Funky Exhibit Auctions

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Posted By: Scott Mt. Joy

Hi all,

I have been watching a couple exhibit auctions and I'm not sure they are on the up and up, wanted to see what you all thought. It looks to me like shilling with 2 accounts, esp since one is private, same two bidding on them all. The odd thing is he is doing it on a bunch that have reserves???? I have an interest in a couple of the cards but my gut tells me to avoid. What do you think?? Just dont want to go crazy, hate to miss on something I want/need but dont want to get suckered in for a too high price because of shilling. Here are a couple of the auctions (you can search 1922 exhibits and get the full list of about 20 cards, has a lot more other years too)-

http://cgi.ebay.com/1922-EXHIBITS-CHARLES-RIGLER-UMPIRE-TOUGH-CARD-PSA-6_W0QQitemZ310074054400QQihZ021QQcategoryZ31718QQs sPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem>

http://cgi.ebay.com/1922-EXHIBITS-GEORGE-CUTSHAW-PSA-5_W0QQitemZ310074054131QQihZ021QQcategoryZ31718QQs sPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem>

http://cgi.ebay.com/1922-EXHIBITS-MOSES-YELLOWHORSE-PSA-3_W0QQitemZ310074050609QQihZ021QQcategoryZ31718QQs sPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem>

Sorry for the long urls, need to learn how to do the short url thing.

Thanks for the help

****edited title*****

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Posted By: Robert Klevens

Not sure about shill bidding, but if you want to shorten the links just put the item number at the end like this.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=310074054400
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=310074054131

Hope that helps.

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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

That is some wierd bidding. Not so much the shilling aspect but the reserves on those 1922's are unbelievable. I have dealt with roomn8 before and evrything was smooth, but the high reserve and the almost equally high bids are strange to say the least. I haven't seen any 1922's sell for those types of prices previously.

In the past when I have seen situations like this, I have thought maybe that he really doesn't want to sell them (yet), but would like to give the appearance that the set is in really high demand (in order to reap potential benefits upon a later date with a relist). Obviously though that would be pure speculation, and as I said before I have only had smooth transactions with them in the past.

I have a PSA 7 Dana Fillingim, maybe I will list it later and see if I can get 1/5th what his 5.5 is going for (nearly $1000).
-Rhett

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Posted By: Scott Mt. Joy

Thanks for the info Robert

Thanks Rhett, thats along the lines I was thinking. I have sold a couple 1921's 1/1 in the last 6 months that were PSA 5 or 6 and didnt get even get close to his bid price and thats with 2 whales bidding and winning. I even have an SGC 84 up at half their price now and it doesnt even have a bid yet with less time left.

The other thing when you look at the bid history on the non private one, 60% of their bids over the last month have been to only that seller.

Just doesnt look right, bummed because he has nice cards.

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Posted By: Jim VB

That seller has posted here in the past. Maybe we can get an explanation from him.

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Posted By: Dave Haas

As an exhibit collector, I've noticed 3 whales bidding lately, one of whom is the Lone Star Collection who only bids with snipes and almost always wins. He recently bought 6-8 1921 Exhibits for 3-4 times their real value. My set was #2 on PSA and now is #3. He is focusing only on PSA 5's or better and recently this particular Seller has been selling many Exhibits PSA 5 or better. The other two whales bid up the cards before his snipes or ultimately win the ones he isn't interested in. Stay out til the whales finish feeding.

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Posted By: Scott Mt. Joy

I hear ya Dave, I have sold to the whales recently and they always sniped, and in those auctions I never got a bid from either of the two bidders that have bumped these PSA 5-6 to over a grand apiece. Just seems fishy, would be nice to hear from the seller because he is losing some bidders over this.

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Posted By: Scott Mt. Joy

Not sure what to make of this, just got a bid from the private user on one of my auctions??? I'm guessing someone is reading this post, guess worse case if they win I will know if they are in the same town.

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Posted By: Matt

I believe you can block private FB users if you want to.

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Posted By: Steve Murray

I'm not familiar with "private users". I know there are users whose feedback is "private" and I know of sellers who "protect" bidders identies but having someone bid on your auctions and you as a seller don't know who it is just can't be, can it?

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Posted By: Scott Mt. Joy

Hi Steve, I guess I should have said they have their feedback set to private so you have no idea what they have bid on and won before. Since they bid on my auction I do see that they have 799 with 100% but I cant see anything else. Not being able to see feedback seems to make it even easier to cover up if in fact you are shilling.

I did get an email from a board member who said the seller takes consignments and is on the up and up. He thinks the bids are from the consignors who are bidding up their own lots, that sounds very possible and would explain whats going on.

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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

I will say again that I have only had smooth transactions with the seller. However, the strangest part of this whole situation to me is the reserves on the cards. Why would there be reserves approaching $2000 on PSA 4-5 1922 Exhibits? Where would you even get that price range from? Just seems a little bizarre.
-Rhett

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Posted By: Dave Haas

Last week this seller had a 1921 Exhibit Babe Ruth in a PSA 6 with a reserve price on it. Lone Star bid up to $5400 (wow) and never did reach the reserve. I'm sure it will come up for sale again but how could you not accept $5400 for it. Crazy!

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Posted By: Tim Newcomb

Sounds like Scott got it here:
_________________________
I did get an email from a board member who said the seller takes consignments and is on the up and up. He thinks the bids are from the consignors who are bidding up their own lots, that sounds very possible and would explain whats going on.
_________________________

It's got to be consignors bidding on their own stuff-- no one is paying like that for Exhibits-- even the ones from this seller that are graded 3 and 4 are ridiculously high! And not a single one with a met reserve????

Maybe the seller is on the up and up, but if I were a dealer taking consignments, I would say NO WAY to a consignor who required ridiculous reserves and then bid up his own stuff. It's the dealer who will lose out in terms of reputation. I for one would think long and hard before dealing with him after all this.

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Posted By: Daniel

Hi All,

A member of the board brought this thread to my attention and I thought I should reply. There are 4 very strong buyers for PSA graded Exhibits right now. One of them happens to be someone I had been selling to privately and he has placed bids on many of those I have listed. He is an incredibly aggressive buyer. There is another bidder who has done business with me who is also bidding but I was not aware he was as interested in Exhibits as his bids reflect. Since yesterday I have been trying to figure out if he is affiliated with the consignor in some way due to an email I had received. I am not sure I will ever get a definite answer to that query.

I do not permit my consignors, if they have eBay accounts, to bid on their own auctions. This particular consignor, who does not have an eBay account, insisted on using incredibly high reserves thinking he was going to capture some of the recent activity around this issue since he had me selling these privately, ungraded, for a small fraction of what they bring on eBay. The reserves he has picked are not going to be met.

And finally, the author of this thread has done business with me and it would have been nice had he contacted me directly or at a very minimum titled his thread differently absent having more information. Also someone misstated that I have cards in 4's that are close to $2,000. That is not accurate.

Feel free to email me if you have any questions.

Daniel

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Posted By: Scott Mt. Joy

Thanks for the reply Daniel, I have been happy with the recent purchases I have done with you but those auctions have never had the early bidding like the ones you have up now.

I'm sorry but it sure looks bad from the outside, every auction you have has been bid up by two bidders to extreemly high numbers and thats why I posted here. I say this as someone who also sells high end exhibits and does not get even close to those bids and thats selling to Spence, Louchios, etc (excellent customers btw).

I hope you find out whats up because it sure looks like your consignors are bidding.

Good luck

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Posted By: D. Bergin

The reserves he has picked are not going to be met.


Forgive the question Daniel but why as a seller would you agree to consign an item to auction on Ebay you don't expect to reach the reserve?

Simple economics, if you happen to have a $1000 reserve on these items thats about a $15 fee just to list one item right there, if you have a $2000 reserve that's about a $25 fee per card.

By my count you have 22 1922's with reserves. That seems like a pretty big hit to take as a consignee for cards you don't expect to sell.

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Posted By: Matt

Dave - I would imagine there is a fee to consign whether the reserve is met or not that would cover the fees.

The better question is why would roomn8 allow this as it seems to be "market shilling." Let me define:
Market shilling is the practice of creating false demand for a card in hopes of driving up a future sale price in another auction or sale. It is a term I just invented. I'm sure there is some more correct term for it. Hypothetically, the owner of the card, lists it with an insanely high reserve, then shills it up for the purposes of:
1) Exposing how high the other bidder is willing to go
2) Creating a false sense of demand for the card

If roomn8 knew that the reserve prices were way to high is it OK to play naive as to why the seller would do that?

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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

Daniel, Thanks for coming on here and explaining he situation, from your perspective. I'm sorry if I overestimated your reserves earlier, but even you admitted the reserves were pretty unrealistic. Your client is obviously free to set his reserve where he wishes, but it does look somewhat strange to those on the outside looking in.
-Rhett

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Posted By: cmoking

Dave wrote: "Last week this seller had a 1921 Exhibit Babe Ruth in a PSA 6 with a reserve price on it. Lone Star bid up to $5400 (wow) and never did reach the reserve. I'm sure it will come up for sale again but how could you not accept $5400 for it. Crazy! "

I don't know if it is the same one, but the one in REA in May went for $5287.50. If it is the same card, it doesn't surprise me at all that the owner/seller is looking for more than he paid.

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/auction/2008/498.html

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Posted By: Daniel

Dave,

My consignment agreement requires consignors to pay all listing fees. These auctions are a perfect example as to why I do that.

Matt,

Where is it that I wrote it was ok for a consignor to bid on his own auctions? I stated I was trying to determine if one of the bidders was in fact put up to that from my consignor. My relationships with my consignors is largely based on mutual trust. When that is violated the relationship ends. If I find that to be the case here, the relationship will end. Not much else I can do aside from asking questions, is there?

As far as the reserves being too high. I think they are too high but we did in fact sell most of those we listed over the last couple of weeks.

Daniel

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Posted By: Matt

Daniel - thanks for coming on and clarifying your position. Clearly you have stated that if the consignor admits to shilling up his listing you will not stand for it, which is a good step.

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Posted By: Daniel

Matt,

If I find I am not comfortable with the information I gather regarding this consignor, then he and I will no longer work together. He has denied all involvement and I want to be certain of that.


Cmoking,

That is a different Ruth but thanks for posting it to validate the value.


Daniel

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Posted By: boxingcardman

No more record prices on Exhibit cards! My surf, my waves, go home!

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: Scott Mt. Joy

This is why I have issues-

Your Auction for "1922 EXHIBITS SHERROD SMITH PSA 3" has 2 bids (same 2 bidders as all your auctions) and is at $224.5 with reserve not met.

Looking at VCP on last sales of this card we see-

ON 1/27/08 same card but an SGC 84 (7) 4 grades higher sold for $259.95

ON 3/11/08 same card but a PSA 4 one grade higher sold for $49.95

ON 5/11/08 same card but a PSA 5 two grades higher sold for $168.50 (to a whale too)



It's one thing for a 1/1 highest graded to get some crazy prices but not a common card like this. I hope this helps you get to the bottom of this.

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Posted By: cmoking

Why don't one of you Exhibit owners test it out and put out a similar card and see what happens?

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Posted By: Daniel

Scott,

As I stated earlier, one of the bidders is without a doubt a 100% legitimate buyer. The interest of the other bidder is still in question. As I have stated to someone in an email, I cannot explain bidding patterns or prices. I appreciate the data you have posted but if you look at some of the completed auctions in which the reserves were met, it might tell you something else.

I am not interested in having a short stay on ebay so I will continue to do everything I can to make sure auctions are run fairly. I appreciate being given the chance to respond. Hope this alleviates some of your concerns.

And I think Cmoking's idea is a great one!!!

Daniel

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

Count me among the skeptics. I know timing is everything, but I sold two common 1922 Exhibits in PSA 7 less than two months ago, and received exactly one bidder on each for my opening price of $149.99. I don't profess to know all the nuances of that set, but I damn sure know that PSA 7s are not readily available and that when common 5s are not meeting a four-figure reserve, something ain't passing the smell test.

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Posted By: D. Bergin

Dave,

My consignment agreement requires consignors to pay all listing fees. These auctions are a perfect example as to why I do that.


Thanks for the explanation Daniel.

I've dabbled in accepting consignments myself but tried to keep it simple with flat percentages on the winning bids. I wouldn't accept items if the consignor wanted a reserve and would usually just point them to one of the bigger auction houses if they weren't comfortable with getting whatever the market would bear at the time.

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Posted By: Daniel

Todd,

There is only one common 5 that has not reached the four figure reserve and it is the only example graded. I am not going to defend the reserves, as I was against them, however they were picked, from my understanding, based on the limited previous sales information, population figures and an emphasis on the recent flurry of activity surrounding Exhibits.

I have no problem with people being skeptical however making sweeping generalizations and misstating facts is not really fair to me.

Daniel

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

Actually, you have several commons, not one currently bid at well over four figures, although only two are PSA 5. NONE of these are meeting reserve, and as others have noted, the bidding seems odd:

Walter Mails PSA 5 $1136
Val Picinich PSA 6 $1224
Bill Piercey PSA 6 $1136
Darrill Pratt PSA6.5 $1615
Aaron Ward PSA 6 $1224

You also have many others reaching in the several hundred dollars that aren't meeting reserve, all very much at odds with the above recent sales data I provided. I have to say that I was hoping to garner up to $400-$500 each for my two PSA 7s in late June and may be a bit unhappy about getting about 1/3 of that, but to set reserves this high for these cards on some sort of notion that the market for them is hot right now seems unfounded to me, and I stand by remarks that something doesn't pass the smell test here.

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Posted By: jdrum

Has also been used in the past to see what the card would bring theoretically. Then if the seller was pleased with the amount, he could sell it to the high bidder in an off ebay transaction and save the final value fees. I don't know if you can do this anymore but I had it tried on me several times in the past.

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Posted By: Scott Mt. Joy

I have no problem with the reserves, no matter what they were set at. Its the bidding and if you know one of them, they are getting ripped off. I just think you have 22 1922 exhibits that are at the highest prices ever (more than higher graded same cards too) and yet not one of them has hit the reserve, seems like someone bidding knows what the reserves are.

This next price makes no sense to me as I have sold 3 of these in the last 2 years-

1922 EXHIBITS EPPA RIXEY PSA 4 Currently bid at $551 without hitting reserve

Past VCP auctions Same card,Same grade-

11/25/06 $67
8/23/07 $99
2/26/08 $81
4/20/08 $86

Now how is yours at $551 much less not hitting the reserve?

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Posted By: Daniel

Scott,

I understand your position. I have stated I am looking into the situation and I will try to get to the bottom of it. Is there something more you would like me to do? Any information you have that might assist me would be much appreciated if sent via email. If you think you are frustrated imagine how I must feel.

Daniel

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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

Normally I would never point out my own item on ebay on this board but I have listed my 1922 Exhibits Dana Fillingim PSA 7 for just slightly less than the price yours was going for which was graded a PSA 5.5

We should be able to see whether the buyer was legit, as he can now have a 1.5 grade bump for the same price he was willing to pay. If it sells I will be happy with the price & will eat crow, if it doesn't, it would raise a few questions.

-Rhett

Leon (& other moderators) if this post breaks forum rules and you want to erase it, go for it.

Link:
http://cgi.ebay.com/1922-EXHIBITS-Dana-Fillingim-PSA-7-Low-Pop_W0QQitemZ130247100234QQihZ003QQcategoryZ31718Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

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Posted By: Misunderestimated (Brian H)

First of all I want to say that I have "done business" with Daniel and have consistently found him to be absolutely above board and honest and only wish that everyone else I dealt with was equally trustworthy/

As a buyer I "feel your pain" with respect to high reserves. They are frustrating and sometimes even maddening and . But when the seller (or consignor as the case may be)will only settle for high prices based on "PSA Registry scarcity," the numbers can seem absurd to anyone who isn't attuned to the current developments in a given set registry. The high reserve enables the seller to get a high dollar amount even when only one bidder is really willing to pay what anyone not intimately familiar with the population report and the current state of the set registry would (justifiably?) consider "crazy money" for an otherwise unremarkable card.

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

I don't disagree with you as a general matter, but here, I just went to the PSA registry site, and see that only three people have registered this 1922 Exhibit set. The furthest along is only 22.97% complete, and his GPA is 1.24, i.e. his cards are mostly 1s and 2s. The highest GPA is under 5, and that collector has fewer than 15% of the set. The third guy has registered exactly one card. In short, no one's breaking down the doors to be #1 on this set--no one is close to even denting it and no or very few high grade cards are dominating anyone's collection of this set. No feeding frenzy here.

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Posted By: leon

Under this circumstance I see no problem with what you are doing...good luck...

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Posted By: Scott Mt. Joy

Funny Rhett, I was thinking the same thing. I have a Rixley 4 that I would be happy to sell since the two bidders that didnt win the other one at $550 still need one and would even give them a $100 discount and put it up at $450. Will have to go up this weekend.

I did win 3 of Daniels other auctions last night that didnt have any funky bids or reserves (not 1922 exhibits) and they went for prices right in line with VCP, I'm guessing different consignors on those.

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Posted By: cmoking

Great test! What are the odds it really sells with actual money going to Rhett? I'd be happy to lay 10 to 1 against it selling. Any takers?

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Posted By: Steve Murray

lemmee see here, I put up $100 to your $1,000 then I go ahead and buy the card to win the bet does that mean I got the card free???

(You may want to retract that offer )

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Posted By: Matt

excellent Steve.

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Posted By: cmoking

Sorry Steve, max bet is $1 to keep it legal.

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Posted By: Daniel

I thought I'd share with you all that most of the lots which did not meet reserve are pending a sale to one of the bidders. The prices are being materially discounted, with my consignor’s approval, due to my inability to absolutely determine if the prices were artificially pushed up. One of the bidders, who has bought from me before, has been blocked from participating in my future auctions until I am comfortable with his intentions with respect to the Exhibit auctions. I have not decided the fate of my consignor but my suspicion is that we will no longer be working together, which seems to be a mutual decision. I sincerely appreciate those of you who have been supportive of me in what has been a horrendous situation that I wouldn't wish upon anyone.

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Posted By: jdrum

the consignor is comfortable with a number "materially" south of his reserve? Tough spot.

Wish you the best.

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Posted By: Misunderestimated (Brian H)

Todd -- You are certainly correct about the '22 Exhibits and the PSA Registry factor. Reading it over I'm not sure I explained my general idea clearly either . .

I am especially pleased that it seems (at least from what I read here) that Daniel's reputation has not been a casualty of these peculiar (or "funky"?) auctions.

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

I too am pleased by the way this appears to have been handled. I have bid on this seller's auctions, and likely will again.

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Posted By: Tim Newcomb

Here's a lovely SGC 60 1922 Exhibit with a few hours to go-- it's sitting at $10.51 with 8 hours to go. By this time the PSA 5s in roomn8's auctions a few days were already pushing four figures (before the decimal, that is) and still hadn't hit reserve. Gee, where are the "whales" now?

How can anyone claim this was not a shill situation? Ebay's new policies not to show bidder names allows shillers to work with almost total impunity-- no one knows who these shilling bidders were except the dealer to whom the cards were consigned.

As for him, I'm sorry but I think a dealer has a responsibility to offer auctions that he believes will be on the up-and-up-- and those gigantic reserves should have been a huge red flag. And why exactly has this been a "horrendous" situation for you, Daniel? Even if you sold these cards for less than the reserves, haven't you made a tremendous commission on them considering their true market value? I think the proper thing would have been to yank the auctions and send them back to your consignor (who was obviously involved in something since he set those reserves) without selling them.


<http://cgi.ebay.com/Jim-Caveney-Cincinnati-Reds-1922-Exhibit-SGC-60-EX_W0QQitemZ370076646678QQihZ024QQcategoryZ57993QQ ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

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Posted By: jdrum

The answer is simple. All the "whales" already have this one, right?

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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

Still no bids on my Fillingim, and nary a best offer to boot. Too bad, I was really hoping for a small windfall this week. Bummer!
-Rhett