Why are they not playing baseball ?

[insidethewrapper]

Why are they not playing baseball and compromising ? It can't be the players want more money. The contracts this past year are unbelievable. What is the biggest issue ? Are these guys in the real world ? Will baseball season being delayed etc. effect the card collecting world ? I know I'm fed up with these guys. Let's Play Ball.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

Why are they not playing baseball and compromising ? It can't be the players want more money. The contracts this past year are unbelievable. What is the biggest issue ? Are these guys in the real world ? Will baseball season being delayed etc. effect the card collecting world ? I know I'm fed up with these guys. Let's Play Ball.

The players want more money. The owners want more money. We want baseball. To be continued....

[Seven]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

Why are they not playing baseball and compromising ? It can't be the players want more money. The contracts this past year are unbelievable. What is the biggest issue ? Are these guys in the real world ? Will baseball season being delayed etc. effect the card collecting world ? I know I'm fed up with these guys. Let's Play Ball.

It's 100% on the owners.

It's easy to be pissed off at both sides, Because it's the Millionaires Vs. The Billionaires, but there's genuine problems. The owners have more or less imposed a de facto salary cap, average player salary has more or less stayed the same over the past decade, while revenue and profits have gone through the roof. The commissioner of the sport is grossly out of touch, referring to the crowning achievement of the sport as a "piece of metal"

None of the players demands are truly unreasonable either. They want to lower the amount of service time before free agency, they don't want draft bonuses to be capped, they want the luxury tax raised so teams can be more competitive.

Further than that players expressed the willingness to play under the old CBA for this season, until an agreement could be reached, but the owners refused. It was the owners that locked out the players, not the other way around.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Seven

It's 100% on the owners.

It's easy to be pissed off at both sides, Because it's the Millionaires Vs. The Billionaires, but there's genuine problems. The owners have more or less imposed a de facto salary cap, average player salary has more or less stayed the same over the past decade, while revenue and profits have gone through the roof. The commissioner of the sport is grossly out of touch, referring to the crowning achievement of the sport as a "piece of metal"

None of the players demands are truly unreasonable either. They want to lower the amount of service time before free agency, they don't want draft bonuses to be capped, they want the luxury tax raised so teams can be more competitive.

Further than that players expressed the willingness to play under the old CBA for this season, until an agreement could be reached, but the owners refused. It was the owners that locked out the players, not the other way around.

Completely agree. It's 100% on the owners.

One of the main things the players are upset about is the manipulation of service time. Kris Bryant is the poster child for that. Teams hold off bringing up players that are clearly ready for the majors until after a certain date so they can get another year of that player's services before free agency. It's anti-competitive, it artificially lowers salaries, and it's just wrong.

Along with that, players are also upset that teams are tanking. And, as always, they're upset that teams who receive revenue sharing aren't spending it on players as they're supposed to.

It's also worth noting that MLB cut the draft in size and eliminated 1/4 of all minor league teams - just because. What they've done to minor league baseball is just criminal.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

Why are they not playing baseball and compromising ? It can't be the players want more money. The contracts this past year are unbelievable. What is the biggest issue ? Are these guys in the real world ? Will baseball season being delayed etc. effect the card collecting world ? I know I'm fed up with these guys. Let's Play Ball.

Yeah, blame the players. 65% of them don't make a million dollars. Focus on the guys making $500,000, not the owners who own teams worth BILLIONS.

[insidethewrapper]

I guess everyone sees things differently. If I own a business, I can set my price on an item and set my salary wages. If it is not competitive with the business down the street I will go out of business. If the wages are poor , I will not have many employees etc. The market dictates. I think the owner should make these decisions and not the employees.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

I guess everyone sees things differently. If I own a business, I can set my price on an item and set my salary wages. If it is not competitive with the business down the street I will go out of business. If the wages are poor , I will not have many employees etc. The market dictates. I think the owner should make these decisions and not the employees.

There is no other major league of baseball down the street. There is 1. And it's turned into a gazillion dollar enterprise on the backs of skilled players. Not greedy owners.

[Wanaselja]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Yeah, blame the players. 65% of them don't make a million dollars. Focus on the guys making $500,000, not the owners who own teams worth BILLIONS.

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

There is no other major league of baseball down the street. There is 1. And it's turned into a gazillion dollar enterprise on the backs of skilled players. Not greedy owners.

Nothing to add. Just thought it was worth repeating.

[John1941]

It's so annoying how, on MLB.com, they have a FAQ for the CBA negotiations, and they blame everything on the players. Yeah, right.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

I guess everyone sees things differently. If I own a business, I can set my price on an item and set my salary wages. If it is not competitive with the business down the street I will go out of business. If the wages are poor , I will not have many employees etc. The market dictates. I think the owner should make these decisions and not the employees.

Your business doesn't have an anti-trust exemption...

[egri]

Baseball will survive, despite the best efforts of the people who run it.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Doubtless one thing we can all agree on is that Rob Manfred has no business being commissioner of a beer league, much less MLB.

[egri]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

Doubtless one thing we can all agree on is that Rob Manfred has no business being commissioner of a beer league, much less MLB.

I didn't think we could have a worse commissioner than Selig, but Manfred has proved me wrong. Selig at least was a fan of the game.

[jingram058]

It's 100% on the players and the owners, 50/50. The whole thing is a pile of feces anymore. Too many TV commercials every half inning to pay those player salaries you're all so quick to defend, thus you can't shorten the length of a nine inning game enough to keep anyone interested. Stupid designated hitters, stadiums named after corporations, instant replays, four finger intentional walks, yada yada yada. Yeah, baseball is great, the players all ought make a trillion dollars and the owners are all greedy. BS.

[Fred]

Players want more pay to play a game that most would kill to play for free at that level.

Owners are getting tired of having to provide contracts for single players that is the GDP of some small nations.

No clue on a happy middle ground.

What would be cool is if players were paid a NICE minimum salary at the MLB level so that they are all rewarded for being in the show. Then figure a formula that pays all players at a rate that reflects their recent past production.

No way to get parity in the league because if you're in the Yankees or Dodgers system, you're in the land of moola. If you're in a small market then the money just isn't the same.

Believe me, I'm not against players making an incredible amount of money but when you think about it, just how many of them would turn down a $30M 5 year contract to play ball if the only other option was having to actually "work" for a living.

Owners should lower prices for fans. That would require players not asking for unbelievable pay days. Without fans the sport ain't shit. And neither is our card board.

In my eyes, they (players/owners) should take better care of the minor leaguers and consider the fans by making it affordable for the ordinary average guy.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by jingram058

It's 100% on the players and the owners, 50/50. The whole thing is a pile of feces anymore. Too many TV commercials every half inning to pay those player salaries you're all so quick to defend, thus you can't shorten the length of a nine inning game enough to keep anyone interested. Stupid designated hitters, stadiums named after corporations, instant replays, four finger intentional walks, yada yada yada. Yeah, baseball is great, the players all ought make a trillion dollars and the owners are all greedy. BS.

I'm too young to be a grouchy old fart, but I agree. I have no sympathy for whiny billionaire owners. And no sympathy for whiny millionaires who play a game and act like they are somehow oppressed by this system in which they are in the very top percentile of the most fortunate people on the planet while getting to earn it by playing a game. The increasing costs to watch a game that is less interesting with every year and increasingly becoming a limited outcome event (swing for dinger, or strikeout) is just not a good combination to me. I don't really watch games anymore, still love the history. It has always had its problems and there is no such thing as perfect balance, but watching millionaires cry every few years that they aren't paid enough to throw a baseball while they outearn 99%+ of Americans while living their dream is offputting.

[LincolnVT]

I heard that they were upset about cards being too expensive.

[shagrotn77]

Baseball is the only sport that basically forecasts a lockout or strike at the end of a CBA and does zero to stop it. I've always found this to be maddening. The players were completely uncompromising 2 years ago when the owners were trying to schedule a season while Covid was in its infancy. They continue to ask for more and want to do less. And Tony Clark has become the new Donald Fehr in that he's doing his best to destroy the game that so many of us love. The owners aren't blameless, of course, but they always seem more willing to compromise than the players do. On a side note, I sure hope the runner at 2B to start extra innings is going away as they said it would. That's slow pitch softball crap that has no place in MLB.

[Bigdaddy]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Your business doesn't have an anti-trust exemption...

Exactly. Things are changing in sports and they are going in the athletes' favor. Just ask the NCAA. It won't be long until the anti-trust exemption goes the way of the complete game pitcher.

Owners don't get to be billionaires by giving away their money. The players will have to pry it out of their fingers.

And to answer the OP: Will baseball season being delayed etc. effect the card collecting world ? Yep, and it ain't going to be in a positive way.

[shagrotn77]

I sure hope that '52 Mantle was a reprint!

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by shagrotn77

On a side note, I sure hope the runner at 2B to start extra innings is going away as they said it would.

I hope so too. There are no words for how much I hate that rule! It completely ruined extra inning games for me.

[insidethewrapper]

2b to start an inning is total crap.

It's funny the players making millions of dollars, want the Home Run ball they hit given back to them by the fans etc ( for nothing). OK, they give a bat and sign it ( nothing out of the pocket ). Max is making over $ 1 million per game pitched. These guys now only pitch about 32 games a year (5-7 innings ea) .

Talk about competitive teams. when I grew up Detroit never had a chance, it was always the NY Yankees, year after year, and KC would give them any player they wanted. Was that the good old days, when only a couple of team could win the World Series, now many teams have won in the 21st Century.

[todeen]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

I guess everyone sees things differently. If I own a business, I can set my price on an item and set my salary wages. If it is not competitive with the business down the street I will go out of business. If the wages are poor , I will not have many employees etc. The market dictates. I think the owner should make these decisions and not the employees.

Here's an analogy that fits since you want to talk as a business owner: inflation has far exceeded the minimum wage increase, yet profits have sored st the same time, and now players have an opportunity to narrow the gap that was created. Just like in real life, this can be compared to the fight for $15, or all the teacher strikes the last 5 years around the country. When workers get left behind, workers get aggravated.

First, MLB minimum salary is the lowest among NFL, NBA, and NHL. In current negotiations, players requested making as much as 3rd place NHL. Owners said no. MLB is the #1 sport that relies on minimum salary players. In 2019, minimum salary earners were roughly 55% of all rostered players. That discrepancy really puts the onus on MLBPA to increase minimum salary because so many players are at the bottom. Additionally, owners have weaponized WAR, recognizing that the best years of a player are often still within the original contract signed as a draft pick. Thus there is little monetary incentive to offer contracts to average or above average veteran players. There is no ROI. Owners have obviously colluded to reduce free agent earnings... remember the year no free agents were signed over the winter of 2018-19? Some players created their own spring training group waiting to be picked up. This collusion has led to four consecutive years of falling average salary.

At the same time, gambling advertising has unleashed a flood of new money that MLB hopes to tap into. And the new sportst card contract should also bring in new money. Further, owners are requesting MLBPA okays ads on uniforms which will bring in hundreds of millions. They will see a windfall of money when the CBA is signed. I'm baffled by the owners resistance to negotiate in good faith. No matter what they give players, the owners will walk away winners.

The MLBPA has to take action now to protect their future. There is a lot at stake! I'm certain it will mean no All Star game unless owners give in. I don't see players crumbling on their requests. I fully support the draft lottery, a minimum team salary, and punishments for tanking / draft pick rewards for competitive teams. They made a lot of mistakes in negotiations the last two or three CBAs that owners have manipulated. They seek to remedy a few of those.

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[insidethewrapper]

I see the owners have offered a $ 615,000 minimum salary and the players union is at $ 715,000. Not a bad job.

[todeen]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

I see the owners have offered a $ 615,000 minimum salary and the players union is at $ 715,000. Not a bad job.

NHL at #3 of the big four is at $750k. The owners offer of $615k is a slap in the face. You can argue that it's a nice salary, but it continues to pull the best talent away from MLB. Why would other Kyler Murrays choose baseball over football? They won't. And it negatively affects every MLB fan.

It's the same argument that public education is facing right now. Big money has convinced states to pay teachers less and less, and require more and more. And now college kids are making the choice that teaching "just isn't worth it professionally." It will negatively affect everyone including business.

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[Jim65]

Both sides suck. What pisses me off is there will be some sort of compromise eventually yet they feel the need to play the "my dick is bigger" game.

The longer they hold out, the worse it will get for the players. The players are bragging about solidarity when they aren't losing paychecks yet. Not every player makes multi millions and what happens when the league minimum guys have no paycheck and the mortgage is due? Maybe Gerrit Cole can hire them to clean his pool.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by todeen

NHL at #3 of the big four is at $750k.

The NHL also has a cap and maximum salary for players. Would the MLBPA agree to those same rules?

[Leon]

I agree both sides suck. Since I quit watching after the strike in 1994 I have cared not one iota about MLB. I think it all sucks. And I don't think it will affect our vintage baseball cards either.

.

[FrankWakefield]

I like college basketball. Have zero interest in the NBA. I liked it when the NBA players went out on strike, I didn't have to suffer through basketball scores and news when watching sports news.

I do care about baseball. There's a lot of everyone is right, here. I think there's lingering frustration among owners and players with how COVID affected the game 2019-2022.

The owners spend a lot of money supporting minor league development. Most of those players don't get to the parent club. And one way to recoup some of that is with the minimum salaries and caps as a player comes up to the majors. The recent cutback on minor league teams was a step by the owners to reduce the number of minor league players in the pipeline (by making the pipe smaller) so that the owners' outlay is less. I think the players should latch onto the 615k minimum. But that doesn't help players who are established in the majors. The interests of rookies and stars are not consistent.

An outright salary cap won't work, it won't last. A day would come when on or more of the cash plush teams wants to outbid for a star free agent. Owners will shoot themselves in their feet.

It's a mess. I well understand the growing disinterest in 21st century baseball by many of us, I'm a bit that way. My second thought, a week ago or so, when I read that the owners suggested that they try federal mediation, was that they were only suggesting it because they knew the players wouldn't go for it. The players didn't. I feel a little sorry for the older players who were gonna go one more final season and add to their stat totals... they leave a lot of money on the table if they don't play; and I believe that they also leave money on the table if they play a truncated season.

It's a mess. Still, it doesn't diminish the amazing career ow WW II hero Warren Spahn. So I can survive the mess, just as I did in 1994 and 1981.

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by Leon

I agree both sides suck. Since I quit watching after the strike in 1994 I have cared not one iota about MLB. I think it all sucks. And I don't think it will affect our vintage baseball cards either.

.

100% agree.

Most people I talk to, who are casual fans and not rabid or passionate about it, think baseball today is awful, a shell of it's former self. The pre-94 era is held in high regard, including cards. I can't see vintage cards affected, not only for that, but the old cards aren't getting any newer and there just aren't that many of them to begin with.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Completely agree. It's 100% on the owners.

One of the main things the players are upset about is the manipulation of service time. Kris Bryant is the poster child for that. Teams hold off bringing up players that are clearly ready for the majors until after a certain date so they can get another year of that player's services before free agency. It's anti-competitive, it artificially lowers salaries, and it's just wrong.

Along with that, players are also upset that teams are tanking. And, as always, they're upset that teams who receive revenue sharing aren't spending it on players as they're supposed to.

It's also worth noting that MLB cut the draft in size and eliminated 1/4 of all minor league teams - just because. What they've done to minor league baseball is just criminal.

I'm wondering if the opposite will happen now that they've gotten rid of so much of the minor leagues.
Especially if they don't limit draft bonuses.
I can easily see players brought up well before they're really ready and some really good ones failing.

[benge610]

Originally Posted by Leon

I agree both sides suck. Since I quit watching after the strike in 1994 I have cared not one iota about MLB. I think it all sucks. And I don't think it will affect our vintage baseball cards either.

.

I'm in that camp. I keep an ear on the tracks, should there be an item of interest, ex. Starling Marte, etc. but the grand game can carry on as it may; much of my passion involves baseball history and how it affects card collecting anyway.

Ben

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by todeen

NHL at #3 of the big four is at $750k. The owners offer of $615k is a slap in the face. You can argue that it's a nice salary, but it continues to pull the best talent away from MLB. Why would other Kyler Murrays choose baseball over football? They won't. And it negatively affects every MLB fan.

It's the same argument that public education is facing right now. Big money has convinced states to pay teachers less and less, and require more and more. And now college kids are making the choice that teaching "just isn't worth it professionally." It will negatively affect everyone including business.

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There will always be a sport/job that is the lowest paid. That is no reason for anyone to get a pay increase.

The players and owners are both doing way better than good. I vote lower the damn ticket prices. The average fan can't afford to take the family to a game and enjoy some stadium food.

[Rich Klein]

BTW that was a real 1952 Topps Mantle which was burned. The card store owner who burned the cards was quite specific about making sure everyone knew that it was "THE" card.

Rich

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I vote lower the damn ticket prices. The average fan can't afford to take the family to a game and enjoy some stadium food.

For affordability, minor league games are where it's at. It's really, really unfortunate that they killed so many MiLB teams to save a few bucks...

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by todeen

NHL at #3 of the big four is at $750k. The owners offer of $615k is a slap in the face.

NHL at #3 while playing half as many games under far worse TV contracts and lower attendance.

MLB's minimum salary is way, way too low in comparison to the other leagues.

[Frank A]

The truth of the matter is that if you broke your ass doing heavy construction as I did, you will call the players greedy bastards. What the hell do these guys want. Half a million or one million is not enough for these guys to bother to play. The hell with them. Send them home and get some new guys. Who needs their shit. Tell the players union to go to hell. Start a new league. Just a bunch of grownup brats.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Frank A

The truth of the matter is that if you broke your ass doing heavy construction as I did, you will call the players greedy bastards. What the hell do these guys want. Half a million or one million is not enough for these guys to bother to play. The hell with them. Send them home and get some new guys. Who needs their shit. Tell the players union to go to hell. Start a new league. Just a bunch of grownup brats.

This sounds like bitterness and jealous talking. Lots of people bust their tails doing hard work but don't think the players are greedy. Especially since the players aren't refusing to play. Why shouldn't the players get as much as they can? Their activities generate billions of dollars in profits - why shouldn't they enjoy a large slice of that?

[Jstottlemire1]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

Why are they not playing baseball and compromising ? It can't be the players want more money. The contracts this past year are unbelievable. What is the biggest issue ? Are these guys in the real world ? Will baseball season being delayed etc. effect the card collecting world ? I know I'm fed up with these guys. Let's Play Ball.

It’s more about the minor leaguers. Those fellas are making less than minimum wage at least a very large majority. They make on average between 8-14k a year. Well below poverty level.

[scotgreb]

Not picking a side here but I have always felt that the capital that ownership has invested/ at risk is underappreciated. Of course, most have large unrealized capital gains in these franchises but it is still a very large amount of capital tied up in the "business" nonetheless. That capital could be deployed in infinite other productive assets. By comparison, players have nothing invested other than their talent -- which has no comparative value outside of baseball.

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[ASF123]

The owners offer of $615k is a slap in the face.

Uh-oh. If an offer of 86% of asking price is a slap in the face, I've inadvertently slapped a bunch of eBay sellers in the face. Sorry about that!

[Seven]

Originally Posted by scotgreb

Not picking a side here but I have always felt that the capital that ownership has invested/ at risk is underappreciated. Of course, most have large unrealized capital gains in these franchises but it is still a very large amount of capital tied up in the "business" nonetheless. That capital could be deployed in infinite other productive assets. By comparison, players have nothing invested other than their talent -- which has no comparative value outside of baseball.

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That is true, but do we, the fans pay to see the owners or the players?

I think also, realistically speaking, Teams nowadays aren't really used as a single source of income, as they once were. I am sure there are exceptions to this, but most of the owners, especially the ones that have entered the sport in recent years, are ones that are already established Billionaires. I think we're more likely to see the Steve Cohen, Art Moreno types rather than someone like Bill Veeck.

This also fuels my point concerning teams being competitive, and what the players are complaining about. The current luxury tax system allows the money to be redistributed to teams with lower payrolls, and the owners are simply just allowed, to pocket the money, rather than fielding a competitive team. Bob Nutting, who is worth over One Billion Dollars is a prime example of this. And While undoubtedly I'm sure some players, prefer to play under the lights of Chicago, NY, Boston or LA, He is perfectly capable of offering Carlos Correa or Freddie Freeman a fat contract, but chooses not to because he'd rather line his pockets.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by Frank A

The truth of the matter is that if you broke your ass doing heavy construction as I did, you will call the players greedy bastards. What the hell do these guys want. Half a million or one million is not enough for these guys to bother to play. The hell with them. Send them home and get some new guys. Who needs their shit. Tell the players union to go to hell. Start a new league. Just a bunch of grownup brats.

Let's say in the next 5 years, your company signs on several new contracts for quadruple what they've made in the last 5 years. They don't need more guys, just the same guys to do the same amount of work. They reward you with 2-3% annual raises. Are you happy??

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Seven

This also fuels my point concerning teams being competitive, and what the players are complaining about. The current luxury tax system allows the money to be redistributed to teams with lower payrolls, and the owners are simply just allowed, to pocket the money, rather than fielding a competitive team. Bob Nutting, who is worth over One Billion Dollars is a prime example of this. And While undoubtedly I'm sure some players, prefer to play under the lights of Chicago, NY, Boston or LA, He is perfectly capable of offering Carlos Correa or Freddie Freeman a fat contract, but chooses not to because he'd rather line his pockets.

There's also the matter of how team "wealth" is determined. The Twins are considered a low money team but are owned by the Pohlad family who are (or were - haven't checked recently) one of the richest owners in the majors.

[John1941]

Originally Posted by Jstottlemire1

It’s more about the minor leaguers. Those fellas are making less than minimum wage at least a very large majority. They make on average between 8-14k a year. Well below poverty level.

+1 Totally agree.

[5-Tool Player]

Greed, Greed & Greed .....plain and simple

All hands on both sides are dirty

[todeen]

Originally Posted by ASF123

Uh-oh. If an offer of 86% of asking price is a slap in the face, I've inadvertently slapped a bunch of eBay sellers in the face. Sorry about that!

I'm not sure your math is correct. Current minimum is $570k. Union asked for about $200k more, to a minimum wage of $775k. Owners offered $615, or $45k more than current salary. My math says they offered slightly less than 25% of asking. And yes, most sellers will be upset with just 25%.

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[toledo_mudhen]

Originally Posted by Leon

I agree both sides suck. Since I quit watching after the strike in 1994 I have cared not one iota about MLB. I think it all sucks. And I don't think it will affect our vintage baseball cards either.

.

zackly! +1

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by todeen

I'm not sure your math is correct. Current minimum is $570k. Union asked for about $200k more, to a minimum wage of $775k. Owners offered $615, or $45k more than current salary. My math says they offered slightly less than 25% of asking. And yes, most sellers will be upset with just 25%.

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Its worse than that. Players make 570K and owners are offering 615K, thats roughly a 7.9% raise.

[ASF123]

Originally Posted by todeen

I'm not sure your math is correct. Current minimum is $570k. Union asked for about $200k more, to a minimum wage of $775k. Owners offered $615, or $45k more than current salary. My math says they offered slightly less than 25% of asking. And yes, most sellers will be upset with just 25%.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

You were responding to a post that stated "I see the owners have offered a $ 615,000 minimum salary and the players union is at $ 715,000," which seemed accurate from a quick Google check. If it's not, I stand corrected.

The players definitely have legitimate gripes, especially the need to raise salaries for early-career players, which of course raising the minimum would help with. I support the players on that. But at least from what I've seen the parties aren't actually that far apart on that issue. They're a lot further apart on other issues.

On the baseball websites I follow, the commentary is about 98% anti-owner, and often militant, exaggerated and ill-informed. I don't think that's helpful.