs doesn't friggin' get it. Ever. Even if the item comes in and is better than expected.

New Rule: Any buyer who posts negative comments with a positive feedback designation shall be forced to write 100 times "I will stand up for what I believe and will not behave like a mealy-mouthed crapweasel".

New Rule: Any seller who closes a listing for a fake item by invoking God shall be forced to read the entirety of the Jim Bakker criminal fraud trial transcript and pass a written ethics examination before being permitted to sell another item.

New Rule: Anyone who claims to be selling cards to pay for an illness must post a letter from their doctor explaining the circumstance or they shall be summarily infected with that illness if they cannot comply. Don't exploit sympathies towards sick people...

New Rule: Anyone who claims to be selling cards to pay for a child's education shall post the child's SAT results. Any child with a score lower than the minimum eligibility level for NCAA athletes shall be presumed too stupid to attend college and the listing shall be voided.

New Rule: Any seller caught key word spamming by using the term PSA, SGC, GAI or Becketts in a listing that does not in fact sell a card graded by one of those services shall be forced to eat a holder from the service in question. Comparisons are ok (e.g., this SGC card is comparable to a PSA card). If they don't want to eat it, we can find another means of administration...

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Posted By: Julie

I once told a buyer (not on ebay), truthfully, that I was selling some T202s to help put my son through college...he worked for the New Yorker, got phone calls there, but refused to tell me what he did! Anyway, he bought a card or two. Chris graduated from Berkeley.

I once SAID I was leaving positive feedback for someone and left hedgy feedback. Wouldn't you rather have a nice green plus than a nasty red minus?

I'm usually the buyer, and sometimes seller leaves feedback as soon as he gets my money, and sometimes he waits around for me to say I like the thing. I don't care which way he does it. Of course, if I was leaving something nergative, HE'D be in for a surprise!

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Posted By: jay behrens

Sorry, but I ahve to strongly disagree with rule one. As a seller, I am not leaving feedback for a buyer until I know they are happy, or they seem unable to come to a reasonable compromise. Just because a buyer makes a fast payment does not mean they are a good customer. I've had to deal with too many scammers over the years and I am not giving up my chance to exposes bad buyers. If I post a postive before the transaction is truely completed, then I give upt eh chance to expose a bad buyer that tries scam me in one way or another.

Jay

I saw weird stuff in that place last night. Wierd, strange, sick, twisted, eerie, godless, evil stuff. And I want in.

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Posted By: runscott

A transaction is not truly over until the buyer has posted positive feedback for you. But as a buyer, what are your rules? ...the transaction is not truly over until you have received the card, you like it, and the seller has agreed that he's happy that you are happy, and HE posts positive feedback?

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Posted By: warshawlaw

But as long as we're in serious mode:

As far as I am concerned, my performance as a buyer ends the moment I pay for the item. That's all I have to do to complete my end of the contract. The rest is up to the seller: delivery of a conforming item. If a seller is paid in full and on time, what reason is there to hold back positive feedback for me, other than to use the retaliatory negative feedback threat as a mechanism to strongarm me into either leaving good feedback for the seller or not commenting on a transaction? The seller's satisfaction with my peformance in the transaction has nothing to do with the appropriate subject of feedback, which is whether I lived up to my end of the contract by paying on time and in full for the item. Basing the decision to leave me feedback on anything else is just a form of feedback extortion.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

Weird, not wierd. You got one but not the other. Is this a Hunter S. Thompson line, BTW? I like his when the going gets weird, the weird turn pro line.

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Posted By: Julie

I thought tags were always the same.

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Posted By: jay behrens

scott, as buyer, once I get my item and I am happy with it I leave feedback for the seller. I do not expect a seller to leave me feedback first. Why would I hold other sellers to a different standard than I hold myself?

Adam, did you read my post? You may think of it as threatening retaliatory feedback, but what recourse do we have as sellers have to identify bad buyers other than make sure they happy first before leaving feedback? The feedback system is a big enough joke already. If sellers don't have the ability to identify bad buyers/scammers, then we may as well just scrap the whole feedback system. If you got your item and you are happy with it, why is sucha burden for you to leave feedback first at let the seller know that you are happy with the transaction?

Jay

I saw weird stuff in that place last night. Weird, strange, sick, twisted, eerie, godless, evil stuff. And I want in.

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Posted By: runscott

That's what makes a horse-race.

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Posted By: Darren J Duet

Retalitory feedback is an immature self defense mechanism. The buyer's responsibity ends when payment is made. Once a seller receives my check or paypal payment and deposits it, my responsibility as a buyer is done. If I have something negative or neutral to say about the seller, that is my right to do so even if the seller is pleased with my performance. Are all buyer's who pay promptly and are dissatisfied with a seller's service, bad buyers? NO. As a major purchaser of cardboard I feel that those of you who sell should avoid falling into the retalitory feedback trap.

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Posted By: David Vargha

I always leave feedback first. As a buyer, I will not do so until the seller posts first.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: runscott

I generally leave feedback when I'm paid, as soon as I have time - in cases where I have a weird purchaser who pays really late, or skips sending insurance, or is a bothersome PITA, I just don't leave feedback.

But to play devil's advocate, a scenario that I anticipate occurring at some point: buyer doesn't want insurance, uses Paypal, uses unconfirmed address even though I forbade that in my auction description, then the item doesn't get there and he leaves negative feedback and gets a refund from Paypal. But IMO that scenario isn't worth worrying about.

BTW - I shipped your item today and will go leave positive feedback in a moment!

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Posted By: warshawlaw

for accepting paypal and accepting a nonverified address and shipping w/o proof of delivery. You already know that kind of behavior is the unprotected sex of internet sales...As the old saying goes, cheat me once shame on you but cheat me twice shame on me.

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Posted By: runscott

...but I get all sweaty in my full-body internet condom.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Yes, the buyers responsiblity is to pay promptly, but there are things a buyer can do after that point that can warrant negative feedback. And I have had to leave negs for 4 people because of crap they have tried to pull after they promptly paid for an item. 2 of those people were scammers that no one knew about until I posted what they did int heir feedback. So after that, they started getting more negs for the same reason.

Just as 99.9% of the sellers are good people, 99.9% of the buyers are good people. But there needs to be a way yo identify the truely bad guys when it comes to buyers too.

It's truely sad that you guys think of it as retaliatory feedback. Tells me alot about your mentality, which isn't good. eBay is all about cover your ass. Darren, as you so clearly said in post, you get positive feedback for paying right away, but should be able to post a negative without consequenes. This is exactly the situation the scammer wants so that he can go on scamming other sellers that when they look at his feedback they see nothing but happy commments

And if you guys are such good customers, why worry about when a seller posts feedback? If you are a truely good customer, then you have nothing to worry about other than NOT getting feedback. As buyer, I always post feedback regardless of whether or not the seller has posted any. In fact, I don't expect them to post any until I've posted.

It's amazing that you people are all gung ho for getting rid of bad sellers, but yet bitch about buyer scams, yet want to make it as easy as possible for those types to keep operating. It won't take a smart scammer long to learn that it pays to be a scammer buying instead of selling if everyone scted this way.

Jay

I saw weird stuff in that place last night. Weird, strange, sick, twisted, eerie, godless, evil stuff. And I want in.

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Posted By: runscott

Conversely, if you are such a great seller, what do you have to worry about?

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Posted By: Tex

...for buying and selling, and, once I get past a f/b rating of 10 or so, I couldn't give two flips whether a seller leaves me feedback. Sellers are still going to sell to me anyway, so who cares?

I suspect that if auctions only displayed the seller's feedback rating as a seller, then a lot less buyers would be so anxious to receive feedback.

It's laughable how many auctions there are from sellers where the description points out the seller's illustrious feedback when most of the feedback was simply from purchases, not sales. Of course, they know most buyers on ebay won't check how the feedback was obtained.

Also, Jay is correct - scammers who do chargebacks with their credit card after receiving the goods would always have perfect feedback if all sellers left f/b immediately after a purchase. While it's true that a buyer can technically do a chargeback after leaving feedback anyway, it's also true that it's a lot easier to prove he committed fraud if there's a written recording that he received the goods as described.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Scott, if you haven't figured out what I am worried about after spelling it out twice, then I offically pass the title of Dunderhead to you. Wear it with pride.

Jay

I saw weird stuff in that place last night. Weird, strange, sick, twisted, eerie, godless, evil stuff. And I want in.

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Posted By: runscott

I understand you perfectly, I just don't agree with you.

So please, no need to repeat yourself...as I just did.

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Posted By: dan mckee

As a buyer, I leave feedback as soon as the item arrives and I am happy with it. As a seller, I used to leave FB as soon as the buyer paid, but NO MORE! I have been burned twice by 2 idiots. One clobbered me because he bought a goudy fine pen from me and left me a neg because he thought it was a card! He never gave me a chance to offer a refund, this was an $8 item. Next jerk lights me up after I offer him a full refund including his return shipping for an item that I had 2 of and sent to different people, it was a Charles Bronson cancelled check. They were so similar it wasn't worth trying to do a swap with the happy buyer. The jerk told me no problem, he is happy and will keep it anyway, then he clobbers me with a neutral! As a seller I couldn't have done any more than offer a full refund and I get dinged. NEVER AGAIN! NO feedback goes out until the buyer leaves it for me or unless I know the buyer.

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Posted By: Darren J. Duet

Jay,
I certainly understand your views and do respect them, you have every right to state them. I have stated my views and stand behind them. We all have our experiences which have led to the way we feel on the subject. There is no easy answer, nor is there a clear cut right and wrong. You may check my feedback and review my ebay history to get an idea of the kind of customer I am. This alone does not mean I'm a good, reasonable person, but it does give you an idea IF I'm worth doing business with. There is a Right way to handle good customers and there is a Wrong way to handle good sellers, vica versa.

My ebay name is casey756

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Posted By: Julie

...and I can certainly understand a seller wanting to know how his item was received before leaving feedback. Perhaps an e-mail will come with complaints or problems, perhaps buyer will leave negative fedback to which seller can respond profitably.

As to the above discussion, the most memorable part was the metaphor of the "unprotected sex" of dealing on ebay and the response of feeling sweaty in (my) full-body internet condom.