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#201
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#202
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Postwar stars & HOF'ers. Bowman / Topps Cubs team sets. Last edited by jchcollins; 06-03-2019 at 09:43 AM. |
#203
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This one has very rough factory cuts top and bottom. I was a bit miffed when it came back, but after some reflection, I can see why they wouldn't slab it. To most people any oddity seems like alterations. (And with the current stuff going on, that isn't likely to change) Out of the few cards I've had rejected I got Miscut top and bottom -shown above Min size - a puzzler, as it's less short than another card in the same group was narrow (a regular card that was very nearly AB narrow. Trimmed - Yep, actually trimmed on all four borders. picked it in a rush to get one last good looking card to make 10 for a special. Totally blew that one. |
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Thanks, That's one! A few hundred more to go and we're home freeeeeeeeeee
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LOL, I will have to look but could swear that is the same handwriting on the rejection slip I originally had for my Mantle. It was some time ago...
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Postwar stars & HOF'ers. Bowman / Topps Cubs team sets. Last edited by jchcollins; 06-03-2019 at 10:06 AM. |
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Out of curiosity, where has all the money gone? Has it all gone to Moser or stayed with PWCC?
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#207
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Just follow the money...LOL. Isn't that what Deepthroat told Bob Woodward...
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Postwar stars & HOF'ers. Bowman / Topps Cubs team sets. |
#208
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How do you write Steve Sloan an email blaming Brent?
I'm not saying Brent is innocent or guilty, but my god. PSA is much more at fault than anyone who messed with these cards. PSA is paid for their service to accurately grade cards. PSA graded these "trainwrecks" I place all the blame on PSA! PSA is who put these cards back on the street with a much higher value. Again, The complete blame is PSA Either there is a very crooked grader on PSA's payroll or PSA is deeply involved. Either way, an email to Steve Sloan is kind of laughable. Last edited by aloondilana; 06-03-2019 at 11:15 AM. |
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Postwar stars & HOF'ers. Bowman / Topps Cubs team sets. Last edited by jchcollins; 06-03-2019 at 11:20 AM. |
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I personally don't believe PSA is involved in anything other than being negligent in their grading. Do I think they have knowledge that PWCC, Moser and the rest of the bums were sending in doctored cards? Nope. I think they have a bunch of overworked graders whose eyes glaze over after an hour or so of work.
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Looking for Nebraska Indians memorabilia, photos and postcards |
#211
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Like button pressed to Mr. Collins message above this
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Did they take submissions from him directly? If they did, then they at least knew him as a customer. I suppose they could say they didn't know his reputation, but again that's pretty tough to believe. If they would not accept submissions from him, then they definitely knew him and his reputation. It then wouldn't have taken much to figure out someone else was submitting on his behalf. Which one of those is worse? In either scenario, they were looking the other way in some form. |
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I said this over on BO, but I suspect PSA gave PWCC a quicker service because of their business relationship. The cards were probably mailed directly to someone high up (Orlando, Sloan, etc) and then they handed them over to grading to avoid log time. The grader probably knew it was PWCC and ran the cards through. I feel like it's a matter of PSA mistrusting PWCC. I can't see PSA knowingly grading altered cards or there being someone on the inside participating in criminal activity. Of course, I could be wrong, but this is what I'm going with until more about PSA's involvement comes out. I'm still a customer and will continue to send cards into PSA/DNA for authentication and grading. I was very close to pulling the trigger on a PSA 9 1979 OPC Gretzky on eBay before I knew what was happening and will likely not be buying anything already graded of value for awhile.
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Last edited by drcy; 06-03-2019 at 01:28 PM. |
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I agree that I don't think that PSA was knowingly involved and I also know there are others that disagree. I do believe that it is a most likely inexperienced, overworked graders that aren't catching the alterations. I also agree that that is not acceptable. That is why I believe PSA is most likely taking their time with any public response. I think in the end they will have to come out and admit to missing these alterations that were done(but will most likely point out how many they caught to help their image) and are probably trying to come up with their best position on how they are going to handle returns(if they do) and how much accountability they will have to accept. Personally, I like that they are waiting as opposed to others involved trying to get out in front and post ridiculous reasoning or doing interviews only digging bigger holes for themselves.
I've read post after post on this, opinion after opinion and I respect everyone's opinion even if I disagree with some. After trying to let this soak in and look at all angles, I have a question or two...some have been briefly touched upon. As someone mentioned, it's easy, after all of the investigation work to see the before and after of these affected cards so in hindsight we can say that all of this work should have been caught. I also know others have mentioned measuring, blacklights, ect that should be used by TPG's to catch them all. But, has anyone taken a good look at these cards in person...without having the before pics to look at, and inspected them to see the alterations? I mean, are the actual alterations easy to spot, in hand, if you weren't aware? I'm personally for TPG's having a pics go along with all cert numbers. I know that would take up a huge amount of space for a company to store them all but would be helpful in the future. Obviously not going to work for the cards already graded but maybe going forward. Next, and maybe last for now, but does the downfall of the TPG's really do any good? I know, I know, some of you despise them and all they stand for or perceive them to be the anti-Christ, that's fine, I respect your opinion. But on the flipside, we all know alterations and doctoring were going on years before the concept of TPG, hence their creation. That and nobody can agree on the actual grade of a card. But there have to be a lot of cards out there that have been worked on that have not gotten past the graders over the years. I know the list of bad cards from Moser and others is extensive, but nothing to the extent of stuff that is floating out there from the guys that were altering cards at their kitchen tables in 60's, 70's and 80's or even before that. I would still have more confidence in picking something up slabbed than I might buying it raw at a show from an unknown dealer. Either way it's a gamble, don't get me wrong. While this is a huge problem, I would like to think it only affects a very small percentage of cards that are in holders today....call me an optimist. Or, you can just call me naive and believe a conspiracy theory that every card submitted is bad and not a single card being slabbed can be trusted. In that case, I don't know why you even collect cards cause it can't be that fun for you. I will add this, while I collect many other cards, my main focus is the 1962 Jell-O set. Since there are so few collectors and even fewer numerical grades given to cards from that set, I'm pretty confident that all of mine are legit and I don't worry about them at all. You don't worry about a trimmed card when it was made to be cut by hand in the first place!!! Finally, while I don't have the time or patience to read EVERY post on BO, much appreciation goes out to the person or persons doing the work out there to expose this. Frankly, I don't know how someone would have that much time on their hands to do it, but hats off! |
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It very well could be, that card went through SGC quite a while ago. I just looked at scans I uploaded of other cards in the same batch, and they were graded in either 2009 or 2010.
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I'll say it, I don't think PSA isn't directly involved. I haven't seen any claims that the same sort of incompetence is found with submissions from people who aren't altering cards.
Unless by some magic happening, the same grossly incompetent grader gets all the submissions from the trimmers. If I sent in 100 trimmed cards, I believe most if not all would be caught. Somehow the guys trimming manage to get cards through regularly that don't even meet the min size. My daughter is 8 and I could teach her to reject those. |
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Check out https://www.thecollectorconnection.com Always looking for consignments 717.327.8915 We sell your less expensive pre-war cards individually instead of in bulk lots to make YOU the most money possible! and Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thecollectorconnectionauctions Last edited by Aquarian Sports Cards; 06-03-2019 at 01:58 PM. |
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Other than a few hostess cards when I was a kid, I haven't done that. I still have them, but I doubt they'd grade, my pocketknife was pretty dull...
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My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
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I don't think PSA was a part of any nefarious scheme, but I haven't ruled out the possibility of a rogue grader. This is pure speculation, but with so much money to be made so easily, by merely bumping the grade of a card, you can't assume it's impossible.
A half grade bump on a high grade 52T Mantle will put both of your kids through four years of college. In what other industry can that much money be made so effortlessly? |
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Investigative technique to see who will flip on who first. I wanted him to put pressure on PWCC to END ALL THEIR CURRENT AUCTIONS before PSA's liability continues to increase by more sales of altered cards in PSA slabs.
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-- PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head PSA: Regularly Get Cheated BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern SGC: Closed auto authentication business JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC Oh, what a difference a year makes. |
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